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Looking Beyond the M4 Carbine
Sigforum ^ | November 15, 2008 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:29:49 AM PST by re_tail20

As the Army scales back on its M4 carbine buys, the service’s top official said Thursday it’s time to look for the next carbine soldiers will carry into battle.

Secretary of the Army Pete Geren’s comments set the tone for the small arms industry day that drew 19 companies from across the country to Washington, D.C., with the hope of replacing the service’s M4 carbine.

“Today is an important step in an effort to ensure that our soldiers always have the best,” Geren said. “Not just the best today, but the best tomorrow.”

The Army-sponsored event is the result of a “request for information” the service put out in August to assess what the U.S. small arms industry is capable of producing.

The Army purchased of the remaining balance of 473,000 M4s Wednesday, which will be delivered over the next two years, Geren said.

“That completes the Army acquisition objective for the M4,” Geren said, adding that the service would continue to buy the M4 in reduced quantities to maintain adequate replacements as needed.

The M4 is the Army’s primary individual weapon. For more than a year, it has been the subject of increased scrutiny by lawmakers on Capitol Hill concerned about whether soldiers have the best available weapon.

Geren said the goal of the event is to help the Army determine what is “achievable in terms of carbine technology.”

This is the first step toward a carbine competition the Army intends to open next year after Colt Defense LLC, the company that makes the M4, turns over the weapon’s technical data rights in June 2009. When that happens, the Army will have the opportunity to improve the M4 or buy a new carbine.

Geren has directed the Army to update its requirement for a carbine to reflect the current and future needs of soldiers.

The new requirement is scheduled to be completed by the end of the calendar year and approved by next summer, said Col. Doug Tamilio, Program Executive Office Soldier’s project manager for Soldier Weapons.

Provided that the new carbine requirement is approved and funding is available, the Army will issue a formal request for proposal for a new carbine to gun makers late next year, Tamilio said.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; m4; m4carbine; usarmy
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1 posted on 11/15/2008 8:29:50 AM PST by re_tail20
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To: re_tail20

go back to the m-14


2 posted on 11/15/2008 8:30:34 AM PST by rightwinggoth
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To: re_tail20

reconfigure the M4 to fire a 6.5mm grendal.


3 posted on 11/15/2008 8:30:45 AM PST by Perdogg (Gov Sarah Palin - President 2012)
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To: re_tail20

Look here.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=975


4 posted on 11/15/2008 8:37:30 AM PST by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: rightwinggoth
go back to the m-14

Last night R. Lee Ermy (of "Full Metal Jacket") hosted a passable
documentary of the history of the rifle on History Channel
titled "Lock And Load".

He said he started out with an M-14 in Vietnam, then was issued
an M-16.
He kept the M-16, but just continued to use the M-14.
5 posted on 11/15/2008 8:37:45 AM PST by VOA
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To: Perdogg
reconfigure the M4 to fire a 6.5mm grendal.

That's probably what will happen. We'll either get a new platform (more costly) or a modified M4 with a new caliber.

I say they need to look at the new 7.62 x 28 WSSSM (Win Super Super Short Mag) /s

6 posted on 11/15/2008 8:38:18 AM PST by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: rightwinggoth

>>go back to the m-14

I’m for the original - M1 Garand. That puppy would fire in all kinds of weather, take more abuse than a rented mule and was, according to General Patton, the best rifle ever made.

Some of my fellow Marines told me about smearing axle grease on the M1 to keep it firing in the Frozen Chosin.


7 posted on 11/15/2008 8:42:09 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners.)
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To: re_tail20

They should just change the gas system. Replace the gas tube with a gas piston. That will keep it a lot cleaner and more reliable.


8 posted on 11/15/2008 8:46:34 AM PST by Roklok
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To: Perdogg
reconfigure the M4 to fire a 6.5mm grendal.

And while you're replacing M4 Uppers, replace the direct gas impingment system with a gas piston system ala HK416 and others.

The M14 is not practical for today's mounted urban environment, which is why the M4 has displaced the M16. Can you imagine egressing an MRAP with a 46.5 inch long M14?

The M14 is appropriate for Designated Marksman and SOCOM use as mission dictates, but not as a universal infantry weapon.

