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When Seconds Count
WCPO channel 9 ^

Posted on 11/14/2008 2:23:54 AM PST by hoosierham

Follow link to story acknowkedging the danger of gun-free signs and zones,and the "new" police tactics.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; gunfreezone; gunfreezones; guns; rkba; shallnotbeinfringed

1 posted on 11/14/2008 2:23:54 AM PST by hoosierham
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To: hoosierham
In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him not to do so.

Whoa.

2 posted on 11/14/2008 2:26:13 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (G-d watch over and protect Sarah Palin and her family.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Whoa is right!

From the article:

"The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits.

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible.

Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event.

They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.

As soon as they're confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters typically turn the gun on themselves."

Very Very Interesting,,, Ping for more reading and to pass along to others!

3 posted on 11/14/2008 2:40:54 AM PST by TYVets
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To: hoosierham
The article implies that the police failed at Columbine because they needed time to form a tactical unit. In truth, there were enough policemen on hand to form a "tactical battalion" but nobody among them had the nerve to go directly into the building and face the killers.

What all of us saw were heavily armed and armored police officers, dressed in the most stylish black commando uniforms, standing in clumps outside the building (some actually eating doughnuts) and yelling at the kids who did escape.

The writer of the article assumes that our police have the guts to take on the "active killers" when in practice, selfless and brave individuals are a rarity. The whole damn bunch of Columbine police should have been fired for their gutless performance or at least, disarmed and reduced to meter maids.

4 posted on 11/14/2008 2:49:26 AM PST by Chinstrap61a
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To: hoosierham
The longer police wait the more people die. The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.

No kidding? Imagine that!

5 posted on 11/14/2008 2:53:29 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
...tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

I'm sure our new administration will make the signs unnecessary. Carrying by civilians will be strictly PROHIBITED at any time (just like in Hussein's home state)! Makes things easier (and fairer which it is all about) for all criminals, not just the mass murderers.

6 posted on 11/14/2008 2:57:35 AM PST by TexasRedeye (Eschew obfuscation)
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To: R. Scott

This desreves a great big DUH!!


7 posted on 11/14/2008 2:59:40 AM PST by liberateUS
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To: TexasRedeye
Makes things easier (and fairer which it is all about) for all criminals, not just the mass murderers.

Even murder, ultimately, is (under the Obama Regime) just another commodity to be "redistributed."

8 posted on 11/14/2008 2:59:42 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (G-d watch over and protect Sarah Palin and her family.)
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To: hoosierham

Did a websearch and found an interesting article on “single officer response” training programs:

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/feature.html?featureID=3593

The only downside to this approach is that a CCW holder responding to the gunfire might also be mistaken for the “active shooter/killer.” Not sure what TTP would unknot that rope.


9 posted on 11/14/2008 3:17:40 AM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: Chinstrap61a
The writer of the article assumes that our police have the guts to take on the "active killers" when in practice, selfless and brave individuals are a rarity.

I don't know. I think it may be more common than you let on. I know it is anecdotal, in the past 4-5 years, the KCPD and MAST ambulance have had several officers/staff injured taking on would be mass murders and rescuing people. One bad guy was actually gunned down inside a mall, as 2 police officers went in after him; stopping a potential bloodbath.

10 posted on 11/14/2008 3:17:50 AM PST by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: Turbo Pig
"I don't know. I think it may be more common than you let on."

I hope that you're right and that I'm wrong - but Columbine was a shameful disaster and at Virginia Tech the campus cops were useless and the real cops took a while to get there.

Like everyone else, I'd like to believe that our police officers were willing to risk themselves for all of us.

11 posted on 11/14/2008 3:27:56 AM PST by Chinstrap61a
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To: Chinstrap61a

“...when in practice, selfless and brave individuals are a rarity.”

It is because this is true that such things as police and military were reserved to men. In the male world there is leverage to make men who might be scared shitless perform under fire, ie; you lose the right to call yourself a man if you don’t AT ALL TIMES rise to a standard.

In the feminized cop culture what we saw at Columbine was par for the course.


12 posted on 11/14/2008 3:35:51 AM PST by TalBlack
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To: hoosierham

duh! how long must this insanity go on, how many innocent people must die before the ruling class gets it?

there is only one effective defense agaionst a nut with a gun, or ‘active shooter’ as the article puts it.

waiting around with one’s head up one’s kiester for police to arrive is lunacy.


