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If McCain wins, should we all move to Scandinavia? (atheist alert)
Salon ^ | Oct 22, 2008 | Louis Bayard

Posted on 10/22/2008 5:18:01 AM PDT by RDTF

Imagine the unimaginable: Todd Palin picking out curtain patterns for the vice-presidential mansion. In such an eventuality, whither shall we flee?

Four years ago, Democrats made a lot of noise about Canada, but as political statements go, there's not much sting to "I'm so mad at America I'm going to move a few degrees of latitude northward." Tina Fey has suggested we leave Earth altogether, but at the risk of reviving a discredited rubric, I'd like to propose a "third way." Actually, I'll let sociologist Phil Zuckerman propose it. In "Society Without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment," he tells of a magical land where life expectancy is high and infant mortality low, where wealth is spread and genders live in equity, where happy, fish-fed citizens score high in every quality-of-life index: economic competitiveness, healthcare, environmental protection, lack of corruption, educational investment, technological literacy ... well, you get the idea.

To a certain jaded sensibility, what makes Scandinavia particularly magical is what it lacks. "There is no national anti-gay rights movement," writes Zuckerman, "there are no 'Jesus fish' imprinted on advertisements in the yellow pages, there are no school boards or school administrators who publicly doubt the evidence for human evolution ... there are no religiously inspired 'abstinence only' sex education curricula ... there are no parental groups lobbying schools and city councils to remove Harry Potter books from school and public libraries ... there are no restaurants that include Bible verses on their menus and placemats, there are no 'Faith Nights' at national sporting events ..."

Not to put too fine a point on it, there's no God. At least none that would pass muster with evangelical Americans. As few as 24 percent of Danes and as few as 16 percent of Swedes believe in a personal deity. (In America, that figure is close to 90 percent.) In Scandinavia, belief in life after death hovers in the low 30 percent range, as opposed to 81 percent in America. Some 82 percent of Danes and Swedes believe in evolution, while roughly 10 percent believe in hell. Their rate of weekly church attendance is among the lowest on Earth.

"The notion that religious belief is childish, that earnest prayer is something that only children engage in, and that faith in God is just something that one dabbles with in childhood, but eventually grows out of as one becomes a mature adult, would strike most Americans as offensive," writes Zuckerman. "But for millions of Scandinavians, that's just the way it is."

To speak true, Zuckerman's research boils down to 149 formal interviews, conducted entirely in Denmark and Sweden (and mostly in English), and his convenience-sample methodology -- talking "to whomever I could in whatever social situations I found myself" -- greatly limits his ability to extrapolate from his findings. Still, in his own impressionistic fashion, Zuckerman (who has explored the sociology of religion in two previous books) has managed to show what nonbelief looks like when it's "normal, regular, mainstream, common." And he's gone at least partway to proving the central thesis of his book: "Religious faith -- while admittedly widespread -- is not natural or innate to the human condition. Nor is religion a necessary ingredient for a healthy, peaceful, prosperous, and ... deeply good society."

This will come as a surprise to cultural conservatives, who for a long time have pointed baleful fingers at the atheist dictatorships of Albania, North Korea, China and the former Soviet Union. But as Zuckerman argues, there is a significant difference between imposing atheism from above and absorbing it from below. The majority of Scandinavians, he writes, "stopped being religious of their own volition." It may be they never started. Although Christianity was first introduced to Sweden and Denmark in the 800s, it took centuries to become fully entrenched, and given that this process was shaped less by missionary work than by royal fiat, Zuckerman questions whether Danes and Swedes were ever truly as devout as some of their European brethren.

As for faith being the cornerstone of personal morality, Zuckerman would remind us that Scandinavians rank near the top in charitable giving to poor nations, that their murder rate is among the lowest in the world and that the safety net they've created for their poorest citizens puts the U.S. welfare state to shame. And all this has been accomplished without God breathing down anyone's neck.

