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So CFCs are just like DDT, another beneficial chemical banished to the gods of environmental correctness. I've never figured out how it's okay to dump pounds of chlorine into my pool every year, but venting heavier than air CFCs destroys the ozone? Maybe someone can explain it to me.

Also, is there any empirical research underlying the CFC phase-out or was it all based on a theory and computer modeling? We're about to be saddled with an economically destructive carbon tax based not on empirical evidence, but highly flawed computer simulations. Before we turn over our economy to the environmentalists shouldn't we look at their track record?

1 posted on 10/25/2008 1:09:56 PM PDT by Entrepreneur
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To: Entrepreneur
Galactic cosmic rays, solar sunspot cycle, cloud formation (on Earth), and 'global warming'.

_____________________________________

If you look at the chart below, you will see that sunspot activity (during solar maxes--the individual peaks) has been relatively high since about 1900 and almost non-existent for the period between about 1625 and 1725. This period is known as the Maunder (sunspot) Minimum or "Little Ice Age".

From BBC News [yr: 2004]:
"A new [2004] analysis shows that the Sun is more active now than it has been at anytime in the previous 1,000 years. Scientists based at the Institute for Astronomy in Zurich used ice cores from Greenland to construct a picture of our star's activity in the past. They say that over the last century the number of sunspots rose at the same time that the Earth's climate became steadily warmer."..."In particular, it has been noted that between about 1645 and 1715, few sunspots were seen on the Sun's surface. This period is called the Maunder Minimum after the English astronomer who studied it. It coincided with a spell of prolonged cold weather often referred to as the "Little Ice Age". Solar scientists strongly suspect there is a link between the two events - but the exact mechanism remains elusive."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3869753.stm

It's really hard to imagine how this little ball of fire could have any impact on our climate at all.

But the main arguments being made for a solar-climate connection is not so much to do with the heat of the Sun but rather with its magnetic cycles. When the Sun is more magnetically active (typically around the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle --we are a few yrs away at the moment), the Sun's magnetic field is better able to deflect away incoming galactic cosmic rays (highly energetic charged particles coming from outside the solar system). The GCRs are thought to help in the formation of low-level cumulus clouds -the type of clouds that BLOCK sunlight and help cool the Earth. So when the Sun's MF is acting up (not like now -the next sunspot max is expected in about 2012), less GCRs reach the Earth's atmosphere, less low level sunlight-blocking clouds form, and more sunlight gets through to warm the Earth's surface...naturally. Clouds are basically made up of tiny water droplets. When minute particles in the atmosphere become ionized by incoming GCRs they become very 'attractive' to water molecules, in a purely chemical sense of the word. The process by which the Sun's increased magnetic field would deflect incoming cosmic rays is very similar to the way magnetic fields steer electrons in a cathode ray tube or electrons and other charged particles around the ring of a subatomic particle accelerator.-ETL

____________________________________________________

There's a relatively new book out on the subject titled The Chilling Stars. It's written by one of the top scientists advancing the theory (Henrik Svensmark).

http://www.sciencedaily.com/books/t/1840468157-the_chilling_stars_the_new_theory_of_climate_change.htm

And here is the website for the place where he does his research:
2008: "The Center for Sun-Climate Research at the DNSC investigates the connection between variations in the intensity of cosmic rays and climatic changes on Earth. This field of research has been given the name 'cosmoclimatology'"..."Cosmic ray intensities – and therefore cloudiness – keep changing because the Sun's magnetic field varies in its ability to repel cosmic rays coming from the Galaxy, before they can reach the Earth." :
http://www.spacecenter.dk/research/sun-climate

100,000-Year Climate Pattern Linked To Sun's Magnetic Cycles:
ScienceDaily (Jun. 7, 2002) HANOVER, N.H.
Thanks to new calculations by a Dartmouth geochemist, scientists are now looking at the earth's climate history in a new light. Mukul Sharma, Assistant Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth, examined existing sets of geophysical data and noticed something remarkable: the sun's magnetic activity is varying in 100,000-year cycles, a much longer time span than previously thought, and this solar activity, in turn, may likely cause the 100,000-year climate cycles on earth. This research helps scientists understand past climate trends and prepare for future ones.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/06/020607073439.htm

From a well-referenced wikipedia.com column (see wiki link for ref 14):
"Sunspot numbers over the past 11,400 years have been reconstructed using dendrochronologically dated radiocarbon concentrations. The level of solar activity during the past 70 years is exceptional — the last period of similar magnitude occurred over 8,000 years ago. The Sun was at a similarly high level of magnetic activity for only ~10% of the past 11,400 years, and almost all of the earlier high-activity periods were shorter than the present episode.[14]"

[14] ^Solanki, Sami K.; Usoskin, Ilya G.; Kromer, Bernd; Schüssler, Manfred & Beer, Jürg (2004), “Unusual activity of the Sun during recent decades compared to the previous 11,000 years”, Nature 431: 1084–1087, doi:10.1038/nature02995, . Retrieved on 17 April 2007 , "11,000 Year Sunspot Number Reconstruction". Global Change Master Directory. Retrieved on 2005-03-11.


"Reconstruction of solar activity over 11,400 years. Period of equally high activity over 8,000 years ago marked.
Present period is on [the right]. Values since 1900 not shown."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation

2 posted on 10/25/2008 1:13:12 PM PDT by ETL (Smoking gun evidence on ALL the ObamaRat-commie connections at my newly revised FR Home/About page)
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To: Entrepreneur
Atlas needs to shrug. The elite political parasites need to be sloughed off.

