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Court to decide if illegal immigrants' use of Social Security numbers is ID theft
Arizona Daily Star ^ | 10-20-08 | Associated Press

Posted on 10/20/2008 12:15:43 PM PDT by engrpat

WASHINGTON— The Supreme Court agreed Monday to decide whether people picked up on immigration violations also can face charges of identity theft if they use Social Security and other identification numbers that belong to others.

Federal appeals courts have split over whether the defendant must know that the phony ID numbers belong to a real person and the court said it will resolve the question.

Federal prosecutors have increasingly been bringing the more serious identity theft charges against undocumented immigrants, including many who were arrested in raids on meatpacking plants.

Defense lawyers have argued that their clients should not be charged with stealing someone else’s identity because the immigrants only were seeking documentation that would allow them to work. They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say.

The Bush administration, however, has said that it doesn’t matter under federal law.

The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in St. Louis, agreed with the administration and upheld the conviction of Ignacio Carlos Flores-Figueroa.

Flores-Figueroa, a Mexican national, worked at a steel plant in East Moline, Ill., since 2000. Originally, he worked there under an assumed name, and false Social Security and alien registration numbers. In 2006, he told his employer he wanted to be known by his real name and submitted new identification documents.

This time, though, the Social Security number belonged to someone else, and his green card number was that of yet another person. Suspicious, the employer contacted immigration authorities, who arrested Flores-Figueroa. The five-count indictment against him included two counts of aggravated identity theft.

Federal appeals courts based in Atlanta and Richmond also have ruled in the government’s favor in similar cases, while the appeals court in Washington, D.C., has sided with defendants.

The case, which will be argued next year, is Flores-Figueroa v. U.S., 08-108.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aliens; courts; illegals; immigrantlist; immigration
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If the court should rule that stealing and using someone else's SSN isn't ID theft then we better come up with something to takes its place real fast.
1 posted on 10/20/2008 12:15:43 PM PDT by engrpat
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To: engrpat

This question needs a court to decide?? Scary stuff.


2 posted on 10/20/2008 12:17:44 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Election '08, the year McCain defined the word "dilemma")
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To: engrpat

I thought this was Scrappleface at first.


3 posted on 10/20/2008 12:18:29 PM PDT by library user
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To: Las Vegas Ron

How bout we start executing illegal immigrants? Ya think that would stop the problem?


4 posted on 10/20/2008 12:19:26 PM PDT by Edizzl79
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To: engrpat

What else would it be?

That social security number of mine is what the government recognizes me as. To them I am xxx.xx.xxxx. How could using that number not be stealing my identity?

I am quickly losing confidence in our justice system. This matter should be cut and dried, settled nearly a hundred years ago, or when the SS numbers first started being issued.

Chaos is what this is, pure and simple.


5 posted on 10/20/2008 12:20:07 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Is Obamanation what our founding fathers, our fallen men in combat, and Ronald Reagan had in mind?)
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To: engrpat

Ignorance isn’t a viable excuse when actual citizens break the law, so it shouldn’t be an excuse that an invader can use either.


6 posted on 10/20/2008 12:20:15 PM PDT by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
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To: engrpat

This seems to be an analogue to this:

If agents found that an illegal who was caught in a sweep had murdered someone, they couldn’t try him on murder in addition to the immigration issue?

Why should the Court need to take this case? Of course other crimes can be tried. Americans are tried for other side issues all the time.


7 posted on 10/20/2008 12:20:19 PM PDT by ConservativeMind (The LA Times, 10/6/08, was told to cut "75 editorial positions." How many are needed for 2 pages?)
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To: engrpat
The Supreme Court agreed Monday to decide whether people picked up on immigration violations also can face charges of identity theft if they use Social Security and other identification numbers that belong to others.

Doesn't this seem like a "no-brainer" to the rest of y'all?

8 posted on 10/20/2008 12:20:19 PM PDT by ninergold3 (By Election Day I'll Be An Anorexic/Alcoholic. . .Stress Sucks!)
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To: engrpat

I guess if you are an American citizen, it is ID theft. But if you are an illegal alien, no problem. What’s so hard about this decision? The illegals like to claim they have rights in this country yet they squeal like pigs when the law is applied to them equally.


9 posted on 10/20/2008 12:21:02 PM PDT by kabar
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To: engrpat
"including many who were arrested in raids on meatpacking plants."

Oh no! Not meatpacking plants!

Lamh Foistenach Abu!

10 posted on 10/20/2008 12:21:14 PM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines, RVN 1969. St. Peregrine, patron saint of cancer patients, pray for us.)
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To: engrpat

Duh, will they also decide whether or not liquid water is wet?


11 posted on 10/20/2008 12:23:01 PM PDT by rfp1234 (Phodopus campbelli: household ruler since July 2007.)
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To: engrpat
If the court should rule that stealing and using someone else's SSN isn't ID theft then we better come up with something to takes its place real fast.

If the court rules that ID Fraud by an Illegal Alien is OK, maybe it is time to push the "Reset" button A.K.A 2nd Amendment.
12 posted on 10/20/2008 12:23:06 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (GOP: If you reward bad behavior all you get is more bad behavior.)
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To: engrpat

No doubt the ruling will be 5-4 for or against, depending on whether Anthony Kennedy is having a bad hair day.


13 posted on 10/20/2008 12:23:15 PM PDT by ScottinVA
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To: engrpat

Ok. An American citizen can get someones SS number and commit fraud in that persons name, and they are almost certain to spend some time in a Federal Pen. But the SC has to determine if an illegal allien’s theft meets the same standard? The Founding Fathers are probably rolling in their grave for the one millionth time with our studpity.


14 posted on 10/20/2008 12:23:42 PM PDT by The South Texan (The Drive By Media is America's worst enemy and American people don't know it.)
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To: engrpat

How is it not? What else would it be?


15 posted on 10/20/2008 12:24:03 PM PDT by mockingbyrd (When I say Obama. You say Ayers.....Obama! Ayers!)
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To: engrpat
Ignacio Carlos Flores-Figueroa, a Mexican national, worked ... under an assumed name, and false Social Security and alien registration numbers.

Perhaps he was getting tired of going by Julie Sinclair and didn't realize what he was doing was illegal. /s

16 posted on 10/20/2008 12:24:09 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: ninergold3

To be devil’s advocate...what if I just made up a SS number and put it on an application?? How can I be charged with ID theft without someone proving that I new the person that the number actually belonged if I made it up in my head? Under that scenario, if I filled in some web form and used a fake email address and it turned out to be a real address of someone else, I would be a criminal??? Not quite.


17 posted on 10/20/2008 12:24:14 PM PDT by LetsRok
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To: engrpat

“Defense lawyers have argued that their clients should not be charged with stealing someone else’s identity because the immigrants only were seeking documentation that would allow them to work. They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say.”

Okay, charge them with falsifying official documents, a felony.


18 posted on 10/20/2008 12:26:07 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat. And so is Obama.)
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To: engrpat
What part of "that belong to others" does someone not ubnderstand?

Lawyers have done more to harm this country than illegals, liberals, the Japanese and german Military, and the British army combined.

19 posted on 10/20/2008 12:26:25 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: Tennessee Nana; AuntB; raybbr; TADSLOS; calcowgirl; 3AngelaD

S-o-o-o-o-o.........you thought you heard it all WRT illegals.........


20 posted on 10/20/2008 12:26:27 PM PDT by Liz (Taxpayer: one who works for the govt but doesn't have to take a civil service test. R. Reagan.)
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To: engrpat

C’mon, they’re just stealing the identities Americans won’t steal. I propose a guest identity thief program.


21 posted on 10/20/2008 12:26:42 PM PDT by According2RecentPollsAirIsGood
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To: engrpat
... because the immigrants only were seeking documentation that would allow them to work. They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say.

