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Honolulu lawsuit filed to open Obama's secret birth records
ContrarianCommentary.com ^ | October 18, 2008 | Andy Martin

Posted on 10/18/2008 12:37:29 AM PDT by Fred Nerks

FROM FREEPER CHIEF ENGINEER:

I received this E-Mail from Andy Martin earlier this evening. I then requested copies of the lawsuit as he offered. I asked permission to post the lawsuit papers to Free Republic and he granted permission. I have attached those papers to this E-Mail -----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 21:51 To: freeper e-mail address Subject: Honolulu lawsuit filed to open Obama’s secret birth records

Honolulu lawsuit filed to open Obama's secret birth records Obama steadfastly refuses to allow access to official sources Andy Martin in Hawaii takes legal action to seek the truth and ferret out the facts about Barack Obama's family history

ANDY MARTIN Executive Editor ContrarianCommentary.com

"Factually Correct, Not Politically Correct"

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

OBAMA NEMESIS ANDY MARTIN SUES IN HAWAIISTATE COURTS TO OPEN BARACK OBAMA'S SECRET BIRTH RECORDS

"WHY IS BARACK OBAMA OBSTRUCTING ACCESS TO HIS BIRTH RECORDS," ANDY MARTIN ASKS, "ALONG WITH OBSTRUCTING ACCESS TO COLLEGE RECORDS AND OTHER ESSENTIAL INFORMATION ABOUT HIS PAST? IS THIS THE KIND OF PRESIDENT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT? SOMEONE AFRAID TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT HIMSELF? HE'S SCARY."

(HONOLULU, HI)(October 17, 2008) Obama nemesis and author Andy Martin filed suit in the First Circuit Court in Honolulu today seeking a court order to open Barack Obama's secret birth records.

"One of Obama's most controversial and contentious issues that he has allowed to fester for years is the question of his birth certificate," says Martin. "Obama has posted at least two versions, maybe more, of a 'certificate' on the Internet.

"I want to see a certified copy issued by the State of Hawaii, not one issued by the State of Obama. Why Obama won't allow direct access to his birth records is beyond me. But the closer we get to discovering the truth about Obama the more we understand why he is terrified of that truth.

"What is Obama hiding? Frankly, after being in Hawaii and conducting our first round of interviews, we think we have a clearer picture of what Obama is concealing, and why. We have more research and interviews to conduct before we can announce our opinions.

"In the meantime, I filed a lawsuit against the State of Hawaii to require the state to open Obama's birth records. The Governor and Director of the Department of Health are named as defendants.

"The case has been docketed as number 08-1-2147-10 and assigned to Circuit Judge Bert Ayabe.

"We will distribute copies of the lawsuit at a Saturday morning news conference, as well as making them available on a limited basis Friday evening upon written request. We will hold the Saturday morning news conference in front of the courthouse to provide additional information.

"Friday evening I will be available by cell phone from AlaMoanaBeachPark.

"We will issue a news release later Friday with details of Saturday's news conference.

"The basic question remains: why is Obama trying to hide his life from birth to adulthood from the American people? Interestingly, we think we also know now why he has virtually imprisoned his white grandmother and refuses to allow her to appear in public. Who is the man behind Obama's mask? I think my book 'Obama: The Man Behind The Mask' is aptly titled.

"Next week, we believe we will be in a position to remove Obama's mask and confront him with the truth about who he is and what he is.

"One TV news network has already tentatively scheduled a conference in New York on our return."

---------------------------------------------- Readers of Obama: The Man Behind The Mask, say the book is still the only gold standard and practical handbook on Barack Obama's unfitness for the presidency. Buy it. Book orders: http://OrangeStatePress.com. Immediate shipment from Amazon.com or the publisher now available. --------------------------------------------- FULL DISCLOSURE: I recently decided to oppose Barack Obama's election and became Executive Director of The Stop Obama Coalition, http://StopObamaCoalition.com. By default, I became the national leader of the anti-Obama movement. I am not acting as either a Democrat or Republican. I have had no contact whatsoever with the McCain Campaign. I am not a member of any political organization. The views expressed are entirely independent. I am acting as an American citizen who sincerely believes Obama is not the man we need in the Oval Office. We are going to run a very dynamic and aggressive campaign against Obama. I will continue to write my news and opinion columns for ContrarianCommentary.com. /s/ Andy Martin


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; US: Hawaii
KEYWORDS: andymartin; antichrist; bc; berg; birthcertificate; birthcertificategate; certifigate; colb; obama; obamagate; obamatruthfile
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51 posted on 10/18/2008 3:43:28 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Pacothecat

Obama Covers His Tracks
Barack Obama apparently wishes his two autobiographies to be the definitive record of his past. He has blocked efforts by others who wish to independently examine his past.

He won’t allow his transcript from his undergraduate days at Columbia University to be released.
He “lost” his thesis on Soviet nuclear policy (see “Where in the World is Obama’s Missing Thesis“ which might provide insight regarding his seeming lack of knowledge about Soviet policy during the Kennedy years).
He won’t answer questions about his days at Harvard Law School.
He “lost” his Illinois Senate records.
He will only release a simple one-page letter from his doctor on his medical condition.
He won’t release his application to the state bar, which, as National Review’s Jim Geraghty notes raises questions about whether he told the truth about parking tickets and drug use, among other issues.
He won’t disclose list of his clients from his law firm days or the nature of the work he did for them as a lawyer (his clients include the indicted political fixer Tony Rezko).
He walks away from uncomfortable questions about Rezko at a news conference.
His cultists try to shut down inquiry into his stewardship of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge by sliming a journalist investigating his days at the helm of that group, which blew through $100 million dollars with no discernible benefit for the schools and students that it was putatively designed to help (what does the constitutional law lecturer say to the chilling of free speech by his acolytes?).
He tries to muddle his long-standing ties with Pastor Wright by producing a version of his attendance record at Trinity Church that is sharply at variance with previous versions he has given (”Obama Re-invents his Trinity Church History“).
The Wall Street Journal joins the battle over Obama’s past in today’s editorial (”Obama’s Lost Years“):

http://countusout.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/obama-covers-his-tracks/


52 posted on 10/18/2008 3:46:15 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: pepsionice
This is mostly a waste of time. I will say this...the most one will find...is that he was adopted by his Indonesian dad after Mom married him...and got his name changed over to “Barry”. He might have acquired Indonesian citizenship via some contrived method...but he still meets all of the general rules to run for president. Folks might not understand this name change....to “Barry”...but if you were some Indonesian dad...the last thing you’d want is some kid of yours named for some Arab.

Which is all fine and forgivable.

However if we all get to know what brand and color underwear "Joe the Plumber" is going to wear the first Monday in November due to media scrutiny, I know think it's too far a stretch to demand to know the truth about a potential US President.

In fact, I don't believe he should be permitted to run at all without making such basics known, however embarrassing prior to the election.

All this is about is simply truth and the ability to tell it.

Hussein has failed this simple test on all accounts.

His dismissive attitude towards "typical Americans is maddening.

53 posted on 10/18/2008 3:50:19 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Evil Slayer

Don’t you remember all the jokes from Obama about Cheney being the black sheep of the family when this was discovered like last year I think?


54 posted on 10/18/2008 3:52:53 AM PDT by RatsDawg (I love Palin :))
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To: Caipirabob

Joe-the-Plumber Vetted More Than Obama-the-Presidential-Candidate [UPDATE]
October 17, 2008 by texasdarlin

Let’s see….
A Guy named Joe, who happens to be a plumber with ambitions for a bigger business, questioned and challenged a Guy named Barack, who happens to be running for President of the US/Leader of the Free World…

And within 24 hours The Media has given us more information about Joe’s life than they’ve given us about Barack’s life in the past 18 months!

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/


55 posted on 10/18/2008 3:54:17 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Fred Nerks

It’s insane, but also scary beyond belief. This is the rise of the “Fourth Reich” we’re witnessing, and I’m not exaggerating with the Nazi comparisons this time.


56 posted on 10/18/2008 4:00:32 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Ann Archy

texasdarlin is all over it...

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/okay-so-you-tell-me-where-he-was-born/

“...YOU TELL ME where Obama was born. Give me the name of the hospital, and tell me who was present. What witnesses signed his original Birth Certificate. What was the name of the doctor who delivered him? All of this should be visible on the the vaulted long-version of his Birth Certificate — one of the basic documents requested by Berg.

I am ready to stop digging, stop theorizing, and stop hoping that Obama will tell the truth. JUST ASK HIM. Let’s shift the burden back where it belongs: To Obama. When John McCain was questioned about his birth, he produced a long-version birth certificate that named the hospital. Why, YOU TELL ME WHY, Obama is waging an expensive legal defense in response to this fundamental question about his eligibility. WHY?

When Obama answers, when all you angry Obama followers finish YOUR investigations and fact-finding missions, please report back. WE ARE WAITING. It’s so easy for you to noisily buzz around my blog, I know, but GO ASK YOUR CANDIDATE THESE QUESTIONS, and promptly let us know what he says. I promise to give you the space to publish your findings…


57 posted on 10/18/2008 4:05:15 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Fred Nerks

Just tell me what he WEIGHED...how LONG he was....THAT info is ALWAYS on B.C.’s!!


58 posted on 10/18/2008 4:11:21 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Caipirabob

P.U.M.A.!

The Secret Scrapbook of Barry Soetoro AKA Barack Obama…
October 15, 2008 by PUMA Pundit

http://www.puma08.com/2008/10/15/the-secret-scrapbook-of-barry-soetoro-aka-barack-obama/


59 posted on 10/18/2008 4:12:57 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Gondring

Depends on the state, possibly even the county.

NYS has a copy of my “long form” (actual certificate of live birth) with the doctors signature, my little footprint, etc on file on microfiche.

But I got here like before dirt was invented so it may have changed by now.


60 posted on 10/18/2008 4:13:34 AM PDT by djf (No milk on the shelves = blood in the streets. So what do we do? Send more money to the bankers!)
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To: leadhead

I bet a turkey baster was used to impregnate his witch of a wife.

Every time I see a photo or video of Obama (and I try not to cause I can’t stand to look at him) my gaydar goes off at full alarm volume.


61 posted on 10/18/2008 4:22:38 AM PDT by proudofthesouth (Homosexuality IS a choice! There isn't any biological reason for it. They CHOOSE to be that way!)
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To: Ann Archy

A Birth Certificate is NOT the same as a Certificate of Live Birth.

The information below was also posted on FR, but I am providing this link because the format is easier to follow IMO.

http://www.obamacrimes.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-main/17-certificate-of-live-birth-analysis-part-one


62 posted on 10/18/2008 4:25:10 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Fred Nerks

I KNOW it’s different....that’s why I want to see the BIRTH CERTIFICATE that has his LENGHTH, WEIGHT, DOCTOR”S NAME...ETC.


63 posted on 10/18/2008 4:29:33 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Lesforlife; Fred Nerks; preacher; Ainast; Evil Slayer; Gondring; Pacothecat; ...

“Just curious about whether or why there would be records
in Hawaii”

Phil Berg’s law suit contends he was probably born in Kenya, his mother was prevented from leaving due to late stage pregnancy and the airlines wouldn’t let her on the plane. After birth in Kenya, Mother Obama returns to Hawaii and registers the birth, hence NO records in any hospital of an Obama birth.

This is apparently consistent with Kenya family saying Obama was born in Kenya as you said.

All confusing, but now it seems there’s a reason to this madness!

1. Conduct the election with the birth certificate question not resolved in court.

2. Assuming Obama is elected, the question then goes to the 20TH Amendment of the Constitution which allows Congress to determine the President’s qualifications.

3. With a Democrat Congress, Laws? Constitution? WHO CARES, OBAMA is the ONE, chosen by the PEOPLE! They will gloss over the fact that the American people did NOT know that Obama was NOT eligible per the Constitution to be President.

4. The Supreme Court will probably rule he in NOT eligible, Biden named as President (Per the 20th Amendment) and Obama is chosen as a CLOSE ADVISOR.

5. The RATS think they can get away with it, so far they have.

October surprise? This is the ultimate one, the Democrat nominee is NOT eligible. WHEN the courts rule on a law suit and show that the whole Obama mania play was staged from the beginning, the riots that follow will make the 60’s look like child’s play.

QUESTIONS? You racist you, you just want to fight this because he’s BLACK.....

http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/recordings-and-information-leading-to-recent-api-story-on-michelle-obamas-telephone-call-is-now-being-cleared-for-release/

http://www.obamacrimes.com/


64 posted on 10/18/2008 4:39:23 AM PDT by BILL_C (Those who don't understand the lessons of history are bound to repeat them!)
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To: Ann Archy; Calpernia; Chief Engineer
LOL! I know what you mean...but I've been thinking, it's going to be very difficult for Berg or Martin to get anywhere...no one knows what his name is.

I'm trying to put myself into Martin's shoes. All he has to go on really is the certificate number. The first numbers relate to the county, the second to the year, the third set must/may be sequential.

FACTCHECK.MIRACLE.NUMBER.APPEARS.AFTER.THE TRIP TO HAWAII

So, what Martin needs to see is the name that corresponds with that entry for 010641. Who was the ten thousandth, six hundred and forty-first child born in 1961?

65 posted on 10/18/2008 4:43:56 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: Caipirabob

“...In fact, I don’t believe he should be permitted to run at all without making such basics known, however embarrassing prior to the election...”

blank form:

S T A T E M E N T OF C A N D I D A C Y

http://www.elections.il.gov/Downloads/ElectionInformation/pdf/P-1.pdf


66 posted on 10/18/2008 5:06:53 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: Gondring
Actually, IIRC, VP Cheney could legally request those records, if reports are correct that he and Barack Obama share a common ancestor.

I have tried to request birth certificates of people that share a common ancestor with me and have been told that I could not have them. I was told that I could only request birth certificates of direct ancestors. I have run into this in two different states. Does the office of VP afford different rules? Or might the rules differ by state?

67 posted on 10/18/2008 5:12:31 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Fred Nerks

WOW!! The Certificate Number USED to be BLACKED OUT!!!


68 posted on 10/18/2008 5:18:05 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Republic
For all we know, he may be a sort of fabrication

Good point. It does seem like he came out of nowhere doesn't it?

69 posted on 10/18/2008 5:20:35 AM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Fred Nerks

If only Barack’s name were Joe the Plumber maybe the media would investigate it.


70 posted on 10/18/2008 5:22:08 AM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Reaganwuzthebest

What if he was Stanley Toot?


71 posted on 10/18/2008 5:22:52 AM PDT by usmcobra (There are 455,000,000 reasons why Obama should show his eligibility to be president!)
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To: pepsionice
“Barry”...but if you were some Indonesian dad...the last thing you’d want is some kid of yours named for some Arab. ,

Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation in the world. I lived there two years. There are plenty of Indonesians with "Arab" names. The Muslim inflluence in Indonesia began in the late 13th century with Arab traders.

72 posted on 10/18/2008 5:22:52 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Ann Archy

the CoLB on fightthesmears IS STILL BLACKED OUT:

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate


73 posted on 10/18/2008 5:25:26 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: usmcobra

Anybody but their Barack.


74 posted on 10/18/2008 5:29:54 AM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Ann Archy

Click the link under the image on #65. After the trip to Hawaii, the number, the seal and signature appear. Only one problem; not in any of the images do all of these items appear together in one picture.

And factcheck has turned out to be just another Ayres/Obama connection.


75 posted on 10/18/2008 5:31:32 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: Fred Nerks

Why would FACTCHECK, an Arm of the ANNENBERG PROJECT, be the one who is showing the BC....instead of the OBAMA CAMPAIGN??? I think I answered my own question.


76 posted on 10/18/2008 5:35:21 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: BILL_C

If Biden is named as president you can be certain he will stop taking Obama’s calls.....


77 posted on 10/18/2008 5:35:48 AM PDT by Lovebloggers (uate)
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To: Fred Nerks

the number, seal and signture are not in ONE picture of the CERTIFICATE??? PLEASE NOTIFY ALL WHO ARE LOOKING INTO THIS.


78 posted on 10/18/2008 5:36:34 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Fred Nerks

I want to see a certified copy issued by the State of Hawaii, not one issued by the Dan Rather and CBS.


79 posted on 10/18/2008 5:36:43 AM PDT by BuffaloJack
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To: Fred Nerks

Where the hell is Jack Bauer when you need him.


80 posted on 10/18/2008 5:36:58 AM PDT by Lovebloggers (uate)
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To: Ann Archy

“Well......where’s the copy of the VAULT FORM??”

Probably in Kenya.


81 posted on 10/18/2008 5:41:23 AM PDT by depenzz (Get the most out of life, its not a dress rehearsal)
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To: Fred Nerks

Good luck, I have seen the Hawaii legal system in action, and for corruptness, it beats Chicago.


82 posted on 10/18/2008 5:53:55 AM PDT by DaiHuy (')
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To: Ann Archy

That’s the first thing that struck me. The image of the ColB being held, shows nothing but a smudge where a number might be, it’s been deliberately obscured. No image that I can see shows the seal and signature together on the rear of the Colb. It’s all shown in bits and pieces.

There have been numerous threads on FR on this subject - we are up to almost 6,000 on this one...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040486/posts

(I’ll say goodnight now, it’s almost midnight in Australia.)


83 posted on 10/18/2008 5:54:38 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: preacher

Press Release link:

http://www.pr-inside.com/honolulu-lawsuit-filed-to-open-obama-s-r868066.htm

Contrarian link:

http://contrariancommentary.wordpress.com/2008/10/18/honolulu-lawsuit-filed-to-open-obama%E2%80%99s-secret-birth-records/


84 posted on 10/18/2008 6:06:37 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Caipirabob

>>>This is the rise of the “Fourth Reich” we’re witnessing, and I’m not exaggerating with the Nazi comparisons this time.

Hitler wasn’t a German citizen either. He was Austrian. Maybe if they demanded to see his papers before he rose to power, all those lives wouldn’t have been lost.

Nice if we learned from the past,huh?


85 posted on 10/18/2008 6:14:56 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: BILL_C

Andy Martin is one of the cited sources in Phil Berg’s suit. This may be why Andy Martin is in Hawaii.


86 posted on 10/18/2008 6:18:25 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: BILL_C

>>>4. The Supreme Court will probably rule he in NOT eligible, Biden named as President (Per the 20th Amendment) and Obama is chosen as a CLOSE ADVISOR.

Wouldn’t Obama be deported? He is an illegal, no?

Arrested as an enemy combatant? He has taken monies from Nadhmi Auchi who put Saddam Hussein in power.

At the least, he can’t hold any office.


87 posted on 10/18/2008 6:23:02 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Fred Nerks

Have faith in Andy Martin. He knows more about Obama than he has published. He has had a microscope on that man since 2004.


88 posted on 10/18/2008 6:24:53 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: usmcobra; Diver Dave; null and void

Boot The Toot!


89 posted on 10/18/2008 6:26:27 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Lovebloggers

>>>If Biden is named as president you can be certain he will stop taking Obama’s calls.....

Tell us about why we can be certain?


90 posted on 10/18/2008 6:28:22 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Fred Nerks
Just in general.

Are ‘Birth Certificates’ a government form, and or record?

So, are there secret government forms, or records?

If it is a public record of a legal act ( I would say the most fundamental of property rights, and civil rights) how come they are secret?

Why is not a record of a new pubic, a new citizen, that has been issued an official declaration of existence, with all rights and privileges, why is this not public?

91 posted on 10/18/2008 6:31:13 AM PDT by Leisler (Each generation, selling the next further into slavery)
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To: Calpernia

Joe “I never met a mirror I didn’t like” Biden gets moved up to the position of president and he is going to take orders from.... ??????????

BAHAHAHAHAHA. Seriously.

There is no way Obama still has access to the White House if this happens.


92 posted on 10/18/2008 6:41:33 AM PDT by Lovebloggers (uate)
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To: Ainast

It will still be hand recorded in one of 2 sets of log books...the hospital’s and the clerk of court/registrar of deeds with a valid certificate number referencing a legitimate document. 2 sets of logs should be archived in a fireproof vault somewhere on the island.


93 posted on 10/18/2008 7:24:08 AM PDT by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: Lovebloggers

Sorry, that just doesn’t ‘do it’ for me.


94 posted on 10/18/2008 7:25:22 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Fred Nerks

Excuse me....computer printer fonts did not exist in 1961. Try again from the ACORN funded website you pulled it from.


95 posted on 10/18/2008 7:34:54 AM PDT by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: Fred Nerks

BTTT


96 posted on 10/18/2008 7:43:04 AM PDT by CodeToad
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To: RSmithOpt

Try what again? Fred is offline now.


97 posted on 10/18/2008 7:47:55 AM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Lesforlife
Just curious about whether or why there would be records in Hawaii if the candidate was born in Kenya, as has been stated by his grandmother.

No, there wouldn't. Hawaii would then respond with a "Certificate of No Record".

Just as an aside, Hawaii will issue an Hawaiian BC to a foreign born child adopted by Hawaiians. Incredible, but true.

98 posted on 10/18/2008 8:08:09 AM PDT by null and void (Socialism doesn't work because of people./People don't work because of socialism...)
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To: Calpernia

I really can’t think of one politician in office who would ever sign on for such nonsense.

The minute they rise to the level of president in this type of situation would prompt a complete overhaul of the game plan. The consequences of Biden brushing Obama and his minions aside would be what exactly?

If you think that Biden is an Obama soldier then there really is nothing I can say to you to change your mind on that.


99 posted on 10/18/2008 8:09:12 AM PDT by Lovebloggers (uate)
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To: pepsionice
the last thing you’d want is some kid of yours named for some Arab.

His Indonesian dad had him registered as a muslim in school, had him taught arabic, and study the qu'ran. What's the big deal with him having an arabic name?

100 posted on 10/18/2008 8:18:47 AM PDT by null and void (Socialism doesn't work because of people./People don't work because of socialism...)
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