9 posted on 11/15/2008 8:46:59 AM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: re_tail20

Looks like a small chance it might actually finally happen

I think that if the M-4 and the M-16 had undergone proper trials that they both would have been weeded out.

It’s their operating system. Propellant gas not only builds up in the receiver, making it more likely to jam, but gradually wears away the existent parts in the receiver. Heckler and Koch confirmed this in their own trials on the M4 when coming up with their HK 416, and this is something neither the Army’s Ordnance Corp did in the 1960’s or PEO Soldier has done

The operating system for every main assault rifle should be based around a gas piston. If you want to have rifles with direct impingement systems as well, they should be relegated to supporting roles.


10 posted on 11/15/2008 8:48:22 AM PST by re_tail20
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To: Yo-Yo

I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation.


11 posted on 11/15/2008 8:48:34 AM PST by Perdogg (Gov Sarah Palin - President 2012)
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To: NTHockey
Somewhat heavier, but make mine the WWI variant of the BAR; full-auto and belt-fed.
12 posted on 11/15/2008 8:49:12 AM PST by jamaksin
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To: rightwinggoth

I COULDN’T AGREE MORE!!!


13 posted on 11/15/2008 8:50:25 AM PST by GodfearingTexan
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To: Perdogg

I see no problem with that.


14 posted on 11/15/2008 8:51:00 AM PST by GodfearingTexan
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To: rightwinggoth

Have you ever toted an M-14 for any distance/length of time?

I have extensive experience with the 14, onboard ships and boats. I think it is a very good rifle, but I would hate to have to carry that beast in the boonies. In addition to that, as a gunsmith/armorer the M16/4 platform is much easier to service in the field and at the repair level.


15 posted on 11/15/2008 8:51:26 AM PST by ExpatGator (Extending logic since 1961.)
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To: VOA
I always enjoy watching R. Lee Ermy. He does make a lot of mistakes about guns. For instance he calls the M1903 Springfield a "single shot".

Of course I always know what he means, in this case that it must be manually recycled for each shot. Still someone should correct his misinformation before it gets on the show.

Also he comments about how lucky we were to select the M14 over the FAL. Sure, that is opinion but I think any really knowledgeable shooter would argue that the FAL was every bit the equal, and IMO better than the M14.

16 posted on 11/15/2008 8:51:59 AM PST by yarddog
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To: GodfearingTexan

I don’t want to kill someone due to friendly fire.


17 posted on 11/15/2008 8:53:15 AM PST by Perdogg (Gov Sarah Palin - President 2012)
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To: re_tail20
What about a leap in technology? Case less ammunition?
Any word on something completely new?
18 posted on 11/15/2008 8:53:47 AM PST by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: re_tail20

By the time 0bama is through gutting the military they’ll probably be throwing rocks at the enemy.


19 posted on 11/15/2008 8:54:06 AM PST by Malone LaVeigh
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To: re_tail20

In the upcoming Obama regime, the only equipment that the military will be need are many boxes of white flags.....


20 posted on 11/15/2008 8:55:01 AM PST by RonboTex (Go ahead... Make my day.)
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To: Perdogg

Neither do I, but if you think about it, it seems like a shabby reason to carry a light weapon into a CQB. Best just not to shoot the friendlies! After all, most people mistakenly shot by 5.56 are not doing too well either.


21 posted on 11/15/2008 8:55:40 AM PST by GodfearingTexan
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To: re_tail20

The new administration will probably replace these with BB guns.


22 posted on 11/15/2008 8:56:28 AM PST by 3catsanadog (I plan to give the new President the same respect and dignity the other side gave Bush.)
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To: Perdogg

I’ve heard people who’ve tried to stop bad guys with 5.56mm rounds at 25 meters have been known to change their minds about carrying the heavier weapons and mags.


23 posted on 11/15/2008 8:56:56 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (Liberty has few friends, many enemies, and no adequate substitute.)
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To: NTHockey

Ever tote an M-1 around all day in 120 degree heat?


24 posted on 11/15/2008 8:57:38 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: jamaksin

That is called a SAW.


25 posted on 11/15/2008 8:58:12 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: re_tail20

Um...can I have one of the old M-4’s when they junk ‘em?


26 posted on 11/15/2008 8:58:53 AM PST by oldsalt (There's no such thing as a free lunch.)
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To: Roklok
They should just change the gas system. Replace the gas tube with a gas piston. That will keep it a lot cleaner and more reliable.

If they did that they'd end up with Daewoo K2. About 95% of the lower receiver group is interchangeable with the M-16/AR-15 and uses a AK-47 style gas system and an FN-FAL style folding buttstock. In all, a very reliable and robust weapon.


27 posted on 11/15/2008 8:59:38 AM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power.)
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To: re_tail20

Many in the Army have tried to find a better rifle only to have the Army brass stomp on such efforts. Now we have this idiot come forward as though it is his big idea. He’s probably one of those that prevented such efforts.


28 posted on 11/15/2008 9:01:21 AM PST by CodeToad
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To: RonboTex

“In the upcoming Obama regime, the only equipment that the military will be need are many boxes of white flags.....”

Not true! They’ll be conducting operations all over the U.S.


29 posted on 11/15/2008 9:01:55 AM PST by dljordan
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To: re_tail20

Something else no one ever wants to talk about is the 5.56 ammo itself. When Armalite (Gene Stoner) designed the system, the powder used was IMR type. The Army went to Ball powder AND THEN THE PROBLEMS STARTED. It’s my impression they are still using ball powder today.
I picked up a POF-USA 415 (gas piston system) a couple of years ago. I can be a bit more abusive to it than my Colt H-Bar. You really notice the difference when you pull the bolt to clean it. Since it’s not eating and s*itting in the same place, there is a whole lot less carbon and crap to get out.


30 posted on 11/15/2008 9:02:01 AM PST by TEXASPROUD
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To: jamaksin
Somewhat heavier, but make mine the WWI variant of the BAR; full-auto and belt-fed.

Full auto, yes. Belt fed? No. The M1918 BAR is fed with a 20 round box magazine, and at one time had a 40 round box magazine.

The BAR has never been belt fed. I think you're confusing it with the Browning Model 1917 .30 cal machine gun, which was belt fed.

31 posted on 11/15/2008 9:02:39 AM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: re_tail20

Something else no one ever wants to talk about is the 5.56 ammo itself. When Armalite (Gene Stoner) designed the system, the powder used was IMR type. The Army went to Ball powder AND THEN THE PROBLEMS STARTED. It’s my impression they are still using ball powder today.
I picked up a POF-USA 415 (gas piston system) a couple of years ago. I can be a bit more abusive to it than my Colt H-Bar. You really notice the difference when you pull the bolt to clean it. Since it’s not eating and s*itting in the same place, there is a whole lot less carbon and crap to get out.


32 posted on 11/15/2008 9:03:06 AM PST by TEXASPROUD
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To: Yo-Yo
The smallest technical and logistical delta for the largest payback in terms of reliability is definitely the HK416. I am also quite certain that I want one with the burning passion of an exploding star...

33 posted on 11/15/2008 9:03:22 AM PST by aWolverine
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To: re_tail20

Put .308 uppers on them and be done with it.

Saves money and addresses the need for more knockdown power.


34 posted on 11/15/2008 9:03:45 AM PST by 2111USMC
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To: GodfearingTexan

In R. Lee Ermey’s special last night, he offered this defense for the 5.56 mm

When you shoot someone with a 7.62 mm, you kill him and just take one guy out.

When you shoot someone with a 5.56 mm, you wound him and take three guys out, the guy wounded, the medic treating him, and the guy who has to carry him off the battlefield

Sort of an academic exercise, and reminiscent of the horrible “body count” approach that was woefully used in Vietnam (thanks to McNamara and his Whiz Kids), but somewhat interesting

I think a mid size cartridge like the 6.5 or 6.8 would be good for the new carbine


35 posted on 11/15/2008 9:03:49 AM PST by re_tail20
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To: andy58-in-nh
Lang ago in the $hithole of the earth I put a three round burst into a very small man at about 75 feet from an M-16. He kept coming. Switched hands drew my 45 auto that was loaded with my Uncle's (no not that uncle) very hot home loads. Put two into the heart and the guy dropped almost at my feet. Upon examination we found the 5.56mm had gone into the chest just below the sternum and out the back missing the ribs. The 45 tore him up. Now I have shot about every varmint in North America with a 5.56 (223)hunting bullet and it tears them up. The lesson is that FMJ in 5.56 is questionable in hollow point or core-lok it is devastating. This fact should not be lost on the guys who believe a civil war is coming.
36 posted on 11/15/2008 9:04:53 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: 2111USMC
Put .308 uppers on them and be done with it.

Can't. The 7.62x51 cartridge is too long to fit through the M4 lower. The 6.5 Grendel (and other cartridges) can use the same size magazine as the 5.56, so the lower can be re-used.

I do believe, however, that the 7.62x39 can be used through the M4 lower, but I'm not positive.

37 posted on 11/15/2008 9:07:57 AM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: aWolverine
Jeez.... ya think ya got enough Picatinney rails on that thing?
38 posted on 11/15/2008 9:09:11 AM PST by 2111USMC
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To: 2111USMC
Jeez.... ya think ya got enough Picatinney rails on that thing?

Well, let's see:
1) Scope
2) Flashlight
3) Laser
4) Forgrip
5) Bayonet mount
6) Bipod
7) Pencil holder
8) Mouse pad
9) Clothing hangar
10) Monopod to help hold the thing up when you've applied the previous 9 additions.
39 posted on 11/15/2008 9:14:12 AM PST by aWolverine
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To: oldsalt
I recall that Comrade Klinton gave most of our M-14s to the Balkans.
40 posted on 11/15/2008 9:15:32 AM PST by mcshot (Bitterly Loving God, Family, Life, Guns and our Constitution as written!)
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To: aWolverine

LOL!


41 posted on 11/15/2008 9:15:54 AM PST by 2111USMC
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To: mad_as_he$$

I have had exactly the same experience. I have expended many many thousands of rounds of 5.56 into various targets and was never impressed by it. Wasn’t too impressed by the M16 at all even though I currently own an M4 that has never been fired.


42 posted on 11/15/2008 9:21:50 AM PST by white17x
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To: rightwinggoth

I said this very thing on FR about four years ago and took a few flames for my troubles. My point was that some of the after action reports I’d seen indiacted the troops wanted a heavier round on hte order of 7.62. Low and behold, the Army started putting scoped M-14s in each squad in the hands of a ‘designated marksman’.

Semper Fi,


43 posted on 11/15/2008 9:22:51 AM PST by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar (The "P" in Democrat stands for patriotism.)
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To: mad_as_he$$
Switched hands drew my 45 auto that was loaded with my Uncle's (no not that uncle) very hot home loads. Put two into the heart and the guy dropped almost at my feet. Upon examination we found the 5.56mm had gone into the chest just below the sternum and out the back missing the ribs. The 45 tore him up.

Two in the heart from the 45--what would have happened if you had put 2 in the heart from the M16 at 75 feet
44 posted on 11/15/2008 9:25:02 AM PST by uncbob
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To: 3catsanadog

Only 1 BB at a time, so they’re not “assault weapons”.


45 posted on 11/15/2008 9:33:24 AM PST by G Larry (Barack’s character has been molded by extremists)
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To: re_tail20
The new FN SCAR, in its various configurations, should replace all versions of the M-16, which was only adopted because Robert McNamara had friends at Colt. In terms of stopping power and reliability it is clearly inferior to what came before. True, it's lightweight and has little recoil, but so what? Those are secondary considerations. Can it kill? Yes, but not as effectively as a bigger-bore weapon, and not as reliably as other systems. Those are the things that count.

Our main battle rifle should be chambered for the 7.62x51, with the 5.56x45 reserved for specialized applications (the reverse of today).

46 posted on 11/15/2008 9:34:54 AM PST by Batrachian
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To: mcshot

No, I think he chopped them up. Not very bright. The Army and Marines sure could use those old chopped up M-14s. The count was close to a million.


47 posted on 11/15/2008 9:38:03 AM PST by Roklok
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To: aWolverine

You forgot strap holders so you can drag the thaang! LOL


48 posted on 11/15/2008 9:39:10 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: Roklok

Yu can not buy and M-14 at the local armory. It is my understanding that the Marines are using them in Afganistan.


49 posted on 11/15/2008 9:41:53 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: 70th Division
You forgot strap holders so you can drag the thaang! LOL

11) Wheelbarrow mount
50 posted on 11/15/2008 9:44:17 AM PST by aWolverine
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