Posted on 09/17/2008 11:45:01 AM PDT by libh8er
Canon engineers are being held back from developing new sensor technology by marketing departments in a "race for megapixels", claims an employee of the Japanese photography company. (Advertisement)
The employee told Tech Digest that Canon have the technology to "blow the competition away" in terms of image sensors, but are instead being asked to focus on headline figures like the number of megapixels a camera has. When asked for his opinion on the Canon EOS 5D Mark II, which we covered this morning, the employee said:
"I am hugely disappointed because once again Canon engineers are dictated by their marketing department and had to keep up with the megapixel race. They have the technology to blow the competition away by adapting the new 50D sensor tech in a full frame format and just easing off a little on the megapixels. Although no formal testing has been done on the new model yet, judging by the spec and technology used, it just seems to be as good or as bad as the competition - not beating them by a mile (which we used to)."
The employee was keen to point out though that he wasn't wholly disappointed by the new model though:
"The image quality on the 5d1 was so good that it's still as good as the new NikonD700 even though the Nikon is 3 years younger. I was hoping (...) for two new cameras. One would be a 'reheated' 5D1 with a same megapixel count but a slight redesign in sensor combined with new processor and all the gadgets like micro autofocus adjustments, vignetting control, dust reduction, better weather seals and an upgrade to the autofocus."
"The other one would be a 'revolution' 5d, with a completely new sensor design (so it can actually take a lot more megapixels)
(Excerpt) Read more at uk.news.yahoo.com ...
I think a lot of engineers would put aside their grievances if some of the hot marketing chicks would go out with them, but that never seems to happen.
The marketing department wants consumers to be stupid.
Random musings from the empty corner of my head:
1. Marketing usually always wins... especially over Engineering
2. If they improved the image sensors, perhaps they wouldn’t sell as many cameras to “repeat” buyers (kinda goes along with my conspiracy theory that they could make a tire that lasts for at least 100,000 miles)
3. Maybe Marketing has determined through their research that most consumers of these devices only look skin deep when wondering what camera to buy and pixel count seems to be what everyone else is focused on (get it? focused? sorry).
There has been many better products that never made it because of poor marketing.
Both of those are great!
“Marketing usually always wins... especially over Engineering”
Given that the goal of the company is to make money, this makes sense.
I say that as an engineer — who has had to sell things.
Yes, product and quality are important.
So is getting drunk and going to a titty bar with the guy who buys your stuff.
The problem is, the more megapixels you cram into a sensor of the size required by standard lenses, the smaller the pixels have to be, and the less voltage you can accumulate in each pixel. That means that we’re approaching a point where we’ll lose dynamic range but have a really sharp picture.
When hi-tech solutions become brute force, it’s time to step back and let some new technology come in.
Lol. Talk about fraud !
I hope to upgrade to maybe a 40D next year. Money is just too tight right now.
The Japanese got into a "transistor count" marketing race. Then folks discovered that a "nine Transistor" Japanese radio only had a couple of functional transistors -- and the rest were merely empty "cans" to up the count...
I have a 20D too.. it rocks(!) except for the loud shutter. But if you are going to upgrade, I suggest you skip the 40d and go straight to the 50d. Price will substantially come down next year.
“anonymous engineer” source - what BS. This is marketing generated. Guaranteed.
Actually the Foveon sensor (Fuji) is better than anything Canon or Nikon has on a pixel per pixel basis, but is hampered by other things.
This is a cheap marketing trick to trash Nikon. Shame is, both Nikon & Canon make good cameras. This sort of crap is no better than election mudslinging.
So I don't get that option.
Anyways...
You've all heard how necessity is the mother of invention?
What they don't tell you is that she was knocked up by a salesman.
How I know. I worked for Sharp for 25 years.
I remember Japan telling me (Sharp USA), your getting 25,000 of these this year, like it or not.
Good analysis. I think they are clearly reaching the point of diminishing returns on the pixel-count numbers.
Better to be thinking about signal to noise ratios and dynamic range, as you stated. That’s where the real technical improvements will be.
The article is correct, nevertheless, that dynamic range is going to become more important than pixel count as soon as someone has the guts to push it.
Of course that requires a raw image editor or a much smarter in camera processor to get the benefit.
The company's marketing VP wouldn't let him near trade shows, conferences, or potential customers of any sort. In the VP's words, the engineering lead was "too honest".
That's one bulky zoom ! With today's sensors and their clean high ISO images, you can easily get by with much slower lenses. BTW canon just released an 18-200 IS (finally!), the perfect 'vacation zoom'.
Depends on the company. I’ve been with one, and know of another very well, where engineering always won. In the other, the engineering VP bragged about getting a Sales VP fired every two years.
Neither company exists now. When the tekkies (and I was once one) run the sales force out of the sales booth at a major show saying “We don’t need you, the speed sells itself”, you know the company is near dying.
Happens all the time with cameras. The Nikon D40, D40X and D60 all use the same sensor. The cheaper, less frills D40 is the better camera. Why? Because all that sensor is only used for 6Mp while the 40X and 60 ramp it up to 10mp. More pixels in the same amount of space means more voltage means more noise. That’s the the D40X and the D60 both have nominal ISO’s of 50 while the D40 has a nominal ISO of 100. It simply doesn’t need to slow down as much to reduce noise.
Never let your engineers talk to customers..............or you won’t have either......
I have leaned over the years that marketing considers engineering to be a necessary evil. They'd really rather not have to deal with us at all, but they just can't quite figure out how to get rid of us. From their perspective, engineering is a wrench in the gears of a finely oiled machine. I would advise any young, engineering graduate to always keep this in mind when he or she goes to work for a company. It will help them to understand many things that will happen to them, which are otherwise inexplicable!
It is on the heavy side but I don’t like slow lenses. The 2.8 is bright enough to cover twilight and overcast days. The camera and lens are a chunk to walk around with. I think the next lens will be a bigger zoom to reach out. the advantage of the 17-55 is the ability to get groups or crowd shots.
Since I am married to the glass and always liked Canon, I guess I will stick with it. A high end wedding photographer I know is hardcore Canon and his work is amazing. He is also a very good guy who given very helpful techincal advice.
Some of what I have done with my 20D if anyone is that bored can be found below. I am going to revamp all of it anyway in the coming months.
Here's 35mm Kodachrome 25 from 1982:
I have a 100 megapixel capture system. It is a 6X9 Agfa Billy Record II from 1952. More information on that negative than Canon could dream about. Cost me $200.00.
I’m thinking of upgrading to the 50D and have someone waiting for my 20D which is in perfect shape. I buy most of my stuff through B & H. Any idea where the 50 will be by next year ?
Its the pocket protector that gets in the way of things...
Not quite. The marketing department KNOWS that a large percentage of consumers are stupid, and also knows the dumb ones are the easiest ones to sell to.
A significant portion of the consumer camera market is ruled by megapixels right now. I’ve seen it even with people who should no better (technically knowledgeable people), when two people have bought cameras recently the first thing they mention is the megapixels. That’s the meat people put on the table. Might annoy the engineers trying to get more out of each pixel, but reality is megapixels move the products that pay their salaries.
Believe me, its only for the dedicated.
It’s a p***ing contest that means nothing. “I’ve got THIS many...”
Marketing is exploiting the ignorance and misunderstandings of the consumer.
I’ll bet that marketing would sell an inferior camera for more money and with more push if they could brag that it has more megapixels than another model being developed by the same company.
The NIKON D3 changed professional photography on its ear. The quality of the sensor, full framed and with useable photos from very high ISOs has made our lives dramatically easier. Since I bought it last December my ability to deliver photos in high action, low light has improved substantially. Nikon is in the game in a big way.
“Gahhh. I used to be in outside sales for a few years - I hated it. Too phony baloney for me. I just didn’t care for performing like a trained circus monkey to gain the favor of some spoiled, overly pampered little twit in purchasing.”
Try owning a drilling company and sell to major oil operators. The mid-level engineers can’t take gifts, but they sure can go to Rick’s and get serviced.
Or going to China and showing them how wonderful down-hole pumps are made. I think a few made it to the factory — most ended up being loved a long time.
That said, I liked going to tittie bars better than having to fill out forms on what-minorities-owned what on my company. I finally put it in trust for my daughters and wife and and said it was 100% female owned. Got to raise my footage rate.
Since sold, primarily in operations now -— of course, the worm has turned now, and I can’t find rigs to save my life.
No that contest means something. It means both those cameras were sold because of megapixels, exactly what marketing said.
Marketing is just selling the product. It’s not their fault that 90% of the customers don’t actually understand what they’re buying.
Marketing’s job is to understand the customer. If the data says bumping the megapixels will result in twice as many sales as some other equally expensive to produce feature then their job is to push for bumping the megapixels. Companies exist to make money, period. You make money by giving the customers what they want. Nobody has the job of making the customers want this other feature because that makes a better camera, the job is to make the product the customer wants.
I’ve worked on many products that had brilliant and amazing features that never helped sell the product because the customers didn’t understand that feature was amazing. And I’ve worked on many products that were repleat with idiotic features that were all put in because some big money customer asked for it.
Ditto that. Nothing sells itself.
I worked for an engineering run company that ran its own market share into the ditch by insisting on always providing the absolute best technology the engineers could deliver. It was great stuff but unfortunately, the vast majority of the market didn't want to pay what it cost to make the absolute best.
BTW, marketing is not sales. The old acronym for classic marketing is PPPD -- Product (what product does the market want), Price (what is the market willing to pay for that product), Promotion (how best to make the market aware of that product), and Distribution (how best to take that product to the market).
Sales and marketing may or may not be a part of the same internal organization, but marketing and sales are two distinctly different disciplines.
I think by Christmas the 50d will be down to 1100 or less with Canon and/or B&H rebates. By early spring (around PMA when they announce the the 60d :), I’d say in the 900’s.
That’s from an article published in the 60s by Popular Electronics. Some were also used as diodes.
You can build a decent radio with 6 XSTRs.
UV Filters at 15,000 feet didn’t work so well in 1982! Thanks!
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