Ozone, global warming, peak oil.....it's all deceit to gain control.

The elites want the rest of us gone.

3 posted on 10/25/2008 1:14:43 PM PDT by stboz
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To: Entrepreneur

This is, of course, due to the Bush/Rove/Cheney Orbiting Cosmic Ray Generator/s;)


4 posted on 10/25/2008 1:15:24 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: Entrepreneur

Not soon enough to save our asthma meds in the good old wheezing US of A. Doesn’t matter to the drug companies since they get a whole new cycle of patent protection for the replacement product.


5 posted on 10/25/2008 1:19:33 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Colin, descending)
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To: Entrepreneur

Since my days as a chemistry major 25 years ago CFC induced ozone depletion has always been questionable.

Banning of CFC’s had much more to do with the various Freon products going off patent in the mid ‘90s.


8 posted on 10/25/2008 1:26:00 PM PDT by seowulf (Discipline knows no emotion and frequently runs counter to the whims of panic or elation.)
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To: Entrepreneur
Photobucket
9 posted on 10/25/2008 1:31:04 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God - G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Entrepreneur
Could the active volcano Mt. Erebus
have anything to do with the ozone hole ?

Nah; must be man made !


10 posted on 10/25/2008 1:40:11 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: Entrepreneur

Wow, Scientists actually observe, document and try to figure things out?

Science for the win!


11 posted on 10/25/2008 1:44:30 PM PDT by PureSolace (Trust in God)
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To: Entrepreneur

“But more and more evidence now points to a new theory that the cosmic rays (energy particles that originate in space) play a major role.”

You just gotta shake your head. The same nitwits who told us the Ozone hole was the biggest man made catastrophe to ever hit the earth are the same people who are now telling us global warming is man made.


12 posted on 10/25/2008 1:56:13 PM PDT by yazoo
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To: Entrepreneur

There are some aspects to the ozone hole that need clarification.

To start with, in the thickest part of the ozone layer, there is only between 2 and 8 parts per million (ppm) of ozone. If all the ozone in the ozone layer were compressed at sea level, it would only be 2 or 3mm thick.

It is also important to remember that you have to imagine the ozone layer in three dimensions, a blanket of atmosphere from 20km to 40km in altitude.

Now imagine the ozone hole. It still has some ozone in it, just less than between 2-8 ppm. And the hole itself, which has a very large area, isn’t the problem, it is the *growth* of this hole, a much smaller total area, which is the problem. That is, not the entire hole, just a ring around the edge of the hole.

Granted, a ring that goes from 20-40km up. But that being said, why has no one made the obvious proposition: “Why don’t we put some more ozone up there?”

All you would seem to need is a sea ship capable of generating a large quantity of frozen ozone (-315F). Put in a strong container, the ship then launches a high altitude tethered balloon carrying the frozen ozone. When at altitude, nozzles on the bottom of the container open, and the ozone boils out into the relatively far warmer atmosphere. In doing so, the balloon is pushed to a much higher altitude.

The ozone then diffuses through the edge of the ozone hole, shrinking it in size.

It might take ten or twenty such ozone dumping flights to achieve a noticeable effect, but it would happen, and as such help mitigate the problem.


13 posted on 10/25/2008 2:04:47 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: zot; SeraphimApprentice; Interesting Times

science ping


14 posted on 10/25/2008 2:08:48 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead (3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87))
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To: Entrepreneur
A University of Waterloo scientist says that cosmic rays are a key cause for expanding the hole in the ozone layer over the South Pole -- and predicts the largest ozone hole will occur in one or two weeks.

Who would have thought?
15 posted on 10/25/2008 2:15:14 PM PDT by monkeycard (There's no such thing as too much ammo.)
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To: Entrepreneur

CFCs, DDT, Cyclamates, Alar. It’s the story; it’s the power; it’s the fear you can strike in others; it’s almost never the facts and you never wait to confirm a leftist theory.


16 posted on 10/25/2008 2:16:07 PM PDT by jimfree (Dems beat up girls who don't toe the line.)
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To: Entrepreneur

The day is coming when environmental gods will no longer be satisfied with mere chemical offerings. They will demand humans.


17 posted on 10/25/2008 2:23:24 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Entrepreneur


18 posted on 10/25/2008 2:41:06 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: OKSooner; honolulugal; Killing Time; Beowulf; Mr. Peabody; RW_Whacko; gruffwolf; BlessedBeGod; ...

FReepmail me to get on or off


Click on POGW graphic for full GW rundown

New!!: Dr. John Ray's
GREENIE WATCH

Ping me if you find one I've missed.


A bit off the usual topic, but...
20 posted on 10/25/2008 3:23:17 PM PDT by xcamel (Conservatives start smart, and get rich, liberals start rich, and get stupid.)
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To: Entrepreneur; Defendingliberty; WL-law; Genesis defender; proud_yank; FrPR; enough_idiocy; ...
 




Beam me to Planet Gore !

22 posted on 10/25/2008 3:33:57 PM PDT by steelyourfaith
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To: Entrepreneur; backhoe

The banning of CFCs cost us dearly as a civilization in increased energy use, materials costs for bigger heat exchangers due to less efficient refrigerants, etc. It’s hard to beat R-11, R-12, and R-22.


23 posted on 10/25/2008 3:56:51 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (Obama: Carter's only chance to avoid going down in history as the worst U.S. president ever.)
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