Fraud is fraud, whether it's just the intended employer or the employer and the person to whom the SSN belongs or will belong.

22 posted on 10/20/2008 12:27:29 PM PDT by skr (May God confound the enemy)
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To: ScottinVA

He’s busy researching international so he can formulate his position.


23 posted on 10/20/2008 12:27:51 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: engrpat

No one ever heard of “Equal protection under the law”?


24 posted on 10/20/2008 12:29:05 PM PDT by Zathras
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To: engrpat

Haven’t all the elites already decided that it earns them citizenship?


25 posted on 10/20/2008 12:30:53 PM PDT by donna ( I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.” - Barack Hussein Obama)
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To: engrpat
The Supreme Court agreed Monday to decide whether people picked up on immigration violations also can face charges of identity theft if they use Social Security and other identification numbers that belong to others.

Federal appeals courts have split over whether the defendant must know that the phony ID numbers belong to a real person and the court said it will resolve the question.

Good Lord...After bringing this country to it's knees, they are now trying to figure out how to kill it.

26 posted on 10/20/2008 12:30:53 PM PDT by dragnet2 (We witnessed the biggest expansion of government in American history)
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To: engrpat

Why in God’s name is this NOT a crime?

What kind of weasels are spinning this otherwise?


27 posted on 10/20/2008 12:31:03 PM PDT by bestintxas (It's great in Texas)
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To: LetsRok
If you use any ssn other than your own you are breaking the law. Made up or not.
28 posted on 10/20/2008 12:31:58 PM PDT by Dan12180 (Prayers and faith vanquish all)
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To: library user

This is why I always get taken in by Scrappleface. It is hard to tell fiction from reality these days.


29 posted on 10/20/2008 12:34:12 PM PDT by murron (Proud Marine Mom)
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To: engrpat

I geess its obvious I’ve never been to law school but this seems like a no-brainer to me. Just goes to show you most judges are simply educated idiots.


30 posted on 10/20/2008 12:35:30 PM PDT by RedStateGuyTrappedinCT
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To: engrpat

If the SCOTUS rules in the perp’s favor, will it make that much of a difference who gets appointed in the future?

Seems like it would be a lost cause after a decision like that.


31 posted on 10/20/2008 12:47:12 PM PDT by Califreak (As seen on TV: S.A.R.A.H!-Sane Americans Are Against Hussein-Obama!)
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To: RedStateGuyTrappedinCT

They will end up stating that if the illegal states that he did not know that it was fake he is off the hook.

The Supreme court needs to keep the word “knowlingly” out of this.


32 posted on 10/20/2008 12:47:59 PM PDT by acoulterfan
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To: SoConPubbie

“If the court rules that ID Fraud by an Illegal Alien is OK, maybe it is time to push the “Reset” button A.K.A 2nd Amendment.”

Some may wish to wait until the Executive Order that deputizes those in the Youth Squad 18 years of age and older, and allows them to carry sidearms “for his or her protection”.


33 posted on 10/20/2008 12:50:42 PM PDT by frog in a pot (Is there a definition of "domestic enemies" as used in federal oaths, or is that just lip service?)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

ping


34 posted on 10/20/2008 12:53:17 PM PDT by gubamyster
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To: Edizzl79
We'll, they are invading our country :^)
35 posted on 10/20/2008 12:57:42 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Election '08, the year McCain defined the word "dilemma")
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To: engrpat
"The Supreme Court agreed Monday to decide whether people picked up on immigration violations also can face charges of identity theft if they use Social Security and other identification numbers that belong to others.

This should be a no brainer. But some of those on the Supreme Court don't seem to have any brains.

36 posted on 10/20/2008 12:58:20 PM PDT by Spunky ((You are free to make choices, but not free from the consequences))
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To: DoughtyOne
What else would it be?

Will the court visit the old version "This card is not for identification puposes"?

37 posted on 10/20/2008 1:00:22 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Election '08, the year McCain defined the word "dilemma")
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To: engrpat

Just let a CITIZEN steal and use another’s SS# and see if the same court system doesn’t order the offender incarcerated on ID theft.