13 posted on 11/14/2008 3:36:51 AM PST by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: camle
A good example of a system that works is Israel, where an Arab runs amok with a bulldozer killing anyone he sees.
A civilian with their weapon jumps up on the dozer and shoots the Arab. Case closed.
14 posted on 11/14/2008 4:00:58 AM PST by Recon Dad (Marsoc Dad)
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To: Chinstrap61a
Like everyone else, I'd like to believe that our police officers were willing to risk themselves for all of us.

I'd like to think that too. I know some police officers and they are courageous on a daily basis. I don't want to rely on their bravery for the safety of my family, though. The public puts way too much reliance on the police. There is truth in the line, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." Even the bravest police officer will not prevent a crime if he is not on scene.

Truth is that despite their spectacular nature, Columbine and VA Tech incidents are the exception, and not the rule. You don't hear about the 100's of incidents daily where an armed citizen, prevents a crime, because no crime is committed. Mass killings only highlight the stupidity of relying solely on the police to prevent crime; as the Liberals would have us do. Had there been an armed guard, or teacher at either location, the outcome could have been dramatically different.

15 posted on 11/14/2008 4:35:55 AM PST by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: Chinstrap61a
The whole damn bunch of Columbine police should have been fired for their gutless performance or at least, disarmed and reduced to meter maids.

I have ask this question before, but have not had an accurate reply.

The police/swat team arrived at the Columbine School but it was at least 1 to 2 hours or possibly longer before they entered the school to go after the the killers.

Does anyone know exactly how long they waited?

A teacher was wounded but alive for a considerable length of time after he was shot. Students with cell phones called to get advice on how best to care for the teacher, but he died before the police entered the building.

I have to wonder were there students who might have survived the attack had they had received timely medical attention.

Two words describe the actions of the Columbine police that day:

Cowardly - Despicable

16 posted on 11/14/2008 4:51:45 AM PST by TYVets
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To: liberateUS
This desreves a great big DUH!!

Yes, it is filled with information and conclusions most of us already know to be true; but it is also quite refreshing to see a main stream media outlet actually PUBLISH it.

17 posted on 11/14/2008 5:00:16 AM PST by WayneS (HELP! My beloved Commonwealth is becoming MARYLAND!)
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ping


18 posted on 11/14/2008 5:11:50 AM PST by cizinec
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To: liberateUS
The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks...

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

It's possible that "DUH" may be an understatement but "NO $... SHERLOCK" could get one banned.

19 posted on 11/14/2008 5:14:56 AM PST by InABunkerUnderSF (Illegal Immigration is not about the immigration. Gun control is not about the guns.)
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To: hoosierham
I thought this was rather pointed as well: Criminals for Gun Control.
20 posted on 11/14/2008 5:26:56 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Captain Rhino

The article you linked to is a must read for any patrol officer.

Prior to Columbine, the active shooter scenario was relatively unknown. Police training was oriented to a hostage situation, where waiting for SWAT is an appropriate response. Also, most officers trained to clear buildings were trained to clear buildings where somebody was hiding or lying in wait.

In the article, Sgt. Haggard points out that in an active shooter situation, a single officer may apply enough pressure on the shooter to disrupt his plans and end, or at least contain the situation until backup arrives.

For a CCW holder, the situation would be more dicey due to lack of equipment, etc. On the other hand, the CCW might be more likely to be right there and a surprise to the would be shooter.


21 posted on 11/14/2008 6:29:46 AM PST by pelicandriver
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To: hoosierham

Wow, we had to wait for the experts to weigh in on this? Wonder if we can start the genocide hearings against the gun banners?


22 posted on 11/14/2008 6:56:55 AM PST by 556x45
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To: pelicandriver

Agree with what you wrote.

My concern is how a CCW holder, who is on the scene and armed (dig at all those “gun free” zones), can respond aggressively to the active shooter without being mistaken by the first responding officer AS the active shooter.

The inclination of the officer, as described by Sgt Haggard in his account of the incident he was involved in, is to immediately focus on the individual with a gun out who is shooting. That is perfectly understandable. But, in a CCW environment, is that person really the active shooter OR the CCW holder who is just trying to pin down or eliminate the active shooter. The first responding officer, arriving in the middle of the event and with imperfect information, has to sort out it quickly since time, as the article noted, enables the real active shooter to seek out and shoot more innocent victims.


23 posted on 11/14/2008 8:14:40 AM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: Captain Rhino

Being very vocal would be a start.


24 posted on 11/14/2008 9:03:58 AM PST by School of Rational Thought (Sarah Palin - High ideals on high heels)
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To: Captain Rhino
Not to worry!

For the paltry sum of $9.99 you can get one of these nifty little signs to put on the back of your jacket.

Optionally you could choose from an asortment shuh as, FBI ATF or whatever you want. If you work for the MSM you may want the special YELLOW stripe that runs vertically up the middle of your spine.


25 posted on 11/14/2008 12:36:42 PM PST by An Old Man (Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way)
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To: An Old Man

LOL!!


26 posted on 11/14/2008 12:48:10 PM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: Captain Rhino
My concern is how a CCW holder, who is on the scene and armed (dig at all those “gun free” zones), can respond aggressively to the active shooter without being mistaken by the first responding officer AS the active shooter.

Have to remember to yell "Drop the gun!" ,"Give yourself up!", etc. at the bad guy.

If you hear a voice behind you saying drop it, will have gamble that it is a cop and not a bad guy (turning around holding the gun to check out to confirm it is a police officer might be unhealthy) and drop to the ground and hope 1) It really is a cop and 2) the cop can deal with the incoming fire from the bad guy.

27 posted on 11/14/2008 1:12:37 PM PST by Screaming_Gerbil (The light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train...)
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To: Captain Rhino

Great points.

...I am a strong advocate for the single officer response as being a valid tactical response in some active-shooter situations. The history of modern active-shooters in the U.S. shows us that the shooter(s) will be killed by the responders, will give up, or will kill themselves when the first hint of tactical pressure is placed upon them. Although not all “shooter” incidents have worked out this way, the vast majority have fallen into one of the three typical end results...

Since response to an active-shooter incident is a race, a race between the responder(s) stopping the shooter and the shooter racking up a greater and greater body count, I strongly advocate that officers should move to contact as quickly as possible, and by themselves if need be, to expedite stopping the shooter from killing more victims...

...Everyone who carries a gun for duty or protection should be aware of the physical and mental aspects of responding to critical incidents. It should suffice to say that such aspects of the human condition as fight or flight response, adrenalin stress, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc. should be well known to any serious student of preparation for combat or self defense.

This knowledge and training can be a very solid advantage to the first responder who is going after an active-shooter as the shooter will very likely not be educated and trained to deal with these aspects of armed conflict. In my opinion, the shooter will very likely never see the first responder coming...

...In less extreme examples, I have read concern that officer could be ambushed by the shooter. I have two problems with that train of thought; 1. It’s never happened (although I know that doesn’t mean it could some day) 2. Laying in wait for first responders is NOT active shooting.

If the first responder has no idea where the shooter is and will have to search to find them then a single officer response would not be appropriate. However I strongly feel that if a single officer can see the shooter, or can hear the shots close by, that they should immediately move to contact and engage the shooter. This has been successfully accomplished too many times for anyone to say that it is not a valid tactic.


28 posted on 11/14/2008 1:13:46 PM PST by Screaming_Gerbil (The light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train...)
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To: liberateUS

Bet the study cost a bundle too.


29 posted on 11/14/2008 1:16:03 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

Yes, talking constantly and loudly about about who you are, why you have a gun, and what you are trying to do would give the arriving officer some information they would otherwise have to infer from what he or she was seeing. Of course, obeying their directions would reinforce the notion you are one of the “good guys.” (And I don’t think it would be that much of a gamble to trust that the voice behind you is a police officer - assuming they properly identify themselves - because an active shooter in that position would, well, just shoot you.)

They are probably still going to treat you with suspicion and secure your weapon but maybe you can avoid having them just shoot you out of hand the moment they come upon you.


30 posted on 11/14/2008 1:33:14 PM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: hoosierham

Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, DUH!


31 posted on 11/14/2008 5:41:45 PM PST by RipSawyer (Great Grandpa was a Confederate soldier from the cradle of secession.)
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To: TYVets

They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It took a statistical study to figure out that these people
NEVER attack a gathering of deer hunters who are sighting in their hunting rifles. A police firing range often has quite a few people available as targets, wonder why they never go there. How stupid can people get, is there no limit?


32 posted on 11/14/2008 5:47:35 PM PST by RipSawyer (Great Grandpa was a Confederate soldier from the cradle of secession.)
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To: hoosierham; KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle; TYVets; Chinstrap61a; R. Scott; Captain Rhino; TalBlack; ..

33 posted on 11/15/2008 4:53:28 AM PST by Issaquahking (Obama won the election, and America lost!)
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To: Issaquahking

Someone here at Free Republic uses this true statement as a tagline:

“Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.”

Sort of nicely sums up the whole rationale for citizen gun ownership, don’t you think?


34 posted on 11/15/2008 5:26:20 AM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: Captain Rhino

Exactly!


35 posted on 11/15/2008 5:29:48 AM PST by Issaquahking (Obama won the election, and America lost!)
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To: Issaquahking
Photobucket
36 posted on 11/15/2008 1:18:52 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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