Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why OBAMA will lose PA (Pflouffe gives away faulty turnout assumptions)
Fox News | 10/24/08 | Thane Banquo

Posted on 10/24/2008 7:56:05 PM PDT by Thane_Banquo

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250251-254 next last
To: Alter Kaker

I don’t believe the Rasmussen. There’s not that much of a spread.


151 posted on 10/24/2008 9:32:50 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: 1035rep
That's what Kerry got in 2004. Perhaps McCain will do significantly better. Or pull off an upset.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

152 posted on 10/24/2008 9:33:31 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 150 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

The two latest VA polls had the race at 1-2 points down.


153 posted on 10/24/2008 9:34:44 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates
There are two theories: either Obama will win by a landslide or it will be a squeaker election. I'm thinking 1980 for the first and 1976 for the second.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

154 posted on 10/24/2008 9:34:48 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: Think free or die

I’m shocked that here in Pittsburgh you see McCain signs outnumbering Obama signs three and four to one in places you’d never expect....like latte-lapping and liberal-infested Mt Lebanon.

About the only places I see a lot of signs for That One are in the Hill District and parts of the North Side that are heavily Black.

I stay out of Homewood and Point Breeze, so I don’t know if the O signs are prevalent there.

But I live on Mt Washington, and there’s more Mac signs here than Obama ones.

This is strange for the usually Blue ‘Burgh


155 posted on 10/24/2008 9:35:01 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates
If McCain can't win VA, its hard to see him holding onto other Red States turning purple. All we can hope is he regains the lead in the Old Dominion State by Election Day.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

156 posted on 10/24/2008 9:36:18 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

Obama will never get anywhere close to Reagan if it were a landslide.


157 posted on 10/24/2008 9:36:29 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: bigbob

Or as my Grandma used to say, figures never lie, but liars figure.

;-)


158 posted on 10/24/2008 9:37:05 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
If your anecdotal reports are right, that should be enough to offset Philadelphia.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

159 posted on 10/24/2008 9:37:22 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

A 1-2 race two days ago. Like I said they are pushing the ads now. We will win VA in the end.


160 posted on 10/24/2008 9:37:39 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates
The Democrats see him as their Ronald Reagan. Let's hope its really close for that favors our side more than theirs.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

161 posted on 10/24/2008 9:38:41 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: Frantzie

The frosting on the cake would be if Obama takes Murtha down into the abyss with him.


162 posted on 10/24/2008 9:39:26 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Thane_Banquo; Norman Bates
Doesn’t matter. No way 2006 was even close to 20 pt Dem advantage.

That's correct Thane, in 2006 the dems had a 3 pt advantage.

163 posted on 10/24/2008 9:39:37 PM PDT by calex59
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

Well that’s the real danger if Obama wins - not that he’ll ever touch 500 or even 400 EVs. They (media and all) will do everything to turn him into “their” Ronald Reagan. I fear he will get credit for the markets naturally correcting themselves in the coming months. You know how the sheeple are.


164 posted on 10/24/2008 9:41:00 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
You're forgetting New Mexico. If Obama loses PA but keeps all the other Kerry states + NM, IA, CO and VA he gets exactly 270 votes. That's enough to win. That's not a crazy scenario, as Obama is +7 in New Mexico, +6 in Colorado, +8 in Iowa, +6 in Virginia, and +3 in Nevada. And that's assuming McCain actually pulls off a come-behind in Pennsylvania. Obama could also still win w/o Pa if he knocks off Missouri (most recent Fox-Rasmussen Poll O 49, M 44) or Indiana (Big Ten and Survey USA both have Obama up). And I'm not sure why you're so absolutely confident that McCain has nothing to worry about in NC, OH or FL, even though all three are trending ok-ish over the last 24 hours. Bottom line -- if McCain wins PA, he's in a bit better position, but it's definitely not over if he wins it. A PA win and an election loss are totally possible pairings.

Most Freepers have had the benefit of evaluating the internals of the polls and understand that they are way off base. Our common (read: conservative) sense tells us that dummy turnout can't possibly end-up being 10% or more than pubbies. Therefore, when the MSM polls show McCain down but not out, we know he will probably win those states regardless of the intent of those polls and the MSM to deflate our hopes and depress the vote against McCain/Palin.