Indeed, the baldly secular outlook Scandinavians take toward their own deaths rivals Zeno for stoicism. "I think we will be earth, you know," a Danish woman tells Zuckerman. "I don't think anything will happen." "It is as it is," says a 75-year-old Stockholm publisher. "You just have to live every day," says a 43-year-old father of two, "and make nice days."

And to judge from Zuckerman's reportage, there's nothing but nice days in Scandinavia. A simple walk through a Danish town becomes a romp through Arcadia: "I saw beautiful women and handsome men walking about. I saw children holding hands and chatting with one another ... I noticed a few seagulls fluttering above an expressive mural of a colorful mermaid painted on the side of an old building ... The water was calm, moving steadily out to the nearby harbor and then on into the sea."

Even the water, apparently, is calmer. Zuckerman isn't quite so eager to bring up the dark undercurrents of Scandinavian life: dismal weather, a heavy tax burden, low fertility, high alcoholism, a suicide rate twice that of America. (Maybe godlessness has its downsides?) Nor does he spend a lot of time wondering how the placidity of Scandinavia's insular and homogenous societies will bear up under the influx of highly religious non-Western immigrants.

As for the Nordic worldview that Zuckerman describes variously as "gentle agnosticism" ("No, I don't believe in God ... but I do believe in something"), "benign indifference" and "comfortable blankness," I see a rather profound incuriosity. To judge from Zuckerman's dispatches, Scandinavians are not so much agnostic or atheistic as congenitally skittish around the topic of religion. "You can do whatever you want," says one Danish man, "just you keep it to yourself." "In Denmark," a pastor remarks, "the word 'God' is one of the most embarrassing words you can say. You would rather go naked through the city than talk about God."

One needn't be a Christian to wonder: Are Scandinavians really in the vanguard of religious thought? Or have they simply sealed themselves off from it? I can certainly understand wanting to step inside their bubble -- or else have some of it blow across the Atlantic. Imagine living in a nation where presidents don't sprinkle rhetorical holy water on their wars, where the average citizen declines to believe that Noah's Ark is a historical event, where the term "intelligent design" can be entirely expunged from civilized discourse.

Well, we'll have to imagine it because America will never be that country. And Zuckerman has come up with some good reasons why: our Puritan ancestry; the increased religiosity associated with immigrants and the poor; the mad proliferation of faiths that forces churches to compete for worshippers. In my mind, there's a larger reason. Despite the religious skepticism of our Founding Fathers, the exceptionalism that has marked America's character from the start has always demanded divine corroboration. Take away God, and our destiny doesn't look quite so manifest. The shining city on a hill becomes just another city, just another hill.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: denmark; scandinavia; seeya; sweden
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1 posted on 10/22/2008 5:18:01 AM PDT by RDTF
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To: RDTF
I may move to Australia or Taiwan if Obama wins.
2 posted on 10/22/2008 5:20:50 AM PDT by Perdogg (Raila Amollo Odinga - community organizer)
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To: RDTF

Not all atheists are flaming Leftists. :)


3 posted on 10/22/2008 5:24:11 AM PDT by CE2949BB (McCain/Palin 08)
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To: RDTF

If Obama wins, the Czech Republic might look pretty good.


4 posted on 10/22/2008 5:26:08 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: Perdogg

I’m looking at Switzerland.


5 posted on 10/22/2008 5:29:24 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (democratic socialism is totalitarian communism lying in wait.)
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To: RDTF

If any on the left wishes to emigrate to Scandinavia after they lose the election:

Use the remaining cash in the bailout program to pay the moving expenses, it is a better long term use of the money for the health of this country.


6 posted on 10/22/2008 5:33:13 AM PDT by LRoggy (Peter's Son's Business)
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To: RDTF

No mention of gang rapes by imported muslims

Guess the author missed that part of Scandinavia


7 posted on 10/22/2008 5:34:45 AM PDT by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: RDTF

IF only these whining socialists would actually keep their word and get the hell out of the country like they promised the last two presidential elections ...


