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Posted on 10/05/2008 8:47:40 AM PDT by Mercia
Britain's most senior military commander in Afghanistan has warned that the war against the Taliban cannot be won. Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith said the British public should not expect a “decisive military victory” but should be prepared for a possible deal with the Taliban.
His assessment followed the leaking of a memo from a French diplomat who claimed that Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, the British ambassador in Kabul, had told him the current strategy was “doomed to fail”.
Carleton-Smith, commander of 16 Air Assault Brigade, which has just completed its second tour of Afghanistan, said it was necessary to “lower our expectations”. He said: “We’re not going to win this war. It’s about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that’s not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghan army.”
The brigadier added: “We may well leave with there still being a low but steady ebb of rural insurgency . . . I don’t think we should expect that when we go there won’t be roaming bands of armed men in this part of the world. That would be unrealistic and probably incredible.”
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
Basra revisited.
Sounds like Afganistan would be a good place to invest some money. Corporate farms are swallowing our family farms whole. Why not do it there and hire the help from Mexico? The aliens could be legalized and the landscape not unfamiliar.
Where do they get these defeatists?
Stand aside and watch it be won then, because that is exactly what the US is going to do with the help of the people who have actually been liberated.
With guys like this, and Obama in place on both sides of the pond, such views will become self fulfilling and then we will have to deal with the Jihadists here.
it certainly needs some well spent pounds and dollars.
Yup. I’m also fairly sure these comments were exactly what we were hearing out of Iraq. Then the surge happened.
Yeah...they said the same thing about Basra when they tucked tail and ran...
http://sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=15&entry_id=19950
I wrote the brits off when they stood in line to turn in their guns...hell the Iraqis have more liberty than the british these days...
Shame what has happened to the British. Look carefully, we are headed there.
Didn't a Marine Corp General say about a year ago that al Anbar province was lost? Didn't the Brits quit Basrah too because it couldn't be taken?
I’m not sure I really understand why we are in a-stan. Let the taliban have that hell hole. Let the Muslims have the place. Then isolate them. Close our borders to all immigration for 5 years and demand all immigrants learn English and assimilate.
The war can’t be won without preventing the Taliban from using the sanctuaries in Pakistan.
It’s ludicrous that one side can cross the border and attack with impunity, but it’s a ‘provocation’ if the other side does the same thing.
ignoring the headine, the rest of the article has some very good points to make. It can’t be ‘won’ in that there is not going to be a final battle where our forces meet and defeat the enemy.
As with insurgencies it takes lots of time, political will and the military power to enforce it. So in that respect, I agree with what the Brigadier said.
Honestly, read the rest of the article.
Living as I do in the very heart of Britain I have to disagree with you.
Im trying to get some people to read the whole article really, it didn’t come out well with just the headline and the first couple of paras to read. Much of what the Brigadier is saying is correct, in that there wont be a decisive military victory against the enemy.
Respect is due to 16 Air Assault, 32 killed and 170 wounded. They fought hard.
http://www.examiner.com/x-701-National-Defense-Examiner~y2008m10d4-Was-Obama-telling-the-truth-about-al-Qaeda
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5isdjSJsddXZzAx1MozrMaEl4vvNw
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432866,00.html
Of course it can be won, but only if the political correctness is eliminated.
1) Kill the Taliban
2) Pay informers well and with anonimity
3) Kill more Taliban
4) Put a bounty on all Taliban
5) Punish or kill anyone who gives aid or support to the Taliban
6) Make it known that if you are a Taliban or a friend to the Taliban then you could die.
7) It will take 50 to 75 years, but it can be accomplished. It took the Brits 50 to 75 years to wipe of the Thugee of India, the Taliban are no different.
These Brits’ll be lucky their country’s not islamist already once they get back “home”.
Didn’t they tell Mahsood he had no chance against the Sovs? The key to victory generally involves ignoring nay-saying idiots.
Well, except for the streets which are crowded and the markets which are bustling and the tea houses, restaurants parks which are hives of happy activity.
Not hearing those other loud, ugly concussive sounds so much these days.
By definition, "Politically Correct" wars cannot be won.
First major conflict in history where the "win" option is off the table.
This should be interesting, because beyond this point are only two options:
Surrender of the West.
Or
Quick, massive, decisive, no-holds-barred annihilation of the enemy, down to the roots.
There is a third alternative, but very unlikely.
City by city conflict in which the populace, at least in the US, deals with the problem itself with a conflicted national army as spectators.
The Taliban, Al Quida, and radcical Islam must be treated just like we did the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese.
They and those who support them must be prosecuted with extreme prejudice until they want no more of it and begin themselves to execute and hunt down those who hold these Jihadist views.
We can do that...and should do that.
I know full well that the victory will be costly and long...but it must be a real victory and we can bring that about if we have the will. Therein lies the problem.
The young men and women volunteering for this fight in this country understand the gravity, longevity, and importance of this fight and they, after seeing the enemy up close and personal, are re-upping over, and over again to take this fight forward.
Would to God that We the people and our political leaders understood it as well and then prosecuted it accordingly. Therein lies the secret to victory. I would no more compromiuse with, make a deal with, or lessen up the boot on the throat of the Taliban or Al Quida than I would expect my parents would have with the Nazis.
That's the midnset, IMHO, we'de best get to and then keep until the likes of the Taliban, Al Quida, and any other radical Islamaic Jiahdists are driven completely from the public eye all over the world as the Nazis were.
We wrote off Afghanistan after the Russian left and it became the HQ of Obama.
We need at a minimum to keep them on the run..this war will be a quagmire and will take 10 years or more to solve.
We need to establish a Palin policy...equal rights for women in all countries. That would do more to solve their problems than anything else.
I agree with you.
Relax, everyone. “Merci” has been on here since May 2008...I have questioned her as a distinctly possible “ET” ( “ Election Troll “)...these “ET’s “ have been on the sudden increase especially during debates.
Go back to Paris, “Merci”.
I agree with you on Stan for the most part.....without question it is no where near as strategically important as Iraq....
Pak needs to understand we don't want the heads of Pak-Taliban (unless they give us direct reasons), we want the heads of AQ leadership. The bottom line should be, get them for us, put us on them, or we will come get them....come hell or high water. End of discussion.
A:
+1 !!
i seriously doubt that.
In a nutshell, NATO cannot win this, for the sole reason that the war is not taking place in Afghanistan. What can win this is for the government of Pakistan to achieve full control over their country.
We worked for years with Musharraf to accomplish just this one goal.
The starting situation was that Musharraf led the army, and led just the largest of the small minority parties in Pakistan. The army and the ISI were heavily infiltrated with Islamists, and the parliament was locked in contention with Islamist parties.
So we and he began a two-steps-forward-and-one-step-back program. At first, he purged some of the top Islamist leaders in the military, so we rewarded his military with somewhat better equipment.
Then he purged some of the top Islamist leaders in the ISI, and we became friendlier to them as well.
And several times, Musharraf overextended and got a little burned, so had to back down, and try again in some other direction. And just about *any* direction, he would find enemies.
And he kept getting stronger and stronger, with more and more control over his country, divided as it was into autonomous enclaves run by warlords and fanatics. He had a major political victory, forcing the Islamists in parliament to embrace an onerous and repulsive law, which cost them many seats in an election.
Finally, Musharraf peaked. There was nothing more he could do to unify his country. Instead of leading unification, he had become the biggest obstacle to unification. So in a very patriotic and noble way, he has stepped down, to let others finish the job. As such, he was the greatest of leaders that nation had ever known.
And the process continues. The Pakistani army is sorely oppressing the rottenest of the terrorist enclaves, and has killed some thousand of their fighters, without tremendous loss on their part. Just as importantly, it is driving them out of Pakistan back into Afghanistan, into the waiting arms of NATO.
And *that* is a war NATO can win.
And winter is coming. The al-Qaeda and Taliban may become trapped in the horror that is winter in Afghanistan, where they cannot move or act, but NATO can.
And hopefully, come Spring, there will be a unified Pakistan run by a central government, and there will be no haven left for the villains to hide, regroup, and rearm themselves.
1. Deport all muslim non-citizens immediately.
2. Deport all muslim citizens who reveal themselves as part of the "undercover enemy."
3. Place a permanent ban on entry into the US of ALL muslims from any country in the world.
This would work until muslims take over Europe, Africa and Asia (using their no-bars approach), and they send Russians, Germans, French, Africans and Asians to fight on their behalf.
But then a whole new set of "leaders and Americans" will need to deal with that.
May we point out that if we were to swiftly and decisively remove the oil weapon there would be no Saudi prince royalties to fuel the Madrassas upon which the Taliban is dependent for its raw material.
Once the insurgency is at a level the Afghan army can handle alone, we've won.
Once the Taliban have expelled the arabs and handed over Bin Ladin, we've won.
There will likely always be banditry in this part of the world, that isn't our problem or our interest. What we went in to achieve can be achieved and is being achieved bit by bit.
We didn't necesarily want war with the Talibs, we wanted Bin Ladin. Now that we've expelled the Taliban, however, there is no reason to allow them back into power. They should be hunted and destroyed, and the Pashto convinced that their future is to rejoin Afghan life without the nitwits. Hand over Bin Ladin, hand over One-Eyed Jack, stop killing construction workers, and all is forgiven.
Til then, you can sit up nights worrying when we're going to crash your next party.
Thats as coherant an argument on this thread, thanks for the thoughts. I agree with you entirely. Lets hope some more guys take notice of what you wrote.
cheerio old chap, we might have to stop playing polo long enough to get or hands dirty on this one
My Dad fought the Imperial Japanese in the Pacific. They beheaded people, ran airplanes into ships and buildings.
My Uncle died over Europe in a B-17.
My daughter and son-in-law are involved in this fight.
The foes we fought in WWII were every bit as radical and fanatical as these Jihadists. They had the fanatical and adoring support of their populations. Yet we abjectly defeated them and drove those ideologies to scorn, ridicule, and the verge of extinction, where the people who had supported them hunted them down for us to avoid our further retribution.
The same thing must happen here if we are to defeat this scourge.
...and we will never do it with leaders the likes of a Barack Hussein Obama.
But we will with McCain-Palin.
Thanks for the post. You’re right, and we all know that this is going to take another decade at least. As you said, bit by bit.
go back to your hole troll join date 5/08
And here I thought all of the defeatists were hanging around on the "McCain is Toast, Our Country is Doomed, We're All Gonna Die" threads these days.
I guess a few of them wanted a little variety.
No I have been a member for years since before the Jon Carry election watch who you call a troll I was making fun of the lightweight Brit general don’t you have a sense of humor genius
Keep Iran "surrounded"
Go after elimination of Opium Poppies (not happening just like the US Southern Border being open to drugs)
Make Pakistan either exert sovereignty over the "tribal" areas or clean them out for a while.
Keep the Russians out.
Keep China out.
For me, the fact that this war is being fought at the edges of Afghanstan, and now moving into Pakistani territory, tells us which direction the war is headed. The fight is not in downtown Kabul or Kandahar, its in the border regions and on the Pakistani side of the border.
That sounds like victory. There won’t be any victory parades, the commander is right. Its an incremental victory. But this is a level of operations we could sustain forever if we needed to. But we won’t need to. At a certain tipping point, the tribes become amenable to being bought off. You hire the tribes to go after the Taliban, the arabs, the chechens and so forth. Someone takes the 25 million for Bin Ladin, and then the dam breaks. This is the model that worked in Iraq, in Anbar, and this with some modifications is what will happen in northwestern Pakistan.
Not defeatist either. This thread isn’t about me, its about Afghanistan.
Talk about missing the point.
Oh, a French diplomat thought it would fail. Well then, that settles it.
I put such great stock in the military wisdom of French diplomats.
They have been right so often before.
What does that wisdom boil down to? I seem to remember it having to do with whatever the situation, surrender first.
What’s a Jon Carry?
Its funny. If you read the whole article, the commander is simply speaking truth.
Its the news-writer who turned his remarks into defeatism. The commander has a very practical understanding of what victory looks like. The writer turns that on its head to make it sound like its very opposite.
We are used to dissecting press here at FR, but there are always some who don’t get it. The commander isn’t defeatist, the writer is.
Those planes were flown by the Saudis.
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