You would do well to take in some of the analysis readily available on FR that explains the sampling methods being used in this election in context with historical data. This election is a dead heat right now which means that McCain has a great chance to repeat Bush's 2004 victory map (plus PA and possibly an upper midwest state as well).
165 posted on 10/24/2008 9:41:38 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

I have lived here all my life, I have never seen such a lack of enthusiasm for the Democrat candidate. In 2000 there were Gore signs everywhere, 2004 Kerry signs everywhere. There is almost nothing here for Obama. I have not spoken to a single Democrat that is voting for Obama. I’m sure its different near the coast but it’s really strange this time around. I have two neighbors that had Kerry signs in 2004 that now have McCain signs in their yards.


166 posted on 10/24/2008 9:43:41 PM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
1. The polls weren't wrong about Kerry. 2. What if monkeys fly out of my butt?

They were wrong, including the exit polls that had Kerry's campaign people calling him "Mr. President" before the polls close.

McCain winning the election - $84 million matching federal funds.

Prime media spot at Barry's election night party - $10k

Watching commie libs like Bathtub Boy and Chrissy Mathews melting down on MSNBC when That One becomes Minus One - PRICELESS!
167 posted on 10/24/2008 9:47:13 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: Frantzie
Any feeling for Italian-Americans in Philly and Bishop Martino speaking about abortion. Are Italian-American still a large voting bloc there?...many of them have moved across the river to south Jersey, and every one that I know, including a long-time, well-connected Democrat politico from Camden County and his wife, can't wait to get to the polls to vote for McCain - my guess is that their friends and relatives still living in south Philly and environs feel very much the same.......
168 posted on 10/24/2008 9:48:00 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Thickman

Exactly.


169 posted on 10/24/2008 9:48:51 PM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
"They could put Joe Stalin on the ballot in NY and CA and he would win."


Other than the snazzy handlebar 'stache, what's the difference between That One and Uncle Joe?


170 posted on 10/24/2008 9:49:28 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Thickman

LOL!!


171 posted on 10/24/2008 9:49:43 PM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Norman Bates
McCain 49.92
Obama 50.08

Those are tough numbers, but McCain can do it.

His best chance IMHO is to win roughly 92% of GOP voters, 15% of RAT voters, and 48% of Indies. That would give him 50.5% in Pennsylvania and probably the Presidency.

172 posted on 10/24/2008 9:49:53 PM PDT by comebacknewt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 120 | View Replies]

To: no dems
Of the 4 States mentioned (PA, FL, VA, and OH), the one I worry about most is Ohio. I think the Dems will steal it with the help of ACORN. What say ye?

He'd not only have to make-up Bush's 120,000 advantage from 2004, he'd have to counter the PUMA's who hate his cheating ways and rednecks who cling to the guns and racism. ACORN will have to manufacture 250,000 votes for Barry to have a shot at OH. Not going to happen.
173 posted on 10/24/2008 9:50:14 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
They were wrong, including the exit polls that had Kerry's campaign people calling him "Mr. President" before the polls close.

The early exit polls were wrong. Early exit polls are not the same thing as telephone polls. Pretending that they are is nuts. The methodology is completely different.

174 posted on 10/24/2008 9:50:14 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Intolerant in NJ

Six months ago I was saying the same thing...the Philly vote will split along racial lines. No one knows better than Philly voters what will happen to the country: they’ve seen it in smaller scale for two decades.


175 posted on 10/24/2008 9:51:57 PM PDT by Windcatcher (Obama is a COMMUNIST and the MSM is his armband-wearing propaganda arm.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 168 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
We don't have President Kerry. The polls said Kerry would lose... and he did. Of the 20 national polls conducted closest to the 2004 election, 17 had Bush ahead, 2 had Kerry ahead, and 1 had a tie. That's pretty good, considering the outcome was Bush 50.7%, Kerry 48.3%.

Those polls were not oversampling dummies by 6 - 14%. Study the internals - you might learn something about how in the tank the MSM and its paid polls are for That One.
176 posted on 10/24/2008 9:54:08 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: comebacknewt
In the 2006 Santorum wipeout, the breakout was 43 (D) 38 (R) 19 (I). If you plug Plouffe's numbers into that turnout model, the results would be: McCain - 56.1 Obama - 43.9 Looks like you are correct. As long as we don't get demolished in turnout, we have a real shot to win it.

Thanks for the numbers. That gives some statistical perspective to what we all think could be the case in PA.
177 posted on 10/24/2008 9:58:34 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
The polling samples are unbelievable. Nearly every second person in the country is an Obamabot.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

178 posted on 10/24/2008 9:58:44 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
Those polls were not oversampling dummies by 6 - 14%.