8 posted on 10/22/2008 5:44:13 AM PDT by mgc1122
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To: RDTF

I wonder why he didn’t mention the fact that the Mohammedan fiends have pretty much taken over most of Scandinavia. Government policies, generally, are designed to suppress expressions of faith - except, of course, the faith of The One.


9 posted on 10/22/2008 5:44:54 AM PDT by omaoilaodha
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To: Perdogg

I staying right here.........God closes a door but opens a window...we just gotta find it.........with all due respects to my athiest bothers and sisters ;)!!


10 posted on 10/22/2008 5:44:54 AM PDT by Le Chien Rouge
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To: LRoggy

Iceland is having a going out of business sale.


11 posted on 10/22/2008 5:46:17 AM PDT by Perdogg (Raila Amollo Odinga - community organizer)
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To: RDTF
Todd Palin picking out curtain patterns for the vice-presidential mansion.

The American Left: We believe in tolerance, to the extent that we accept porn in our libraries for schoolchildren, homosexual marriage, and partial-birth abortion. We believe that women can do anything at all in the workplace, and that they should be allowed to rise just as high as men there. We teach our children that "Hate is not a family value." And we respect the "differentially enabled."

Then, we turn around and make the husband of a potential womyn vice-president sound like a mincing in interior decorator because we think we can score some points with it, in one fell swoop attacking the homosexual lifestyle, working women, and a mom who struggles to hold down a demanding job and also support her handicapped child, along with the rest of her family.

The American Left: Equal rights for all, except for the people we hate.

12 posted on 10/22/2008 5:47:33 AM PDT by 50sDad (OBAMA: In your heart you know he's Wright.)
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To: Perdogg

He’s confused on “God” versus “Jesus.”

Here’s why.

North Korea has no Jesus. I wonder why he didn’t use that nation as a shining example.

In China there’s no Jesus. You’ll find little baby girls dead on the street because they weren’t wanted.

Stalin had no Jesus. I hear that was a wonderful place to live.

And Cuba is paradise I hear.

The list of nations with no Jesus goes on and on. Iran has God.....but no Jesus. Iran is a wonderful place to live I hear.

And pretty much all the Muslim (No Jesus) countries.

So lump in countries with no Jesus as being the same as countries with no God and that’s what you have. The worse places to live in the world.

I wonder why he didn’t mention any of those nations.


13 posted on 10/22/2008 5:48:04 AM PDT by Eddiehaskell7
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To: Le Chien Rouge
I staying right here.........God closes a door but opens a window...we just gotta find it.........with all due respects to my athiest bothers and sisters ;)!!

After ripping whining liberals about wanting to leave the country over Bush.....there sure are a lot of those who want to abandon it now.
14 posted on 10/22/2008 5:48:29 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: omaoilaodha
Don't worry: Even though athiesm preaches that it is the One True Path to enlightenment and that all other religions are wrong and doomed...it isn't really a religon with it's own set of dogma and philosophical demands.

[/SARCASM]

15 posted on 10/22/2008 5:50:23 AM PDT by 50sDad (OBAMA: In your heart you know he's Wright.)
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To: Perdogg

My wife keeps asking me where we will go if Obama wins. I keep telling her I won’t give up my country.


16 posted on 10/22/2008 5:55:29 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Vote McWhatshisname and PALIN)
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To: 50sDad

The left SAYS that “open mindedness” is a virtue.

Sorry, but I’m not “opening” my mind to lies, like “homosexual lifestyles are equivalent or superior to heterosexual lifestyles” or “abortion simply removes some unwanted tissue”.


17 posted on 10/22/2008 5:58:59 AM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: bmwcyle

If I stay, he will not be my president nor will I ever refer to him as president. I am not going to gird my loins for him either. I am going to view and treat him the same way the left viewed and treated Bush for 8 years.


18 posted on 10/22/2008 5:59:24 AM PDT by Perdogg (Raila Amollo Odinga - community organizer)
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To: CE2949BB

How do you have “unalienable rights endowed by our Creator” if there’s no Creator?

At that point, rights come from a consensus agreement of man, and that can be redefined at any time by changing that consensus. That is liberalism, not conservatism.


19 posted on 10/22/2008 6:01:04 AM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: Perdogg

Yes he will be the enemy.


20 posted on 10/22/2008 6:07:48 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Vote McWhatshisname and PALIN)
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To: Perdogg
I may move to Australia or Taiwan if Obama wins.

Live where you like, but here are some facts on the ground:

Australia is a pretty far-gone socialist place. The only way you can own a gun is if you keep it locked in a locker at the gun range. You can go to the range, take it out and fire some rounds, then you have to lock it back up -- no taking it home with you.

As for Taiwan, if OBammy steals the election, the ChiComs may decide the timing is right to grab Taiwan, something they are going to do, sooner or later.

21 posted on 10/22/2008 6:08:17 AM PDT by webschooner (Welcome to the wonderful world of Socialism -- kindly check your money and possessions at the door.)
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To: RDTF

” remind us that Scandinavians rank near the top in charitable giving to poor nations”

No, Scandinavians do not. Their government does. Americans are far more generous than any other nation on earth—and not by government fiat, either.


22 posted on 10/22/2008 6:12:52 AM PDT by CaspersGh0sts
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To: RDTF

To all of the leftists, please go. It will be fun to see the “tolerant” and “inclusive” liberals escape to the whitest part of Europe. Why do you suppose Scandinavia would have you?


23 posted on 10/22/2008 6:23:49 AM PDT by Sgt_Schultze
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To: Daveinyork

Poland looks good too, they may be the last Christian country when it’s all said and done.


24 posted on 10/22/2008 6:25:11 AM PDT by dfwgator (I hate Illinois Marxists)
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To: dfwgator

“Poland looks good too, they may be the last Christian country when it’s all said and done.”

I’m a Jew.


25 posted on 10/22/2008 6:31:03 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard

I understand that the Swiss are giving in to the Muzzies too.


26 posted on 10/22/2008 6:34:25 AM PDT by Chickensoup ('08 VOTING for the SUPREME COURT that will be BEST for my FAMILY and voting for SARAH PALIN!!!)
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To: RDTF
If McCain wins, should we all move to Scandinavia?

Yes. I suggest driving all the way. Very scenic.

27 posted on 10/22/2008 6:34:52 AM PDT by Niteranger68 (Conservatives..Â…please stop funding liberalism! Scrutinize every dollar you spend!)
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To: Arkinsaw

I have three small children, all are being or will be home-schooled. Under the coming Marxist super-majority, there’s isn’t even a slight chance that I will retain the right to home-school my children. They will be forced into leftist public schools. In effect, the government — led by a leftist from the Bill Ayers school of “education reform” — will be coming for my children.

Sorry, my ancestors fled that kind of tyranny a century ago. And I won’t hesitate to do the same thing.

That’s a little different that fleeing to Canada because Bush might lower your taxes.


28 posted on 10/22/2008 6:54:00 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (democratic socialism is totalitarian communism lying in wait.)
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To: 1234; A knight without armor; AIM-54; Allan; american colleen; AndyPH; anguish; AzSteven; ...
As few as 24 percent of Danes and as few as 16 percent of Swedes believe in a personal deity. . . . In Scandinavia, belief in life after death hovers in the low 30 percent range, as opposed to 81 percent in America. Some 82 percent of Danes and Swedes believe in evolution, while roughly 10 percent believe in hell. Their rate of weekly church attendance is among the lowest on Earth.

This is all very sad--and personally so for me. I have spent a lot of time in Sweden (and Denmark, too). I have a lot of family and friends there. On top of that, I'm a Lutheran pastor who actually believes, teaches, and confesses the historic Christian faith. My grandparents came from Sweden and believed it, too. How that ostensibly Lutheran nation has fallen!

