Posted on 11/11/2008 9:15:45 PM PST by GATOR NAVY
WASHINGTON — A coalition of atheists and agnostics wants the new White House to protect young military members from what they see as rampant religious discrimination in the services.
The Secular Coalition for America held a news conference Monday urging new rules against proselytizing and more training for chaplains on how to handle nonreligious troops.
"When they say ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’ it’s slanderous," said Wayne Adkins, a former Army first lieutenant who served in Iraq in 2004 and 2005. "To deny their existence is to deny that they serve."
The coalition also wants President-elect Obama to develop a new directive for all chaplains and commanders that eliminates public prayers from any mandatory-attendance events for troops and ensures the Defense Department will not endorse any single religion, or even the idea of religion over nonreligion.
Jason Torpy, a retired soldier and president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, said his group isn’t opposed to Christianity or any other organized religion.
"We just recognize that religion and religious people get a lot of support from the military," he said. "What about the rest of us?"
Torpy said his group has fielded hundreds of complaints from servicemembers who believe they’ve been harassed, passed over for promotion or forced into retirement for not following the religious preferences of their commanding officers.
Adkins said equal opportunity office investigators in the service ignored his complaints about harassment and mistreatment because he was an atheist, which in part led to his decision to leave the service.
Army Maj. Laurel Williams, currently stationed in Florida, said she has filed complaints about military conventions and programs that are little more than Christian rallies, but received little or no response.
About one-fifth of current servicemembers identify themselves as having no religious preference, according to Defense Department statistics.
Only a small percentage of troops identify themselves as atheists or agnostics, but Torpy said that’s because they fear retribution. Without new rules, he said, there isn’t any guarantee they can avoid that kind of treatment.
"We’re as dedicated to the military as our Christian counterparts," he said. "We just want to serve our country, too."
As far as "support" for the rest of us, during an extended stay I had at Yokosuka Naval Hospital 500 miles from my family and command, the only non-medical person who regularly came to see me was the hospital chaplain. He sure didn't ask me if I was a Christian before helping me.
I'm guessing GOD might feel the same way.
Do atheists watch movies or tell their kids stories? If so why can’t they just chalk religion up as a fairy tale? Do they celebrate the holidays? What do they do for Christmas? Easter? Do they tell their kids the absolute truth about everything?
SNIPPET FROM POST NO. 1: “”We’re as dedicated to the military as our Christian counterparts,” he said. “We just want to serve our country, too.””
#
OPINION:
WELL NOW, THAT’S GREAT. If you really mean that; then there’s no problem.
If you don’t mean it...see that door?
Atheism is NOT a religion, so it can’t be discriminated against.
Oh it is a religion? Then I have a SERIOUS problem with mixing their religious agenda into the schools (Evolution)....
Aren’t all chaplains counselors/support staff without regard to religion?
Gays want new rules on marriage in California.
Whats the difference?
huh?
It's just a saying, an expression. Nothing more.
"We just recognize that religion and religious people get a lot of support from the military," he said. "What about the rest of us?"
You're right. What's your point?
Religion provides comfort for soldiers and their families.
Torpy said his group has fielded hundreds of complaints from servicemembers who believe they’ve been harassed, passed over for promotion or forced into retirement for not following the religious preferences of their commanding officers.
Investigate each complaint.
I'm sure - given the number of complaints - that there are a handful of cases where the atheist was unfairly treated, but I'm willing to bet the majority of the cases involved a whiny atheist that started something he couldn't handle.
For the record: I'm an atheist.
Ping to read later
Though I’m a Christian, what you’ve said in post 1 jibes with what I saw during my term of service.
These people are liars with an agenda, and they dishonor the uniform.
LOL!
Don't these people have anything better to do?
In my years as a chaplain on active duty, I saw exactly one regular occurence that might cause an atheist to wonder. It is as pointed out on this thread...the prayers at required public ceremonies.
(1) One can end all such prayers because they unnecessarily promote a variety of religion each time one is prayed.
(2) One can continue such prayers because they are a tradition in the same way as a “pass and review” in a required ceremony is a tradition. In other words, the religious content is not the point. The point is maintaining the tradition. In this sense, they would be similar to the statue of the 10 commandments placed in the town square in 1851. They are tradition and are not there because of a religious message being imposed on anyone.
I think #2 is a valid explanation of their existence. At the same time, if the prayers are going to be required to take a certain form that avoids religious content, then I would be opposed to giving up my freedom to write the prayer of my choice for the event. In that case, I would support #1.
There are no atheists in the after-life.
I assume you realize that evolution isn’t something that originates in atheism - it originates from the scientific method, which is why it is taught in science classes.
The first and only situation I ever encountered where true religious tolerance is actually practiced, was in the DOD.
I learned that when a prayer was said before a squadron meeting,one could choose to close your eyes and bow your head, look straight ahead with eyes wide open, or merely glance down, with unbowed head.
I most often choose the latter, respecting my peers rights to their own beliefs, secure enough in my own beliefs that I felt no need to try to force my personal spiritual preferences on others.
Atheists need to learn to respect the idea of religious freedom and tolerance.
Freedom of religion means everyone can choose their own, or none.
It does not mean religion itself does not exist.