So you think that at some point since 2004 every single polling organization in the United States decided to change its polling technique? Are they supposed to have done this in a cave outside Zurich or something?

179 posted on 10/24/2008 9:59:14 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

As Rush said a while back, McCain believes the election is won in the last 72 hours...PARTICULARLY this election.

This election is going to come down to the conservative dems and mush middle going to the polls and thinking “do I trust Obama?”

McCain, IMO, has purposely held back ads..as has the GOP...to save their ammunition for the final week. I predict McCain will actually OUT ad Obama the last 3-5 days by a good bit, and bring some of the hardest stuff at the very end.

If it were me, I would have saved Wright and any other charges for the last weekend. That does 2 things. One it leaves a last impression leading to doubt in voters’ minds. Two it helps prevent the MSM from having a complete meltdown and charging racism for three weeks leading up to election day. The final doubt must be cemented without time for Obama or the MSM to get a counter.

I believe the McCain camp knows this, and is saving the hardest ads and the heavy volume for the VERY end. The MSM won’t have time to come up with a counter narrative that McCain is a hate monger. After the election, who cares?

Also McCain has targeted a two pronged electoral vote strategy. One is to run the table on Bush states minus Iowa and NM. The swings through Colorado and hitting VA hard are about that. I think McCain has Florida, and will win Ohio (ACORN being a wildcard....McCain LEGITIMATELY wins in Ohio..but who knows). Second they have also decided the one Gore/Kerry state they can focus on is PA. That is an alternative route if Obama somehow gets CO or VA.

Murtha and Obama’s blunder was a gift from above IMO. It gives McCain a chance. The ad buy for the last week is why they gave up on Michigan IMO. I think they will absolutely go nuclear on Obama in PA, VA, OHIO, CO and Missouri with a dash of FL. Last 5-7 days. By picking Pennsylvania over Michigan and other states they will mulitply their last week ad buys and launch a targeted air raid on the 2 potential paths.


180 posted on 10/24/2008 10:00:39 PM PDT by Crimson Elephant
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
The polling samples are unbelievable. Nearly every second person in the country is an Obamabot.

You're suprised? That happens every election. In 2004, 48% voted for Kerry. In 2000, 49% voted for Gore.

181 posted on 10/24/2008 10:01:00 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 178 | View Replies]

To: comebacknewt

Wow - that’s close. Just a little more.


182 posted on 10/24/2008 10:06:50 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
Some polls are deliberately misleading IMO.

The majority are sincere in their efforts, but differ widely because of their assumptions about the true makeup of the electorate and because of their turnout models.

If RATs do outnumber us by 6%+ on election day, and if the Obama turnout machine is as great as advertised, then it will be a landslide victory for the RATs. If either one of those are not true, we are looking at a much closer race.

If both prove not to be true, we could be looking at President McCain. He is a decided long-shot, but every once in a while they long-shots do come in.

183 posted on 10/24/2008 10:08:03 PM PDT by comebacknewt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker

It’s the fake ACORN registrations.


184 posted on 10/24/2008 10:08:36 PM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: Homer_J_Simpson

I am usually the only McCain car in the Whole Foods (in SoCal) parking lot. Yet today there were two of us. Hope and change!


185 posted on 10/24/2008 10:11:12 PM PDT by Yaelle (One candidate fought America's enemies and one candidate owes all he has to America's enemies)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

To: GCC Catholic

Kerry received 10,000 more votes than Bush from Erie county in 2004.


186 posted on 10/24/2008 10:11:50 PM PDT by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
The early exit polls were wrong. Early exit polls are not the same thing as telephone polls. Pretending that they are is nuts. The methodology is completely different.

Calling Captain Obvious . . . of course they are different. Exit polls are supposed to be more accurate because instead of predicting if someone is going to vote, the poller knows the subject has just cast a ballot. Get the point? Maybe not.
187 posted on 10/24/2008 10:12:16 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: perfect_rovian_storm

Turnout in 2004 was much greater than the 2006 midterms as is always the case in Presidential years. Turnout wins elections.


188 posted on 10/24/2008 10:14:31 PM PDT by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
So you think that at some point since 2004 every single polling organization in the United States decided to change its polling technique? Are they supposed to have done this in a cave outside Zurich or something?

I don't think it, I know it because I read the internals. You might try that sometime. Be careful - failure to examine below the surface of things is a troll trait.
189 posted on 10/24/2008 10:16:21 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: bray

I wish someone would do the research on the polls in the primaries. It is my strong impression that Obama usually polled much higher than the actual result, but don’t have the data at my fingertips to check.