On a trip to Sweden a couple years ago, I talked to one of my father's first cousins, "Uncle Fritz," in his early 90s. He believes in evolution, doesn't believe in God, totally secularized, etc. But he was taught the faith in his childhood, and as I told him of the true gospel of Christ crucified, that old memory moved him to tears. I don't know that it went any further than that, though.

I know a number of fellow Lutheran pastors in Sweden who ARE holding firmly and faithfully to Christian truth, in opposition to the apostate and NOMINALLY Lutheran Church of Sweden. They are fighting the good fight!

Ping to the Swedish Ping List.

29 posted on 10/22/2008 6:57:57 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor and Swedish Ping List master)
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To: Chickensoup

Islam is not recognized by the Swiss government as a legit religion, and immigration restrictions are very tough. But 4% of population is Muslim.


30 posted on 10/22/2008 7:01:20 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (democratic socialism is totalitarian communism lying in wait.)
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard

They have been going wobbly.


31 posted on 10/22/2008 7:04:45 AM PDT by Chickensoup ('08 VOTING for the SUPREME COURT that will be BEST for my FAMILY and voting for SARAH PALIN!!!)
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To: RDTF
Door, ass, bang. Go. If not with God’s blessings, then certainly with mine. Frankly, Louie, there are more entirely too many of you who are Fred Phelps without the Christian trappings. I think even the Scandinavians will be sick of you after a while. You will certainly not be missed here.
32 posted on 10/22/2008 7:06:16 AM PDT by RichInOC (I believe that God exists, that He intervenes in His creation, and that He's a bit of a comedian.)
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To: RDTF; Charles Henrickson

If...no, when McCain and Palin win the election and if the moonbats all decide to emigrate to Scandinavia, there should be plenty of place for us conservative scandinavians if we decide to migrate to the US.

We have far too many leftists here already to make life comfortable.


33 posted on 10/22/2008 7:06:50 AM PDT by ScaniaBoy (Part of the Right Wing Research & Attack Machine)
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To: MrB
How do you have “unalienable rights endowed by our Creator” if there’s no Creator?

At that point, rights come from a consensus agreement of man, and that can be redefined at any time by changing that consensus. That is liberalism, not conservatism.

False dichotomy.

Grab a copy of Leonard Peikoff's Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (Amazon, ARB).

Not going to proselytize. :)

34 posted on 10/22/2008 7:10:36 AM PDT by CE2949BB (McCain/Palin 08)
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To: Chickensoup

The whole damn world’s going wobbly.

Let’s all move to Texas, secede and fight a war for independence. We’re running out of options.


35 posted on 10/22/2008 7:12:42 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (democratic socialism is totalitarian communism lying in wait.)
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To: RDTF
The real Christians left Scandinavia and came the to United States as legal immigrants back in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.
36 posted on 10/22/2008 7:13:23 AM PDT by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: CE2949BB

It is a dichotomy, but not a false one.

You either have man’s rules or God’s rules.

And, sorry, I’m not wasting time reading the philosophical rantings of atheists. I’ve got too much else to read to raise children with the correct worldview.


37 posted on 10/22/2008 7:13:33 AM PDT by MrB (0bama supporters: What's the attraction? The Marxism or the Infanticide?)
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To: Dixie Yooper
The real Christians left Scandinavia and came the to United States as legal immigrants back in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

My grandparents would be a textbook example of this.

There still lots of "real Christians," and real Christian pastors, left in the lands of Scandinavia, it's just that they're badly outnumbered.

38 posted on 10/22/2008 7:23:17 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Swedish-American Lutheran pastor)
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To: RDTF; 50sDad
Todd Palin picking out curtain patterns for the vice-presidential mansion.

I think camo curtains will look great.

Shopping at Cabela's

39 posted on 10/22/2008 8:09:57 AM PDT by TYVets
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To: RDTF
Yeah..."Scandinavia"...where a violent, brutal Muslim immigrant population is invading and taking over whole cities, like Malmo, and where "Scandinavian" girls are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being gang raped by Muslim gangs.

Yeah..."Scandinavia"...that's such a glorious example for any society to aspire to.

They were once Vikings, and today are feminized, passive, eunuchs.

40 posted on 10/22/2008 8:13:55 AM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Dixie Yooper
The real Christians left Scandinavia and came the to United States as legal immigrants back in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s

Some Scandinavians were planting churches in the US in the 1840s & 1850s. Muskego, Koshkonong & a bunch of Holt/Holden/Hope congregations were established before your time line.

Everywhere church & state were directly mingled shows a reduction in the faith of the populations.

41 posted on 10/22/2008 8:53:34 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Charles Henrickson
There still lots of "real Christians," and real Christian pastors, left in the lands of Scandinavia, it's just that they're badly outnumbered.

When you have a state trying to cut out portions of the Bible, because they're politically incorrect, those "real Christians" are swimming against the tide. I've seen it in news out of Denmark & Canada.

Is it any wonder that I see signs of the end times famine all around me?

42 posted on 10/22/2008 9:01:37 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Charles Henrickson
This is all very sad--and personally so for me. I have spent a lot of time in Sweden (and Denmark, too). I have a lot of family and friends there. On top of that, I'm a Lutheran pastor who actually believes, teaches, and confesses the historic Christian faith.

I've found very little news about the state of the church in Norway. I'm thinking it's possibly because Norwegians are considered to be less enlightened by most other Scandinavians.

My grandparents came from Sweden and believed it, too. How that ostensibly Lutheran nation has fallen!

I have to go back a few more generations than you to find my direct connection to Europe. My Norwegian & German immigrant ancestors were all involved in building churches, including one who was a delegate when the Norwegian Synod in Wisconsin was formed in 1853.

My Swede seems to have emigrated mostly due to the economic condition of Sweden in 1888. It's been difficult to nail down anything about his faith, because he was a rare Swede in a "Norwegian" American community.

43 posted on 10/22/2008 9:30:08 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

I think CUBA would be the BEST place for liberals to move to. Universal Healthcare and gun control...a real paradise for liberals.


44 posted on 10/22/2008 9:35:10 AM PDT by Moby Grape
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To: Daveinyork

I’d go for that or maybe Australia.


45 posted on 10/22/2008 9:38:30 AM PDT by hout8475
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To: CE2949BB

I assume the screed rests its argument on “Natural Law”.


46 posted on 10/22/2008 9:38:55 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Impeach the Boy
I think CUBA would be the BEST place for liberals to move to. Universal Healthcare and gun control...a real paradise for liberals.

American liberalism has survived in the right & the left has been trying to kill it off. Those who currently call themselves liberal or progressive aren't liberals, they're collectivist leftists.

It would be nice if they'd do what our religious ancestors did, vote with their feet. Instead, most of them stay in place, crap in their beds & try to force the rest of us to wallow in it.

47 posted on 10/22/2008 9:50:02 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: KosmicKitty
No mention of gang rapes by imported muslims

All of the Scandinavian countries have less rapes per capita than the US.

48 posted on 10/22/2008 9:53:37 AM PDT by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: omaoilaodha
I wonder why he didn’t mention the fact that the Mohammedan fiends have pretty much taken over most of Scandinavia.

Because they haven't. Muslim immigrants are a problem in some Scandinavian/Nordic countries, but they certainly have not "taken over."

49 posted on 10/22/2008 9:56:27 AM PDT by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: RDTF

I guess he forgets to mention that Scandinavia ranks among the highest in suicide rates around the world. And that Finland has had two school shootings in less than a year.


50 posted on 10/22/2008 9:56:32 AM PDT by Ironfocus
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