Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Military atheists want new rules on prayer
Stars and Stripes ^ | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 | By Leo Shane III

Posted on 11/14/2008 2:37:10 PM PST by PeteePie

Coalition complains of religious discrimination in the services By Leo Shane III, Stars and Stripes Mideast edition, Wednesday, November 12, 2008

WASHINGTON — A coalition of atheists and agnostics wants the new White House to protect young military members from what they see as rampant religious discrimination in the services.

The Secular Coalition for America held a news conference Monday urging new rules against proselytizing and more training for chaplains on how to handle nonreligious troops.

"When they say ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’ it’s slanderous," said Wayne Adkins, a former Army first lieutenant who served in Iraq in 2004 and 2005. "To deny their existence is to deny that they serve."

(Excerpt) Read more at stripes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alreadyposted; antigod; atheism; atheist; evil; god; idiotalert; moralabsolutes; prayer; stuckonstupid; voluntaryprayer
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-116 next last
To: Gumlegs

I agree that that is a minority view, even among Christians... and I am not an atheist.

I think most Christians do not want to force their beliefs on others, but they do not want athiest’s beliefs to be forced on them, or their children.


51 posted on 11/14/2008 7:15:41 PM PST by OHelix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: 185JHP; 230FMJ; 50mm; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]

Agressive atheism is a grave threat to liberty. If atheists don't like prayer, they should just tolerate it, not attend if possible, or think about something else. Daydream or something. If they don't believe in God, which is the meaning of atheism, it shouldn't really bother them.

For instance, different religious believers may not share many beliefs with someone of another faith. Many people have attended religious services of other faiths - even if they don't share every belief. It's called respect and tolerance.

If atheists are so angry and aggressive that they can't tolerate any mention or practice of religious belief, then it's their responsibility to hang out only with other atheists, not force religious believers to bend to their will.

52 posted on 11/14/2008 9:05:52 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RC2; trumandogz
I have no problem with an atheist.....until they start trying to tear down others beliefs.

The Atheists I've meet have been perfectly reasonable people. It's the Anti-theists that are insufferable bastards.

53 posted on 11/14/2008 9:09:34 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie

Atheists....the perpetually offended.


54 posted on 11/14/2008 9:11:09 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie

Readers react to complaints from atheists

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2132435/posts?page=1

Cross linking.


55 posted on 11/14/2008 9:12:07 PM PST by Jet Jaguar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gumlegs; Jackson Brown
Unless they are forced to pray or stand there while a Chaplin is preaching TO THEM, or trying to convert them, then this is a ridiculously stupid issue.

Some right here at FR seem to think forcing religion on military personnel is not only a good idea, but their duty!

To be fair, some don't.

To be fair, implying that others besides yourself don't is disingenuous. All you did was post a link to your own comment. You could have at least been honest enough to admit that YOU don't.

56 posted on 11/14/2008 9:23:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: little jeremiah

One of the problems with the militant atheist types is that they equate overhearing something with being assaulted with it.

Being required to be respectful (as I presume the military does) of other’s beliefs is not the same as being required to believe other’s beliefs.

There are plenty of religions that I think are off track but if I were in a situation where they were praying, I would at least do them the courtesy of being respectful as they practice their religion as the Constitution permits them. I would not even take offense at them proselytizing me as I would understand that they were doing it out of genuine concern.

If someone thinks that what they believe is right, it comes with a sense of obligation to tell others that as well. If someone thinks that they have something that will benefit others and make their lives better, I would expect them to want to share it with me and would consider it an honor that they had enough concern about me to want to do that.

Those perpetually offended atheists seem to forget that it’s the Judeo-Christian belief system that they are trying to suppress that gave them the Constitution that gives them the right to NOT believe if they so choose.


57 posted on 11/14/2008 9:40:32 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie
I am throughly fed up and sick to death of the minority of Godless degenerate heathens that insist on demoralizing this great nation!

Freedom was never intended to be a trophy for depravity, perversion, immorality, et al.
If they want to live in a demoralized degenerate uber-liberal disease ridden, drug addled, crime ridden immoral permissive utopia then move to France, Sweden, Holland or some other reprobate nation that grants credence to such and those that practice/worship same...
Get the hell out of this country! We will never let you have your way. Get over it!!!!!!!