190 posted on 10/24/2008 10:22:31 PM PDT by cookcounty (Sarah and Todd Palin : They're more like us than we are.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker

The Dems have done a good job of registering new voters. The question is whether this will translate into more Dem votes or not. I assume the pollsters changed the weighting to reflect the new registration numbers. The unknown factor is how much of this is due to ACORN and Reps/Independents shifting during the highly competitive Dem primaries.


191 posted on 10/24/2008 10:22:54 PM PDT by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: cookcounty

Just the opposite. Obama usually polled at or below the number. Rarely did he exceed the poll forecasts.


192 posted on 10/24/2008 10:26:17 PM PDT by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
Exit polls are supposed to be more accurate because instead of predicting if someone is going to vote, the poller knows the subject has just cast a ballot.

Supposed to be? Supposed to be by whom? Thickman?

In fact, the exit polls in '04 were fraught with error for reasons that are well understood by political scientists.

The vast majority of poll checkers were college students and they had way too much leeway in picking interviewees. As a result, the exit polled universe in '04 skewed heavily towards the kinds of people who would be eager to talk to college students -- a population considerably more Democratic than the overall vote universe.

There have been numerous papers written on this.

That error is unique to face-to-face exit polling, and has nothing to do with telephone polling. In fact, the telephone polling in 2004 was, on the whole, extremely accurate.

193 posted on 10/24/2008 10:27:58 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
I don't think it, I know it because I read the internals.

So you believe that every single polling organization in the country is in the tank for Obama? Every one? Not one refused to sell out their methodology? I read polls' internals too. But I also try to understand them, something I don't think you do.

Be careful - failure to examine below the surface of things is a troll trait.

Careful who you call a troll. I've been on FR for longer than you have, pal.

194 posted on 10/24/2008 10:30:37 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker
So you believe that every single polling organization in the country is in the tank for Obama? Every one? Not one refused to sell out their methodology? I read polls' internals too. But I also try to understand them, something I don't think you do.

Typical superficial comeback. Did I say every one? No! In fact, there are three respected polls that currently have the race at 1, 2 and 3 points. I'm referring only to the polls you are citing (which reinforce your argument but are the ones that ARE in the tank as evidenced by their oversampling of dummies).

Careful who you call a troll. I've been on FR for longer than you have, pal. Reading is fundamental. I did not call you a troll. I do stand by the assertion that your observations are troll-like. Pal.
195 posted on 10/24/2008 11:11:38 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker

You’re over analyzing the situation.

If McCain wins PA, he’s going to win VA, NC, IN, MO, etc.

If McCain loses IN or NC, it will be a nationwide route. There is talk of 50 separate contests, but the states generally move in tandem with the national popular vote. There are exceptions of course, but I don’t think you’ll see that this year with PA.


196 posted on 10/24/2008 11:12:49 PM PDT by Chet 99 (Vote McCain/Palin, or this will be our future: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTb5EFZmgbs)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: Alter Kaker

Thanks for supporting my point. Now that we agree on the fact that exit polling was wrong, can we address the issue that you keep avoiding? Namely, that the methodology of the polls you cling to (as opposed to others that don’t show Barry way ahead) might be flawed by oversampling dummies, African-American, urban dwellers and youngsters? That was a rhetorical question because after several vacuous posts by you I don’t expect an answer.


197 posted on 10/24/2008 11:14:57 PM PDT by Thickman (Term limits are the answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: Thane_Banquo

Yeah, my head hurts...I have to go read that again.


198 posted on 10/24/2008 11:18:40 PM PDT by Bush Revolution ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."...Let's win this thing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Asceticon

More stories like this please, they make my day.


199 posted on 10/24/2008 11:20:01 PM PDT by Bush Revolution ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."...Let's win this thing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Thickman
The difference is that in '04, the exit polling consisted of one single consortium effort, using a single methodology.

If you're criticizing 2008's telephone polls, then you're going to be criticizing different methodologies by several dozen different independent organizations. For the most part, those methodologies have been accurate in the past -- and were in 2004. Now there are instances where the methodologies are clearly unusual -- Zogby's Internet Polling being the obvious one -- but for the most part the sample methods have been consistent election to election. And the results too.

That was a rhetorical question because after several vacuous posts by you I don’t expect an answer.

I don't know what your problem is but you have one hell of an attitude.

200 posted on 10/24/2008 11:22:41 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250251-254 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson