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Preparing for the "Big What if": Buying a gun
WaPo & Free Republic ^ | Sept 15, 2008 | Joe Brower

Posted on 09/15/2008 10:58:51 AM PDT by Kevmo

The Washington Post article is already being commented upon here in Free Republic.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/12/AR2008091202414

The purpose of this thread is to help Freepers and lurkers decide upon what the best mode of self defense would be in the case of the breakdown in social order such as happened with the Rodney King riots.

Joe Brower owns one of the RKBA (Right to Keep and Bear Arms) ping lists. I tried to convince him to open this vanity because he and his friends are more knowledgeable about guns. He says, "there have already been threads on the subject you mention right here on FR, although I can't locate them now. Tell you what -- you start the thread and then ping me, and I'll then flag my RKBA list for comments. I'm sure some folks in that group would be able to provide links, as well as plenty of timely advice. "

This scenario is called the SHTF scenario, where the acronym stands for $#|+ Hits The Fan. So this will be the SHTF gun thread for November 2008... Of course, gun ownership isn't for everyone. But it is the most accessible safety measure under our constitution, which is as our founding fathers intended. Recall where the police were when the Rodney King riots started: they left the scene for their own safety. If that were to happen in your neighborhood, what is your plan?


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: armedcitizen; banglist; mossberg; rkba; shallnotbeinfringed; shotguns; shtf; shtfscenario; smithandwesson; winchester
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Here are my particulars:

I live in silicon valley, in a working class neighborhood, mostly hispanic and mostly homeowners rather than renters. I have 2 kids under 9 years old, so it would be important to have a safe trigger lock thingamajiggie. For me, money is very tight right now, so I am focusing on Minimal Outlay in terms of weapon purchase and ammunition. In addition, when this all blows over and it turns out to be nothing (which I'm hoping for, like the Y2K scenario), then I would have a fun little plinker gun to go out into the woods and enjoy. So I'm thinking of buying a 0.22 rifle with a scope, maybe 1000 rounds of ammunition. I'm thinking of semi-auto, perhaps with a lever discharge. I intend to buy whatever is cheapest at Big 5 Sporting Goods or Walmart.

Please keep in mind that there are thousands of lurkers who know that they have the RKBA but are a little bit nervous about buying and owning a weapon. These are not seasoned shooters. I doubt a shotgun would be the right weapon for such neophytes.

Well, here goes. Be polite.

1 posted on 09/15/2008 10:58:52 AM PDT by Kevmo
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To: Kevmo; Joe Brower

Here’s the link to the WaPo article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/12/AR2008091202414

pinging Joe Brower


2 posted on 09/15/2008 11:00:03 AM PDT by Kevmo (Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/certifigate/index?tab=articles)
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To: Kevmo

Two certainities:

1) Obama will not be the next President

2) There will be no real “riots” as a consequence.


3 posted on 09/15/2008 11:01:11 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: ZULU

What do you mean by #2? What is a real riot versus a non-real riot, and why is “riot” in quotes? Please elaborate.


4 posted on 09/15/2008 11:03:14 AM PDT by Kevmo (Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/certifigate/index?tab=articles)
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To: Kevmo

Link not working. Article not found.


5 posted on 09/15/2008 11:03:14 AM PDT by itsthejourney (Sarah-cuda IS the right reason)
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To: ZULU

Isn’t a “quiet riot” when Al Sharpton’s people don’t make any noise when they set your Jewish-owned store on fire???


6 posted on 09/15/2008 11:03:26 AM PDT by Winged Hussar (http://moveonpleasemoveon.blogspot.com/)
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To: ZULU
Correction:

1. Obama may not be elected President

2. There will likely be riots nationwide.

7 posted on 09/15/2008 11:05:19 AM PDT by BubbaBasher (NEW: www.HypocriteLibs.org - Tracking the Slandering Liars in the MSM)
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To: Kevmo

Being a hunter, buy yourself a remington 870 shot gun (combo) it come with both deer and bird barrels the bird shot is good for maximum spead for self defense plus its one shot in the barrel and 4 in the stock.


8 posted on 09/15/2008 11:05:42 AM PDT by rstark56
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To: Kevmo

Don’t think we’ll have a problem here in small town South Alabama as 95% of us already have firearms and folks are basically sane.

But you never know.

Which makes Life interesting.


9 posted on 09/15/2008 11:06:03 AM PDT by silentreignofheroes (In my day,Flunking gym was not an option , even for Stupid Kids!)
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To: ZULU
3. I will have extra ammo on hand.
10 posted on 09/15/2008 11:06:52 AM PDT by BubbaBasher (NEW: www.HypocriteLibs.org - Tracking the Slandering Liars in the MSM)
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To: Kevmo
I can't find the article I wrote a few years back for this forum titled: "So You Want To Buy A Gun".

It shows up on a Google search, but it's not on the server anymore. I'll see if I can dig it up.

L

11 posted on 09/15/2008 11:06:52 AM PDT by Lurker (She's not a lesbian, she doesn't whine, she doesn't hate her country, and she's not afraid of guns.)
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To: ZULU

I absolutely agree with you.

Probably in some of the more violent cities in our country there will similar violence to that of when the Lakers or the Piston’s won the championship...but other than that, I believe that most on the left will get really loaded, pass out and come to the morning after and have a massive hang over — I don’t believe there will be any Jim Jones mass kool aid events or anything like that...the last time a group blindly followed a charismatic personality...


12 posted on 09/15/2008 11:07:16 AM PDT by areukiddingme1 (areukiddingme1 is a synonym for a Retired U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer and tired of liberal BS.)
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To: Kevmo

A pump shotgun is a great weapon for a neophyte. Easy to aim. Easy to load and unload. Hard hitting effective rounds. Less likely to kill a bystander with an errant shot. Intimidating. And makes a great sound as you chamber a round.


13 posted on 09/15/2008 11:07:36 AM PDT by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: Kevmo

If you are on a budget but serious about home & self-defense ... I bought a Mossberg `Maverick’ 12 gauge shotgun at Wally World for $177.00 not too long ago. The safety is on the trigger guard, like a Remington, so I could put a top folding stock on it. I also bought an 18 1/2” barrel, but the longer barrel is better. It chambers 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells. I plan to put it in my trunk right after Halloween.
Save the .22 for plinking cans and squirrels. Series.


14 posted on 09/15/2008 11:09:57 AM PDT by tumblindice (I'm sticking by my guns and voting for conservatives.)
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To: itsthejourney

Here’s the link to the Free Republic posting:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2082577/posts?page=112

Inside that post I clicked on the WaPo article and brought up this link. I don’t know why the link put up for the article title is different from this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/12/AR2008091202414.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


15 posted on 09/15/2008 11:10:17 AM PDT by Kevmo (Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/certifigate/index?tab=articles)
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To: Kevmo

Just made two purchases — a Remington 870 and a Springfield Armory XD-40. What a sweet pistol.


16 posted on 09/15/2008 11:10:55 AM PDT by Londo Molari
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To: Kevmo; ZULU
I'm not answering for ZULU, but from experiencing fighting the rioters in Newark, N.J. in '67 & '68.

They don't leave their neighborhoods, but attempt to burn & steal everything from all businesses in them. They will also shoot at any white person who happens to be there, or passing through.

17 posted on 09/15/2008 11:13:25 AM PDT by G.Mason (Duty, Honor, Country)
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To: dangerdoc

I think you meant, point, not aim...You aim a rifle, you point a shotgun. Been shooting them all my life, and taught it for the last 15 years.


18 posted on 09/15/2008 11:14:26 AM PDT by graywaiter (Gotta love those gun tote'n mommas.......)
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To: Kevmo
I wanted this for Christmas but yikes the price!
19 posted on 09/15/2008 11:15:39 AM PDT by LimaLimaMikeFoxtrot ("If you don't have my army supplied, and keep it supplied, we'll eat your mules up, sir"-Gen.Sherman)
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To: Kevmo

http://www.ar-15-parts.com/


20 posted on 09/15/2008 11:16:25 AM PDT by Ouderkirk (I will not vote for Obama not because he is black, but because he is RED)
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To: dangerdoc; All

I’d second the opinion in the Rem 870 combo. Don’t need to take any stupid test (as for handgun ownership here in CA), reasonably affordable, durable, the newer modles have a safety lock that requires a special tool to disable, ammo is cheap and readily available (use #4 buck for crowd control), easy to maintain. You can also take up skeet or trap with the long barrel if you like. The only other alternative is any of the “security” shottys that Big 5 carry. They’re a little cheaper (and maybe not as solidly built, but still safe) but they all come with the 18.5” barrel which isn’t useful for bird shooting.

Oh, BTW, Obama will win CA, but McCain/Palin will win the general...and there will be no riots anywhere.


21 posted on 09/15/2008 11:16:34 AM PDT by rmccullo
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To: Lurker

So You’re Thinking of Buying a Gun
Sierra Times ^ | 11.27.01 | Sunni Maravillosa

Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 8:59:52 AM by

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/578959/posts

Lurker
So You Want To Buy A Gun: http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a380ac90132ec.htm. So You Want To Buy A Gun: http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a380ac90132ec.htm ...
www.freerepublic.com/~lurker/links?U=%2Ftag%2F*%2Findex - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Americans saying with wallet, “We feel safer when armed”
So You Want To Buy A Gun. Enjoy. L. 37 posted on 09/29/2001 6:11:54 PM PDT by Lurker. [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies] ...
www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3bb6596c6f86.htm - 54k - Cached - Similar pages


22 posted on 09/15/2008 11:17:08 AM PDT by Kevmo (Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/certifigate/index?tab=articles)
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To: Kevmo

Second the 12 ga. pump recommendations. Take up sporting clays for entertainment.


23 posted on 09/15/2008 11:17:22 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: G.Mason

And then they complain when stores and other businesses don’t want to located in their neighborhoods.


24 posted on 09/15/2008 11:17:56 AM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (Thirty democrat attorneys are in Alaska "investigating" Gov. Palin....how many are in Chicago?)
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To: rstark56

Being a hunter,
***I’m not a hunter.


25 posted on 09/15/2008 11:18:05 AM PDT by Kevmo (Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/certifigate/index?tab=articles)
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To: Kevmo
A few pieces of info for you. A .22 has NO stopping power. It will only piss them off and they will get you before you can load the next round.

Keep the weapon out of reach of the kids and teach them not to touch it or go near it. A locked gun is useless for self defense.

The reason there were no Y2K disasters is because thousands of people like me worked countless hours to fix the problems before the event. The threat and the problems were real.

The threat of riots is real too. The only way to deal with it is to be prepared. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

26 posted on 09/15/2008 11:18:22 AM PDT by BubbaBasher (NEW: www.HypocriteLibs.org - Tracking the Slandering Liars in the MSM)
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To: Kevmo
What the neophytes need to do is to think, but not to the point of paralysis.

If you live in a large urban area, work in a large urban area or visit a large urban area, you need to pay attention to what is going on and the big “IF” in November. That's number one.

I would suggest to my non-gun owning friends that you sit down and truly look with an objective eye regarding the situation. Can I defend my property if I have to do so? Can I defend the lives of my family if I have to do so?
What are the risks of major rioting and or other upheaval near me?

Shotguns are good for personal defense if you understand the limitations. A .22 rifle is nice for plinking cans and bottles, and I guess in a pinch if you got off a very good shot, you might get lucky. Personally, I would not bother.

My suggestion would be a bolt action rifle, a small revolver and a 9mm or .45 automatic pistol. If you are not familiar with firearms, take a class. Practice. Practice. Practice. Understand that it is a tool, and always treat every thing that even looks like a gun as a loaded weapon.

Good luck to all.

27 posted on 09/15/2008 11:19:17 AM PDT by alarm rider (Peace! through superior fire power....)
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To: rstark56
Being a hunter, buy yourself a remington 870 shot gun

Blech.

Now don't get me wrong. The 870 is a fine weapon. For hunting. I have one and wouldn't get rid of it.

But when seconds count, I don't want to be fumbling for that silly little button the the trigger guard.

Get a Mossberg 500. The safety is on top, you push it toward the bad guy to shoot.

Plus, the Model 500 is the only shotgun to pass the US Army's Mil-Spec 3443E test.

28 posted on 09/15/2008 11:19:24 AM PDT by Knitebane (Happily Microsoft free since 1999.)
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To: Kevmo

Best firearms for defending oneself in a”riot”?

I cast my vote for two (both carried at the same time):

1) A pump action 12 gauge shotgun with plenty of 00Buck shells.

2) A .357 mag revolver with a couple speed-loaders and plenty of extra ammunition.

I’ll certainly not argue with those who are more comfortable with a semi-auto pistol like the good-ol’ .45 ACP (with several spare magazines and, as before, plenty of extra ammo), but I think the shotgun is absolutley indespensible in a “close-in” situation. The police don’t call their short-barreled pump actions “riot guns” for nothing.


29 posted on 09/15/2008 11:19:54 AM PDT by WayneS (Vote Obama bin Biden 2008 - "Because the world doesn't suck enough yet".)
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To: graywaiter

OK, so can a “civvy” buy one of those 18(?) rd tube magazined Remington 12 guages?


30 posted on 09/15/2008 11:20:54 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Kevmo
The purpose of this thread is to help Freepers and lurkers decide upon what the best mode of self defense would be in the case of the breakdown in social order

Too late for all that.

The government has already perpetrated a coast to coast lawless violent invasion by allowing into the country upwards of 40 million illegal aliens...

While at the same time forcing the working class to subsidize the business owners illegal low wage labor. While the biz owners reap their profits from low wage illegal workers, the American working class are left twisting in the wind, paying for millions of illegals health care, food stamps, etc.

All this while the government has spent money like a drunken lotto winner.

This is a perfect example of an extreme breakdown in social order that has been building strong for over 10 years now.

31 posted on 09/15/2008 11:22:45 AM PDT by dragnet2
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To: Winged Hussar
If you have never owned a gun: buy a revolver for close in and a bolt action/lever for range ( see below)
If you don't have much $$$, buy a Ruger 10/22 and a brick of ammo...will kill game and feral humans.
If you absolutely want to kill stop a man in your home, get a 12 gauge pump-action and load it with #4 buck.
If you want to defend property outside the home, you need #00 buckshot for distance and car/garage penetration (warning: can penetrate many sheetrock walls).
If you want to defend against a mob, you will need a semi-auto with hi-cap magazines, ar-15/ak series/mini14/sks.
for two man team patrols in/around property, it's hard to beat a .357 lever action for the wife/preteens and a .357 revolver. (can shoot .38 SPL)....this is old school SHTF... But still has merits.
lastly..... For zombie defense, get a M1919a4 on tripod and set the T&E to head level ;)
32 posted on 09/15/2008 11:23:21 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: july4thfreedomfoundation

Another thing that “community organizers” harp about - the higher prices in stores in these neighborhoods.

Well, if you “community organizers” would “organize” a lower crime rate, these businesses wouldn’t have to invest in the extra security measures, have to deal with as much theft, and lower insurance rates,

then they could charge what they charge in “white” neighborhoods.


33 posted on 09/15/2008 11:23:24 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Kevmo

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper, a gun isn’t the magic wand portrayed on TV that resolves bad people by simply waving in their general direction.

Buying the cheapest one on the Walmart rack - or a $2000 tacticool M4gery for that matter - a month before a crisis and locking it up in the closet just in case is only marginally better than doing nothing at all.

The time to go out in the woods and plink is today. When making every mistake in the book doesn’t matter.


34 posted on 09/15/2008 11:24:16 AM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: ZULU; areukiddingme1; Kevmo

I tend to agree with you, but it never hurts to “Be Prepared”. Good post, Kevmo. Good advice for everyone who values life...their life...loves freedom...their freedom.

The left has ratcheted up this continuous process of warfare, psychological and political, if not militarily...yet.

I’m somewhat concerned about our candidates well-being. I would not put anything past these socialists.


35 posted on 09/15/2008 11:25:10 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: Kevmo
If it looks like McCain's going to win, rent a place in a better neighborhood for a few days.

The places that are burned or destroyed are usually small stores that are easy to loot. Stay away from them.

Riots won't last more than a few days. If you think your neighborhood will blow, go on vacation, visit the in-laws. Send the kids away.

If there's rioting, responsible blacks - including Obama - will be out there telling people to calm down. And the police will be doing their part.

It'll be fine.

Don't be bullied into voting for Obama out of fear.

36 posted on 09/15/2008 11:25:18 AM PDT by GOPJ (Am I the only person tired of bailing out multimillionaires with tax dollars?)
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To: tacticalogic

I’ve always had a 12 gauge shotgun, which I keep loaded for home safety. Recently I bought a .38 snubnose revolver, since it is easier to handle with the arthritis. The kids have home defense weapons, we’ve all grown up with firearms for hunting and defense.

We’ve never needed them, but I’d rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.


37 posted on 09/15/2008 11:25:25 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: LimaLimaMikeFoxtrot
I wanted this for Christmas

You'll shoot your eye out.

I agree with the person who said it's all in where you live. I can't see much happening in Texas where most everyone has guns and aren't afraid to use them.

38 posted on 09/15/2008 11:25:30 AM PDT by itsthejourney (Sarah-cuda IS the right reason)
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To: Kevmo

ROTFLMAO!!! The minority crowd burns down their OWN neighborhoods...not mine. “Riots”?? Fine. Those slums good use a good cleaning out.


39 posted on 09/15/2008 11:26:26 AM PDT by CodeToad
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To: DCBryan1

Have you been looking in my gun safe?

I actually HAVE at least one of each of the weapons you mentioned in your post... except the “zombie” gun. Does WANTING one of those count??


40 posted on 09/15/2008 11:27:18 AM PDT by WayneS (Vote Obama bin Biden 2008 - "Because the world doesn't suck enough yet".)
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To: MrB
Another thing that “community organizers” harp about - the higher prices in stores in these neighborhoods.

I lived on the South Side of Chicago in the 60's. A community organizer is a radical - they don't harp about "high prices".

41 posted on 09/15/2008 11:27:48 AM PDT by GOPJ (Am I the only person tired of bailing out multimillionaires with tax dollars?)
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To: july4thfreedomfoundation

Yes ... I have an aversion to even driving on any road named M.L.K. Blvd., and I sure as heck wouldn’t live, or work near one, but the I’m a white man.


42 posted on 09/15/2008 11:28:12 AM PDT by G.Mason (Duty, Honor, Country)
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To: BubbaBasher

“A .22 has NO stopping power.”

Per my Spec Ops buddies, nothing really has “stopping power”, in that a guy with a knife who gets shot with, say, a .44 magnum round, if he’s already running toward you, can still get to you and kill you before he dies if he’s within 30 feet of you.

Colonel, USAFR


43 posted on 09/15/2008 11:28:42 AM PDT by jagusafr ("Bugs, Mr. Rico! Zillions of 'em!" - Robert Heinlein)
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To: G.Mason; Kevmo; ZULU
As G. said rioters tend to stay in their local area and take it out on local business establishments.

Best defense in that case is a good defense. Lay in a good supply of food and necessities a few days prior. Listen to a good local news station and if anything happens - stay away from those parts of town even if it means a long drive around.

In the RK event people were caught as they drove through.

44 posted on 09/15/2008 11:29:08 AM PDT by PeteB570 (NRA - Life member and Black Rifle owner)
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To: Kevmo

Hi neighbor. What zip you live in? I’m in 95133. I have been preparing for a few years now. May I susgest a larger gun than the .22LR ?


45 posted on 09/15/2008 11:29:18 AM PDT by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona....)
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To: Kevmo
Repeat after me.

WE have 286,000,000 guns and 10,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition.

THEY have the ACLU, Air America, and PBS.

I do not see a problem.

46 posted on 09/15/2008 11:29:24 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: Kevmo

Hi neighbor. What zip you live in? I’m in 95133. I have been preparing for a few years now. May I susgest a larger gun than the .22LR ?


47 posted on 09/15/2008 11:29:56 AM PDT by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona....)
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To: Kevmo
copying over my reply to your "Benelli vs Mossberg" question on the other thread:

Both Mossberg and Bennelli have excellent reputations. If price is an issue for you, you are better off getting the Mossberg and using the money you save to get lots of practice ammo and spend a weekend at a range getting comfortable with it.

By "getting comfortable" I mean putting a couple of hundred rounds through it under the supervision of somebody competent, over a period of a couple of days, and becoming confident that you can handle the recoil, that the gun cycles reliably, and that you can hit the target reliably with it.

If you have a wife/girlfriend, before buying you might take a look at getting a 20-gauge, which has much less recoil, unless she's a big girl who can become comfortable with a 12-gauge.

I would also recommend getting a copy of Massad Ayoob's Advanced Combat Shotgun

48 posted on 09/15/2008 11:30:14 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell)
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To: BubbaBasher
I would rather have a .22LR than having to use my fist.

I have seen LOTS of dead gang bangers in Little Rock with no visible wounds, later found to be shot with .22.

You are right though, limited stop potential UNLESS YOU CAN score with a head shot.

49 posted on 09/15/2008 11:30:25 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: Kevmo
You'r best bet for the money is a 12 gauge pum (Mossberg makes a good inexpensive line). If you're a smaller person, try buying a .20 gauge pump. Load the shotgun with 1&3 or 2&4 duplex shot ... deadly at short range like inside a dwelling, but dissipates quickly so you won't kill neighbors accidentally.

If you can handle a pistol, Rossi makes a very good mid-range priced .357 six shot revolver. Load this weapon with .38 Special jacketed hollowpoiont +P rounds for best knockdown at minimal recoil ... to keep the weapon under control following initial round fired. The Rossi pistol has rubber grip so it is comfortable for practicing as often as possible.

If you live in a semi-rural setting, you might want to consider purchasing a .357 revolver and a lever action rifle in the same caliber (.357) with a 16 to 18 inch barrel so it is manageable inside a dwelling. And practice as often as possible. You can purchase beaucoups of .38 Special and .357 ammo and will have a pistol and rifle chambering the same ammo. If you can handle a .44 or .45 caliber handgun, you can get the rifles in those calibers as well. But the best homedefense weapon is a medium to short shotgun model in pump action with 1&3 duplex shells.

50 posted on 09/15/2008 11:31:23 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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