58 posted on 11/14/2008 10:31:38 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: stevem

.no


59 posted on 11/14/2008 10:33:08 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: aWolverine

Strange. I was just thinking that if they don’t want to pray, they could do the “Time Warp” to kill the time.


60 posted on 11/14/2008 10:37:07 PM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: trumandogz
*fighting for your freedom*
Then why are the trying to take it away? (in vain I might add)
61 posted on 11/14/2008 10:39:43 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: little jeremiah

You make perfect sense, little jeremiah. Unfortunately, those on the left who preach tolerance rarely seem to practice it. I respect atheists even if I disagree with them. I’m not rude to them or demand they be quiet when they express views I disagree with. I only ask the same from them.

When I was in the military, we often had chaplains come in and give prayer. Everyone was respectfully quiet even if they didn’t believe. That is the real meaning of tolerance—giving others the right to express their faith or lack thereof. Tolerance doesn’t mean we have to conform/limit our freedoms to conform to the demands of a radical minority.


62 posted on 11/14/2008 10:40:00 PM PST by CitizenUSA (Voted proudly for GOVERNOR Palin for VP (but not so sad that RINO McCain lost)!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: FlingWingFlyer

AMEN!


63 posted on 11/14/2008 10:44:59 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: DirtyHarryY2K
Then why are the trying to take it away?

No, these Brave Young Men are not trying to take away anyone's freedom but simply stating that they do want to be discriminated against nor required to recognize a God that they do not believe exists.

And, as I read the First Amendment it not only provides Freedom of Religion but also Freedom From Religion.

As for the Fine Brave Men fighting for our Freedom and Safety in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are all heros no matter what their Religion of lack thereof.

64 posted on 11/15/2008 2:21:24 AM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: tbpiper
You miss the point of my sarcasm... it is not that they do not believe in GOD but the fact that they want to supress GOD in every way and keep GOD from those that wish to join with HIM before battle etc. I do not want these people killed but chastised and minimized and I will be certain to include a /s in the future for people like you to understand things are not always literal.

LLS

65 posted on 11/15/2008 4:22:00 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: LuxMaker

Please see my response below as to my lack of a /s tag.

LLS


66 posted on 11/15/2008 4:23:12 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: SeminoleSoldier
See my post below about my lack of an /s tag... or you can just keep hating on... your choice.

LLS

67 posted on 11/15/2008 4:24:22 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (GOD, Country, Family... except when it comes to dims! I am an UMA-unity my a$$)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: little jeremiah
If atheists don't like prayer, they should just tolerate it, not attend if possible, or think about something else. Daydream or something. If they don't believe in God, which is the meaning of atheism, it shouldn't really bother them.

For instance, different religious believers may not share many beliefs with someone of another faith. Many people have attended religious services of other faiths - even if they don't share every belief. It's called respect and tolerance.

If atheists are so angry and aggressive that they can't tolerate any mention or practice of religious belief, then it's their responsibility to hang out only with other atheists, not force religious believers to bend to their will.

I can actually see both sides of the argument.

I remember having this one Catholic OIC beginning every staff meeting with prayer. That made everybody HIGHLY uncomfortable.

I remember running into a reserve chaplain (evangelical protestant) who very aggressively pushed his particular brand of Christianity on everybody at a deployed location. One time he asked me if I had a "church home." When I answered that I was Catholic, his response was definitely non-accepting of this. We'll leave it at that.

Both the two examples above were greatly in the minority. Most Christians in the military that I saw, regardless of denomination, were very respectful of others beliefs or lack thereof.

OTOH, militant atheists in the military were generally a major pain in the butt, looking down at anybody who was "idiotic" enough to have a sincerely-held religious belief, no matter what that belief system was. After all, they were "free thinkers" and "rational," while us theists were "delusional." Their objective, though unstated, was not to have the liberty to not believe, but to deny those of us who did believe that right. All in the name of "tolerance."

Now that they have one of their own in the White House, you can expect even MORE militancy from them. Be ready. They believe it is their time.

(And, if you believe that there will be an upcoming persecution, you will understand that they are right)

68 posted on 11/15/2008 6:28:47 AM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: CitizenUSA

To the left, “tolerance” has developed a new meaning. It means “Dominance of us over you!!”. Those 65 plans of communist domination or whatever they’re called are looking more and more like a done deal.

