Oh no! Not meatpacking plants!
Lamh Foistenach Abu!
Posted on 10/20/2008 12:15:43 PM PDT by engrpat
WASHINGTON— The Supreme Court agreed Monday to decide whether people picked up on immigration violations also can face charges of identity theft if they use Social Security and other identification numbers that belong to others.
Federal appeals courts have split over whether the defendant must know that the phony ID numbers belong to a real person and the court said it will resolve the question.
Federal prosecutors have increasingly been bringing the more serious identity theft charges against undocumented immigrants, including many who were arrested in raids on meatpacking plants.
Defense lawyers have argued that their clients should not be charged with stealing someone else’s identity because the immigrants only were seeking documentation that would allow them to work. They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say.
The Bush administration, however, has said that it doesn’t matter under federal law.
The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in St. Louis, agreed with the administration and upheld the conviction of Ignacio Carlos Flores-Figueroa.
Flores-Figueroa, a Mexican national, worked at a steel plant in East Moline, Ill., since 2000. Originally, he worked there under an assumed name, and false Social Security and alien registration numbers. In 2006, he told his employer he wanted to be known by his real name and submitted new identification documents.
This time, though, the Social Security number belonged to someone else, and his green card number was that of yet another person. Suspicious, the employer contacted immigration authorities, who arrested Flores-Figueroa. The five-count indictment against him included two counts of aggravated identity theft.
Federal appeals courts based in Atlanta and Richmond also have ruled in the government’s favor in similar cases, while the appeals court in Washington, D.C., has sided with defendants.
The case, which will be argued next year, is Flores-Figueroa v. U.S., 08-108.
This question needs a court to decide?? Scary stuff.
I thought this was Scrappleface at first.
How bout we start executing illegal immigrants? Ya think that would stop the problem?
What else would it be?
That social security number of mine is what the government recognizes me as. To them I am xxx.xx.xxxx. How could using that number not be stealing my identity?
I am quickly losing confidence in our justice system. This matter should be cut and dried, settled nearly a hundred years ago, or when the SS numbers first started being issued.
Chaos is what this is, pure and simple.
Ignorance isn’t a viable excuse when actual citizens break the law, so it shouldn’t be an excuse that an invader can use either.
This seems to be an analogue to this:
If agents found that an illegal who was caught in a sweep had murdered someone, they couldn’t try him on murder in addition to the immigration issue?
Why should the Court need to take this case? Of course other crimes can be tried. Americans are tried for other side issues all the time.
Doesn't this seem like a "no-brainer" to the rest of y'all?
I guess if you are an American citizen, it is ID theft. But if you are an illegal alien, no problem. What’s so hard about this decision? The illegals like to claim they have rights in this country yet they squeal like pigs when the law is applied to them equally.
Lamh Foistenach Abu!
Duh, will they also decide whether or not liquid water is wet?
No doubt the ruling will be 5-4 for or against, depending on whether Anthony Kennedy is having a bad hair day.
Ok. An American citizen can get someones SS number and commit fraud in that persons name, and they are almost certain to spend some time in a Federal Pen. But the SC has to determine if an illegal allien’s theft meets the same standard? The Founding Fathers are probably rolling in their grave for the one millionth time with our studpity.
How is it not? What else would it be?
Perhaps he was getting tired of going by Julie Sinclair and didn't realize what he was doing was illegal. /s
To be devil’s advocate...what if I just made up a SS number and put it on an application?? How can I be charged with ID theft without someone proving that I new the person that the number actually belonged if I made it up in my head? Under that scenario, if I filled in some web form and used a fake email address and it turned out to be a real address of someone else, I would be a criminal??? Not quite.
“Defense lawyers have argued that their clients should not be charged with stealing someone else’s identity because the immigrants only were seeking documentation that would allow them to work. They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say.”
Okay, charge them with falsifying official documents, a felony.
Lawyers have done more to harm this country than illegals, liberals, the Japanese and german Military, and the British army combined.
S-o-o-o-o-o.........you thought you heard it all WRT illegals.........
C’mon, they’re just stealing the identities Americans won’t steal. I propose a guest identity thief program.
Fraud is fraud, whether it's just the intended employer or the employer and the person to whom the SSN belongs or will belong.
He’s busy researching international so he can formulate his position.
No one ever heard of “Equal protection under the law”?
Haven’t all the elites already decided that it earns them citizenship?
Federal appeals courts have split over whether the defendant must know that the phony ID numbers belong to a real person and the court said it will resolve the question.
Good Lord...After bringing this country to it's knees, they are now trying to figure out how to kill it.
Why in God’s name is this NOT a crime?
What kind of weasels are spinning this otherwise?
This is why I always get taken in by Scrappleface. It is hard to tell fiction from reality these days.
I geess its obvious I’ve never been to law school but this seems like a no-brainer to me. Just goes to show you most judges are simply educated idiots.
If the SCOTUS rules in the perp’s favor, will it make that much of a difference who gets appointed in the future?
Seems like it would be a lost cause after a decision like that.
They will end up stating that if the illegal states that he did not know that it was fake he is off the hook.
The Supreme court needs to keep the word “knowlingly” out of this.
“If the court rules that ID Fraud by an Illegal Alien is OK, maybe it is time to push the “Reset” button A.K.A 2nd Amendment.”
Some may wish to wait until the Executive Order that deputizes those in the Youth Squad 18 years of age and older, and allows them to carry sidearms “for his or her protection”.
ping
This should be a no brainer. But some of those on the Supreme Court don't seem to have any brains.
Will the court visit the old version "This card is not for identification puposes"?
Just let a CITIZEN steal and use another’s SS# and see if the same court system doesn’t order the offender incarcerated on ID theft.
I’ll tell you, America has bent over backwards and gone that direction just to make US laws accomodate the illegal alien, all to our own detriment.
For identification purposes, the person presenting the card cannot be securely identified with the card alone. That doesn’t negate the truth that the Social Security number represents you to the government. It is your sole number, not assigned to another person on the planet.
If someone uses it, they are in effect saying they are you. They have stolen you identity at that point. They are passing themselves off as you, even if they don’t use your name in the process (IMO). That number stands on it’s own.
for the AFIRE ping list
There is a classic example of the reason why "LAWYERS" and "LIARS" sound so remarkably similar. Illegal aliens and their lawyers knew damned well the numbers didn't belong to THEM. That means they were STOLEN.
I completely agree. It’s just that with the whole logic thing being up side down these days, well, I was just wondering...
So if the Supreme Court rules that he cannot be charged with ID theft, what is to stop the rest of us from just making up any old SS number we want and using it? Or several? If caught, we just say we didn’t know it belonged to someone else. No problema. That this might be a recipe for chaos that undermines the entire Social Security system shouldn’t worry anyone. No sir-ee.
These days, we’re all left wondering. You take care.
I agree, what else could it be? And, more to the point, could I, as an American citizen get away with using one of the Judges’ SS #?
I was thinking that the judges may be more appropriate.
That would certainly seem to be a good question for the proponent of the claim it WAS identity theft. I’m not sure if the court would take a dim view of that argument, but it really brings the point home doesn’t it.
Isn’t this already settled law? This is a no-brainer, but then there are even more no-brainers on the Supreme Court.
Our Justice System faded from view many years ago. Now we have a Legal System. It’s purpose is to fulfill the needs of business and control the people. Guilt or innocence isn’t a subject that actually is of concern to the judges. That’s handled on TV by the womens evening shows.
Yeah. I’m sure the courts can convolute the law to make some judgment that seems to make some sort of sense.
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