I’ll tell you, America has bent over backwards and gone that direction just to make US laws accomodate the illegal alien, all to our own detriment.


38 posted on 10/20/2008 1:08:24 PM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

For identification purposes, the person presenting the card cannot be securely identified with the card alone. That doesn’t negate the truth that the Social Security number represents you to the government. It is your sole number, not assigned to another person on the planet.

If someone uses it, they are in effect saying they are you. They have stolen you identity at that point. They are passing themselves off as you, even if they don’t use your name in the process (IMO). That number stands on it’s own.


39 posted on 10/20/2008 1:09:18 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Is Obamanation what our founding fathers, our fallen men in combat, and Ronald Reagan had in mind?)
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To: bcsco

for the AFIRE ping list


40 posted on 10/20/2008 1:09:31 PM PDT by Kevmo (I love that sound and please let that baby keep on crying. ~Sarah Palin)
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To: engrpat
"They didn’t know if the numbers were fictitious or belonged to someone else, their lawyers say."

There is a classic example of the reason why "LAWYERS" and "LIARS" sound so remarkably similar. Illegal aliens and their lawyers knew damned well the numbers didn't belong to THEM. That means they were STOLEN.

41 posted on 10/20/2008 1:13:07 PM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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To: DoughtyOne

I completely agree. It’s just that with the whole logic thing being up side down these days, well, I was just wondering...


42 posted on 10/20/2008 1:15:36 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Election '08, the year McCain defined the word "dilemma")
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To: engrpat

So if the Supreme Court rules that he cannot be charged with ID theft, what is to stop the rest of us from just making up any old SS number we want and using it? Or several? If caught, we just say we didn’t know it belonged to someone else. No problema. That this might be a recipe for chaos that undermines the entire Social Security system shouldn’t worry anyone. No sir-ee.


43 posted on 10/20/2008 1:18:31 PM PDT by 3AngelaD (They screwed up their own countries so bad they had to leave, and now they're here screwing up ours.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

These days, we’re all left wondering. You take care.


44 posted on 10/20/2008 1:19:15 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Is Obamanation what our founding fathers, our fallen men in combat, and Ronald Reagan had in mind?)
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To: DoughtyOne

I agree, what else could it be? And, more to the point, could I, as an American citizen get away with using one of the Judges’ SS #?


45 posted on 10/20/2008 1:33:14 PM PDT by brytlea (Obama--Keep the change!)
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To: Edizzl79

I was thinking that the judges may be more appropriate.


46 posted on 10/20/2008 1:35:22 PM PDT by B4Ranch (I'd rather have a VP that can gut a Moose, than a President that wants to gut our Second Amendment!)
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To: brytlea

That would certainly seem to be a good question for the proponent of the claim it WAS identity theft. I’m not sure if the court would take a dim view of that argument, but it really brings the point home doesn’t it.


47 posted on 10/20/2008 1:35:38 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Is Obamanation what our founding fathers, our fallen men in combat, and Ronald Reagan had in mind?)
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To: engrpat

Isn’t this already settled law? This is a no-brainer, but then there are even more no-brainers on the Supreme Court.


48 posted on 10/20/2008 1:41:40 PM PDT by pray4liberty (The Lord is on the side of the truly righteous. The MSM is not.)
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To: Califreak

Our Justice System faded from view many years ago. Now we have a Legal System. It’s purpose is to fulfill the needs of business and control the people. Guilt or innocence isn’t a subject that actually is of concern to the judges. That’s handled on TV by the womens evening shows.


49 posted on 10/20/2008 1:46:25 PM PDT by B4Ranch (I'd rather have a VP that can gut a Moose, than a President that wants to gut our Second Amendment!)
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To: DoughtyOne

Yeah. I’m sure the courts can convolute the law to make some judgment that seems to make some sort of sense.


50 posted on 10/20/2008 1:48:05 PM PDT by brytlea (Obama--Keep the change!)
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