It’s the left’s way of forcing normal people who believe in God and morality into the closet. Removing all freedoms from us. It’s dangerous and not a light or little thing.

I wouldn’t mind going to any kind of religious service (I have in the past) (and I’ll leave Islam out of this) even if I don’t practice those methods of worship, and don’t share some of the tenets of belief. My view is - at least they’re worshipping God in some manner, and they have free will, too. And how about respecting others as a general principle?

I have atheist relatives and acquaintenaces and I don’t hate them or try to shove anything in their faces.

And of course - pressurized proselytization should never happen especially in the military where there is a more or less captive audience. But that can be taken care of. If I were in the military, especially in a war zone, I’d be happy to hear prayers from anyone, regardless of sect or religion (leaving Islam aside again, sorry I’m sort of negative about them now).


69 posted on 11/15/2008 8:13:57 AM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: trumandogz
*these brave young men*
Are modern day John Kerry type liberal (probably queer) ACLU members that deserve to be treated with contempt.

*Freedom from religion*

You read the constitution like the USSC (stuffed with liberal activists from the FDR administration) do...

Perhaps you should read up and study some history....

Start with George Washington, John Adams, or perhaps Jefferson.

Our Constitution strictly forbids the law (or the liberal judiciary-atheists-queers et al) from prohibiting the free exercise of religion. (notice the period!) "Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people, and is wholly inadequate to the government of any other- John Adams

70 posted on 11/15/2008 8:43:31 AM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Cvengr
To be fair, implying that others besides yourself don't is disingenuous. All you did was post a link to your own comment. You could have at least been honest enough to admit that YOU don't.

I linked to a post by Cvengr first, and then to my reply. Here's the link to Cvengr's post again, since you seem to have missed it the first time.

You complained that all I did was link to my own post. That's a blatant lie. Even if I had, my post quoted Cvengr's post in its entirety.

Are you not paying attention, or are you so anxious to smear other posters that you don't care how misleading you have to be?

71 posted on 11/15/2008 10:17:31 AM PST by Gumlegs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

The Judeo Christian Tradition is from where all morality and true justice derive. Good soldiering requires adherence to a strict moral code, else our military would have long ago devolved into anarchy and the barbaric practice reminiscent of other pagan or amoral cultures. The American military would not hold that reputation so well earned over two centuries, were not the Judeo-Christian Traditions central in its doctrine of moral conduct.

All of Western civilization owes its birth, its liberty, its jurisprudence, and its prosperity and longevity to the Catholic Church, and the Christian moral code, without which no semblance of the above attributes would have risen from the rubble that was the old Roman Empire. That is not my opinion, but historical fact.

I have no intention of arguing Catholic apologetics with you, not wanting to cast pearls before swine. I long ago discovered atheists comprise the most closed of all intellects, while the irony is they claim to have enlightened minds.

Moreover, the typical arguments the atheist conjures involve circular logic and the disproval of negatives.

I would expect that the “fringe” remark is more in line with your “beliefs.” I doubt there are many soldiers following your “creed” of atheism, just as I seriously doubt your view is supported by but a few here on FR. Shall we put your assertion it to a vote?


72 posted on 11/15/2008 10:18:26 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Jackson Brown
And just so you understand, here's Jackson Brown's reply to my post to him.

There were two other replies. It appears the only one with a reading difficulty (or compulsion to lie about what other posters have posted), is you.

73 posted on 11/15/2008 10:22:52 AM PST by Gumlegs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: TCH
All of Western civilization owes its birth, its liberty, its jurisprudence, and its prosperity and longevity to the Catholic Church, and the Christian moral code, without which no semblance of the above attributes would have risen from the rubble that was the old Roman Empire. That is not my opinion, but historical fact.

That era was called the Dark Ages. The light of science in those years was found in the Arab countries.

With the Renaissance and The Enlightenment the breakthroughs came when Europeans escaped the dominance of the churches and replaced unquestioned religious dogma with free and unfettered investigation.

That is not my opinion, but historical fact.

74 posted on 11/15/2008 10:48:15 AM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

B.S.:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) Polish astronomer. First mathematical system of planets going around Sun. Attended European universities. 1497 Became Canon in Catholic Church. 1533 Presented his system at Vatican. Pope Clement VII approved, urged Copernicus to publish; also by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus never under threat of persecution. Referred to God in his works. Did not see his system in conflict with Bible.

Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627) Philosopher. Established Scientific Method for discovery of truth, service to country and Church. Rejected atheism: “…a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.”

Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) Mathematician, Astronomer. Early work on light. Established laws of planetary motion. Came close to Newtonian concept of universal gravity. His idea of force changed astronomy radically. Extremely sincere, pious Lutheran. Works contain writings how space, heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Suffered no persecution for open avowal of sun-centered system. Allowed to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) 1633 Published controversial work on solar system. No proofs of sun-centered system. Telescope discoveries did not indicate moving earth. His proof based on tides was invalid. He ignored Kepler’s elliptical orbits. Put Pope’s argument in mouth of simpletons, offending his old friend. Forbidden to teach sun-centered system. Did useful theoretical work on dynamics. Expressly said the Bible cannot err. Saw his system as alternate interpretation of biblical texts.

Rene Descartes (1596-1650) Mathematician, Scientist, Father of modern philosophy. Roman Catholic. Retained deep faith. At 24, sought to gather knowledge in one system of thought. Asked what could be known if all else doubted. Proposed “I think therefore I am.” Sought to establish God’s existence. Only if God exists and would not want us deceived by experiences, can we trust senses and logical thought processes. Wanted his God centered philosophy adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching.

(Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon regarded as key figures in development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.)

Isaac Newton (1642-1727) Genius, innovator in Optics, Mechanics, Mathematics, Chemistry. Saw mathematics, numbers central in all. Devoutly religious. Considerable work in biblical numerology. Aspects of beliefs not orthodox, but thought theology very important. In his system, God essential to nature, absoluteness of space. From Principia: “The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being.”

Robert Boyle (1791-1867) Chemist. Founder, key member of Royal Society. Encyclopedia Britannica: “His will endowed lectures ‘for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels.’ Devout Protestant. Promoted Christian religion, giving money to translate, publish New Testament into Irish, Turkish. In 1690, developed theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, to show study of nature a central religious duty.” Wrote against atheists. More devoutly Christian than average in his era.

Michael Faraday (1791-1867) Son of blacksmith. One of greatest scientists of the 19th century. Work on electricity, magnetism revolutionized physics, and led to modern lifestyles, (computers, telephone lines, etc). Devout Christian member of Sandemanians, which significantly influenced and strongly affected way in which he approached, interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected idea of state churches, tried to go back to New Testament Christianity.

Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) Abbot. Laid mathematical foundation of genetics in 1856 (3 years before Darwin published Origin of Species). Unknown until 1900, when botanists, rediscovered him. 1860’s notable for X-Clubs, dedicated to lessen religious influence, propagate image of conflict between science and religion. Darwin’s cousin, geneticist Francis Galton, a proponent of eugenics, wrote how the “priestly mind” not conducive to science, while a monk made breakthroughs in genetics.

William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907) Physicist. More religious than average for era. Physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) also of deep Christian faith in era when many nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. Encyclopedia Britannica: “Maxwell regarded as scientist of 19th century who had greatest influence on 20th century physics; ranked with Newton, Einstein for fundamental contributions.” Creationist, estimated Earth 20-100M yrs, upper limit 500M.

Max Planck (1858-1947) Physicist. Quantum Theory. Revolutionized understanding of atomic, sub-atomic worlds. 1937 lecture “Religion and Naturwissenschaft” expressed view God everywhere present: “holiness of the unintelligible Godhead conveyed by holiness of symbols.” Atheists attach too much importance to symbols. Believed in almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God; that Science, religion wage “tireless battle against skepticism, dogmatism… against unbelief, superstition” with goal “toward God!”

Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Physicist. Britannica: “Firmly denying atheism, expressed belief in ‘Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists.’ Said to physicist “I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” On Uncertainty Principle “God does not play dice.” On religion “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”


75 posted on 11/15/2008 11:22:27 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

P.S. ... I have just cited for you 500 years of scientific achievement, advanced by renowned men of science whom also held a devout Christian faith. These were and remain giants of the scientific world, who were leaders in their fields of study, and whose contributions shaped our ideas on the universe, the solar system, and the planet we inhabit.