No matter how atheist this dude trys to be, he’ll still pray in the foxhole.
In my 20 years of military service at eight different commands I never any evidence of this...
“Atheism is NOT a religion, so it can’t be discriminated against.”
It is a creed and should not be discriminated against.
In the same way we tolerate other religions and Gods we don’t believe in.
They don’t believe in any. What’s the difference to Christians between Mohammed and “nothing”?
I never saw any evidence of this...
Thus making the antithesits' atheism the defacto state religion. No public reference to god, you will just have to bow to your atheist betters.
Like a quote I’ve read on here from various FReepers that have served, there aren’t any atheists when the bullets are flying right over your head and you’re scrunched up behind cover trying to avoid getting hit.
Well, if your fellow Christian countrymen like to say an evening prayer over the intercom, why do you care? why do you have to oppose them or make it so they cannot do that? How is that respectful of allowing them to practice their beliefs?
Hmmm...you might have misunderstood me.
This is our heritage.
This is our country.
This is our military.
Christians praying over the intercom doesn’t bother me at all.
You might check my posting history.
Have a good evening.
Secular troops cannot win wars against religious enemies.
Red Herring...
There's a difference between (1) not mentioning any beliefs, and (2) preaching, "there is a God" OR "there is no God."
I was replying to the snippet you copied. I saw your response, I totally agree with you. I was answering the snippet as you did.
Ok.
Thanks Secret Agent Man.
Yeah, sorry about that - stream of consciousness reading thing going on there.
Not a problem.
First, thank you for your input GATOR NAVY.
Although this is arguably like comparing apples and oranges the idea of the elimination of prayers and non-endorsement of religion in military circles does not complement, in my opinion, the spirit of the Fairness Doctrine that the Obama Administration also wants to promote. Given that the spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ is typically at the heart of such controvercies, such anti-religous expression policies send the disturbing signal that people are "free" to discuss both sides of any issue except Christianity.
I think half the problem is the reliance of commanders upon chaplains - who are unavoidably a chimera of church wed to state - as though they are social workers.
I did, however, witness intimidation of Christians by the bureaucracy - especially in the latter years of my service. Increasingly, Christianity was singled out for more regulation, pressure, e-mail directives, and ridicule.
Some of this came about during the Clinton years, but it also began to accelerate during the tenure of GW Bush after Mickey Weinstein sued the Air Force.
In the late 90s, I began to witness this expressed towards Christians as opposed to atheists.
After 22 years in the Army - I can say that I never saw this as an issue. I was a practicing Christian and probably only came across 2 or 3 soldiers who denied God or did not have a profession. I did also check the no religious preference on the form and still have the dog tags with that on them. My issue was that I knew what I believed and so did not care who was talking/preaching. One of the two guys who professed no belief hung around us for the company - I would guess it was pretty lonely in his own little world by himself.
“Those who beat their swords into plows - plow for those who didn’t.”
- Anonymous
Commanders definitely have more of an eye toward the pastoral skills of the chaplain than they do toward the strictly religious ministry.
The issue when it came down to it in federal court decades ago was the right of soldiers fully to practice their faith when placed by their nation in dangerous and/or separated locations. The court actually ruled that the chaplaincy was the best answer to the problem despite any areas where there might be an appearance of conflict between church and state.
If it is a responsibility to provide those soldiers with “beans and bullets,” so that they won’t die, then it’s also a responsibility to provide what they consider a critical need about life after death, should such occur.
My experience and my reading of history says that on the battlefield with death staring them in the face, believers are adamant about fully practicing their faith. I’m not just talking about “let us pray.” They want the full range: worship, prayer, minister, sacraments, funerals, fellowship, bible, teaching, preaching, and even Sunday School.
The person who becomes that religious leader occupies a very powerful position in the minds of those soldiers. It behooves any commander to have the confidence of any religious leader who rises to prominence among warriors. And THEY will have a religious leader, whether officially or unofficially.
Should have pinged you to #41
Same.
Should have pinged you to #41.
Yeppers, all will see & believe, and most will be praying for an end to the torment...
I could whine day and night (I used to) about being a minority, but I don’t. Athiests as well as all minorities need to understand that most “slights” are unintentional, most people don’t “join” a majority to persecute, and everyone has some issues. Most people are just trying to get along in life. The people that just want to stir up trouble, or to persecute, need to be addressed, and I am sure they are. Tolerance goes both ways.
It is man’s nature to rely less on God when things are going well and draw closer to Him in times of difficulty. I believe that this is a natural response even to those who claim to be atheists. The phrase, “there are no atheists in foxholes,” sprang from experience.
I cannot imagine how the military would operate without chaplains and I cannot begin to express my gratitude for what you and all of the other chaplains throughout history have done. Not only do you have all of the ministerial duties that other clergymen do, you have the incredible duty of counseling young men and women who are dealing with the guilt of taking human life even though it is justified.
The religion of Secular (atheistic) Humanism has a funny, and infuriating, legal standing.
It has been ruled that SH IS a religion when it comes to conscientious objection and protection from discrimination,
but NOT a religion when faced with the establishment clause.
How CONVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENIENT.
“Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented.” (Provine, W.B.)
It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.