So, I stand on the shoulders of giants, men who knew this universe was created by an omnipresent, omni prescient being... the being we call God.

You, sir, stand on the shifting sands of indifference and relativism.


76 posted on 11/15/2008 11:39:19 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman
Still grinding that secular atheist political axe I see...
You ever read the communist manifesto? (rhetorical)
77 posted on 11/15/2008 11:58:35 AM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: DirtyHarryY2K
Still grinding that secular atheist political axe I see...
You ever read the communist manifesto? (rhetorical)

So you are suggesting that because I don't agree with your narrow fundamentalist view of religion I am a communist?

Don't be more of an ass than you have to be.

I was active and voting as a conservative when the theocons were still Democrats.

78 posted on 11/15/2008 12:03:24 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: TCH
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) 1633 Published controversial work on solar system. No proofs of sun-centered system. Telescope discoveries did not indicate moving earth. His proof based on tides was invalid. He ignored Kepler’s elliptical orbits. Put Pope’s argument in mouth of simpletons, offending his old friend. Forbidden to teach sun-centered system. Did useful theoretical work on dynamics. Expressly said the Bible cannot err. Saw his system as alternate interpretation of biblical texts.

In 1616 the Inquisition warned Galileo not to hold or defend the hypothesis asserted in Copernicus' On the Revolutions, though it has been debated whether he was admonished not to 'teach in any way' the heliocentric theory.

Despite his continued insistence that his work in the area was purely theoretical, despite his strict following of the church protocol for publication of works (which required prior examination by church censors and subsequent permission), and despite his close friendship with Maffeo Barberini who later became Pope Urban VIII and presided throughout the ordeal, Galileo was forced to recant his views repeatedly and was put under life-long house arrest (1633-1642).

The Inquisition had rejected earlier pleas by Galilei to postpone or relocate the trial because of his ill health. At a meeting presided by Pope Urban VIII, the Inquisition decided to notify Galilei that he either had to come to Rome or that he would be arrested and brought there in chains. Galileo arrived in Rome for his trial before the Inquisition on February 13, 1633. After two weeks in quarantine, Galilei was detained at the comfortable residence of the Tuscan ambassador, as a favor to the influential Grand Duke Ferdinand II de' Medici. In April 1633 he was formally interrogated by the Inquisition. He was not imprisoned in a dungeon cell, but detained in a room in the offices of the Inquisition for 22 days.

On June 22, 1633, the Roman Inquisition started its trial against Galilei, who was then 69 years old and pleaded for mercy, pointing to his "regrettable state of physical unwellness". Threatening him with torture, imprisonment and death on the stake, the show trial forced Galileo to "abjure, curse and detest" his work and to promise to denounce others who held his prior viewpoint. Galileo did everything the church requested him to do. (The idea that he muttered Eppur si muove! - "But it moves anyway!" - is a legend.) That the threat of torture and death Galileo was facing was a real one had been proven by the church in the earlier trial against Giordano Bruno, who was burned at the stake in 1600 for holding a naturalistic view of the Universe [emphasis added].

Galileo was sentenced to prison but because of his advanced age was allowed to serve his term under house arrest at his villas in Arcetri and Florence. Because of a painful hernia, he requested permission to consult physicians in Florence, which was denied by Rome, warning that further such requests would lead to imprisonment. Under arrest, he was forced to recite penitentiary psalms regularly, and his social contacts were highly restricted, but he was allowed to continue his less controversial research and publish under strict rules of censorship. He went totally blind in 1638 (his petition to the Inquisition to be released was rejected, but he was allowed to move to his house in Florence where he was closer to his physicians). His Dialogue was put on the Index librorum prohibitorum, a black list of banned books, until 1822. Source

That sure sounds like the church supported science, eh? What a joke!

Since The Enlightenment we don't have to kowtow to the shamans and what they think of science, and I wish you fundamentalists would learn that.

79 posted on 11/15/2008 12:20:18 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman; TCH

Coyote you are a shaman for the ape-to-man fantasy religion


80 posted on 11/15/2008 12:33:17 PM PST by valkyry1 (McCain/Palin 2008)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

I stated Galileo’s work was controversial, and for reasons more to do with his methods, lack of theoretical proofs, and his personality. Your argument is grasping at straws.

More revealing is a lack of rebuttal to the other men of science. How will you attempt to discredit them? I stand in awe of your vast intellectual prowess... not.

(Sound of deafening silence)


81 posted on 11/15/2008 12:35:04 PM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman
I am suggesting your political bent aligns perfectly with theirs on this subject.

When will we see you on the financial threads pushing “conservatism” instead of throwing tantrums like Madd ellen Murry O’hare or Michael Newdow on the social threads fighting tooth and nail to rid society of religion? (rhetorical)

82 posted on 11/15/2008 12:52:09 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: DirtyHarryY2K
I am suggesting your political bent aligns perfectly with theirs on this subject.

When will we see you on the financial threads pushing “conservatism” instead of throwing tantrums like Madd ellen Murry O’hare or Michael Newdow on the social threads fighting tooth and nail to rid society of religion? (rhetorical)

You go ahead and vote theocon. I'll continue to vote conservative.

83 posted on 11/15/2008 1:16:23 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

Your so-called rebuttal against the Catholic Church, Inquisition, et al, did nothing to discredit the central point that Galileo Galilei believed in God. His FAITH is the gestalt of this argument. You think your intellect superior over we dwarfs holding to religious “superstition”... and yet, I show you men of renowned intellect AND ACCOMPLISHMENT, men who demonstrated their belief in the Divine, their unshakable faith in the active hand of the omni-present, omni-prescient, omni-potent Godhead.

Sir, you cannot obliterate belief, faith, or conviction from men of good will. Only against those minds not yet formed, or against those whom have voluntarily surrendered their free will to evil inclinations, are you so able to attack and pervert to darkness. This explains why individuals of your ilk relentlessly target the most innocent… our children.

Sir, you hate God, and you despise men, whom He created in His image. While yet pretending to enlighten men’s minds, you seduce them into indifference and moral relativism.

Sir, you in fact desire to replace God’s salving grace with your own brand, which is neither saving nor grace. Your ilk has condemned men to slavery every since the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. Your words are no different than those clever lies of the wily serpent the devil; he who was Lucifer the Angle of Light, but is now Satan the prince of darkness. He, thinking his intellect superior to God’s, and believing in his own existence outside of God, rebelled against God his creator for reason of pride in created attributes: beauty and intelligence… the very gift of superior intellect given him by God, he abused; the very same gift present day atheists claim for themselves apart from God. Those who abuse the gift of intellect are reserved to the deepest depths of Hell, because that gift is close to God. Therefore the anticedent serves as a just punishment: They will be condemned to spend eternity closest to their chosen leader. Take heed, friend. You risk eternity.


84 posted on 11/15/2008 1:17:06 PM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman
As someone who seems to like collecting myths, I think that it's time you pierced one that you seem to hold near & dear. European history isn't as simplistic as you seem to believe it is. Much of the “dark” of the Dark Age had to do with Pagan & Arian tribalism.

The “Golden Age” of Islam had a lot to do with conquest & claiming advancements of all cultures they had conquered as Arabian.

85 posted on 11/15/2008 1:32:46 PM PST by GoLightly (Hey, Obama. When's my check going to get here?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: TCH
Nice rant!

You can preach all you want, but I still prefer the results of The Enlightenment to those of the Inquisition.

86 posted on 11/15/2008 1:35:13 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Coyoteman

This has nothing to do with votes.. but rather your blind unrelenting obsession with grinding your atheist secular political axe on these threads.


87 posted on 11/15/2008 2:08:03 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: aWolverine
Ping to bitter clinger w/ sharp logical humorous wit.
You may be interested in this debate.
88 posted on 11/15/2008 2:28:25 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: DirtyHarryY2K

Apparently you can be an out & out atheist secular liberal as long as you mention science regularly.


89 posted on 11/15/2008 4:50:22 PM PST by valkyry1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie

Funny how atheists get so worked up over something they don’t even believe in.


90 posted on 11/15/2008 4:51:22 PM PST by dfwgator (I hate Illinois Marxists)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TCH
All of Western civilization owes its birth, its liberty, its jurisprudence, and its prosperity and longevity to the Catholic Church, and the Christian moral code, without which no semblance of the above attributes would have risen from the rubble that was the old Roman Empire.

Wasn't Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire from 325 AD on? James Madison on the legal establishment of Christianity:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 20 June 1785

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html

91 posted on 11/15/2008 7:49:26 PM PST by Ken H
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: Ken H
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 20 June 1785

That will get James Madison thrown out of FR for sure.
92 posted on 11/15/2008 8:32:00 PM PST by Gumlegs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie

I don’t believe in atheists. So why should I be forced to listen to him.


93 posted on 11/15/2008 8:33:44 PM PST by freemike
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ken H
University Chicago..
Is that you Bill(ayers)?
94 posted on 11/15/2008 9:23:42 PM PST by DirtyHarryY2K (Don't blame Texas.. No more RINO's or Mavericks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: DirtyHarryY2K
I'm sure you're a very intelligent person. So why post like an idiot?
95 posted on 11/16/2008 12:08:31 AM PST by Ken H
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

There is more in this thread than I have time to attend to but...

I have 4 nephews who have been deployed 7 times to Iraq. One who is now a contractor in Afghanistan. The last just came home from Iraq, and I hope that to be the last I have to be concerned for.

I brought that up to say I have been told by this last young man that there is an unwritten code amongst them that includes no discussion regarding family, religion or politics. He stated they have to trust each other to watch each others backs. And all there are soldiers first. So this holding back of personal views allows unity.

On another point brought up..

I know some atheists who are obnoxious in the same way recovered smokers are. I assume it to be having to fight to claim the new ground and difficulty in letting it go once arrived.

And being one of those that believe ‘once saved always saved’ I have mentioned they were ‘pissing in wind’ since they were already a child of God’s. Usually cause I was annoyed and decided to play back what they were dishing.

On last point I have time for...

I believe we will face times not seen by most here, and I speak to those on US soil specially in that, and we need to familiarize ourselves with what we cannot do on our own. And what can I say...I believe it is God not me that will make it bearable.

...for now.


96 posted on 11/16/2008 5:39:00 AM PST by Kathy Ann
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: PeteePie
"When they say ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’ it’s slanderous," said Wayne Adkins, a former Army first lieutenant who served in Iraq in 2004 and 2005,,,

With all my time in the Army, I had never met one. So, with that said, I will stop mentioning this saying, don't want to slander anyone.

What is odd is the "former O-2." Never met a "former 1st Louie," before. Must have been wounded and discharged.

Thank you for your service Mr. Adkins.

5.56mm

97 posted on 11/16/2008 6:05:28 AM PST by M Kehoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: metmom
One of the problems with the militant atheist types is that they equate overhearing something with being assaulted with it.

This is an outstanding point. There is no right of freedom from being exposed to another's thoughts, explicit or implicit, that is philosophically valid. There are issues of aesthetics, ethics, and empathy which come in to play when one decides whether or not to share one's thoughts with another, but there is no moral or philosophical ground to stand on in making the decision to shut someone else up. You may choose your reaction to another, you may NOT choose whether another expresses their honest thoughts. I am not going to bring law into the discussion, because my perception of the is that it is inconsistent and capricious.

In summary, if you are an athiest and are offended by someone else expressing their thoughts regarding theology, excuse yourself and go have a cigarette. Do NOT file a lawsuit.
98 posted on 11/16/2008 7:24:58 AM PST by aWolverine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: little jeremiah
I’d be happy to hear prayers from anyone, regardless of sect or religion (leaving Islam aside again, sorry I’m sort of negative about them now).

Don't feel bad. Islam is not a religion. It is a political system that uses some theological terms and concepts in order to wield psychological power. It doesn't even begin to be internally consistent enough to be a religion, let alone a metaphysical system for explaining observable phenomena.
99 posted on 11/16/2008 7:52:48 AM PST by aWolverine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: aWolverine

I have or used to have two translations of the Koran and tried to read some - not for inspiration, but information - and it was so extremely boring I could not get very far, maybe 100 plus pages.

But the far worse thing is their history - bloody aggression and forcible conversion from the very beginning to this morning. Basically all Muslims are descendents of those forced into Islam. All descendents other than the handful who voluntarily listened to and followed Mohammed were previously Christians, Jews, Hindus, animists, Buddhists, Jains and probably a few more subsets. And since once born a Muslim by Sharia law a person cannot leave, it’s more like a prison than anything else.

Of course, there are recent converts in prisons.


100 posted on 11/16/2008 8:58:59 AM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-116 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson