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Looking Beyond the M4 Carbine
Sigforum ^ | November 15, 2008 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:29:49 AM PST by re_tail20

As the Army scales back on its M4 carbine buys, the service’s top official said Thursday it’s time to look for the next carbine soldiers will carry into battle.

Secretary of the Army Pete Geren’s comments set the tone for the small arms industry day that drew 19 companies from across the country to Washington, D.C., with the hope of replacing the service’s M4 carbine.

“Today is an important step in an effort to ensure that our soldiers always have the best,” Geren said. “Not just the best today, but the best tomorrow.”

The Army-sponsored event is the result of a “request for information” the service put out in August to assess what the U.S. small arms industry is capable of producing.

The Army purchased of the remaining balance of 473,000 M4s Wednesday, which will be delivered over the next two years, Geren said.

“That completes the Army acquisition objective for the M4,” Geren said, adding that the service would continue to buy the M4 in reduced quantities to maintain adequate replacements as needed.

The M4 is the Army’s primary individual weapon. For more than a year, it has been the subject of increased scrutiny by lawmakers on Capitol Hill concerned about whether soldiers have the best available weapon.

Geren said the goal of the event is to help the Army determine what is “achievable in terms of carbine technology.”

This is the first step toward a carbine competition the Army intends to open next year after Colt Defense LLC, the company that makes the M4, turns over the weapon’s technical data rights in June 2009. When that happens, the Army will have the opportunity to improve the M4 or buy a new carbine.

Geren has directed the Army to update its requirement for a carbine to reflect the current and future needs of soldiers.

The new requirement is scheduled to be completed by the end of the calendar year and approved by next summer, said Col. Doug Tamilio, Program Executive Office Soldier’s project manager for Soldier Weapons.

Provided that the new carbine requirement is approved and funding is available, the Army will issue a formal request for proposal for a new carbine to gun makers late next year, Tamilio said.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; m4; m4carbine; usarmy
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To: aWolverine

LOL!


41 posted on 11/15/2008 9:15:54 AM PST by 2111USMC
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To: mad_as_he$$

I have had exactly the same experience. I have expended many many thousands of rounds of 5.56 into various targets and was never impressed by it. Wasn’t too impressed by the M16 at all even though I currently own an M4 that has never been fired.


42 posted on 11/15/2008 9:21:50 AM PST by white17x
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To: rightwinggoth

I said this very thing on FR about four years ago and took a few flames for my troubles. My point was that some of the after action reports I’d seen indiacted the troops wanted a heavier round on hte order of 7.62. Low and behold, the Army started putting scoped M-14s in each squad in the hands of a ‘designated marksman’.

Semper Fi,


43 posted on 11/15/2008 9:22:51 AM PST by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar (The "P" in Democrat stands for patriotism.)
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To: mad_as_he$$
Switched hands drew my 45 auto that was loaded with my Uncle's (no not that uncle) very hot home loads. Put two into the heart and the guy dropped almost at my feet. Upon examination we found the 5.56mm had gone into the chest just below the sternum and out the back missing the ribs. The 45 tore him up.

Two in the heart from the 45--what would have happened if you had put 2 in the heart from the M16 at 75 feet
44 posted on 11/15/2008 9:25:02 AM PST by uncbob
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To: 3catsanadog

Only 1 BB at a time, so they’re not “assault weapons”.


45 posted on 11/15/2008 9:33:24 AM PST by G Larry (Barack’s character has been molded by extremists)
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To: re_tail20
The new FN SCAR, in its various configurations, should replace all versions of the M-16, which was only adopted because Robert McNamara had friends at Colt. In terms of stopping power and reliability it is clearly inferior to what came before. True, it's lightweight and has little recoil, but so what? Those are secondary considerations. Can it kill? Yes, but not as effectively as a bigger-bore weapon, and not as reliably as other systems. Those are the things that count.

Our main battle rifle should be chambered for the 7.62x51, with the 5.56x45 reserved for specialized applications (the reverse of today).

46 posted on 11/15/2008 9:34:54 AM PST by Batrachian
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To: mcshot

No, I think he chopped them up. Not very bright. The Army and Marines sure could use those old chopped up M-14s. The count was close to a million.


47 posted on 11/15/2008 9:38:03 AM PST by Roklok
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To: aWolverine

You forgot strap holders so you can drag the thaang! LOL


48 posted on 11/15/2008 9:39:10 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: Roklok

Yu can not buy and M-14 at the local armory. It is my understanding that the Marines are using them in Afganistan.


49 posted on 11/15/2008 9:41:53 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: 70th Division
You forgot strap holders so you can drag the thaang! LOL

11) Wheelbarrow mount
50 posted on 11/15/2008 9:44:17 AM PST by aWolverine
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To: Perdogg
I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation.

Something you guys aren't talking about.

The 5.56 will not reliably shoot through a block wall. A 7.62x39 and of course the 7.62x51 will. Most folks are behind cover during a fire fight of the military type vs TV.

Same goes for car windows, etc. (I am not saying the little slug won't shoot through windshield glass, just in which direction it will be going after it gets through is the question)

I would love the little AR15 w/gas piston and in 6.5mm. Just way to much money for me. I'll keep my AK's and bolt guns.

I stocked up on Wolf and surplus for both back 6 or 7 years ago;-)

51 posted on 11/15/2008 9:51:13 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: Roklok

Thats what I’ve been saying all along.

I see now that someone has come out with an ar variant that has a gas piston. (Can’t remember the model)

I’m still waiting for someone to come out with a conversion kit.

Of course, if I get into ar’s before someone makes a conversion kit, I just might...


52 posted on 11/15/2008 10:09:40 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: re_tail20

The Magpul Masada now called the Bushmaster ACR is a great design along with the FN SCAR. 6.5mm cartridges have all the benefits of the 7.62 NATO plus have less recoil, use less powder and metal, and more can be carried. I like the specs of the 6.5X47 Lapua, it looks like it would more reliably feed at full auto than the Grendel.

Archy a while back posted an article on an experimental 6.25mm round the Brits looked at. The results were very interesting and that was before the modern powders we have now.

The HK 416 is just a repackaged Stoner AR-18 gas system with a ridiculous price tag, and slick marketing. HK thinks civilians suck and they hate them.

If there ever is a replacement for the M-16/M-4 I really hope the military adopts a new cartridge. The adoption of the 5.56 was a bad decision and should have been changed a long time ago.


53 posted on 11/15/2008 10:14:36 AM PST by Tailback
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To: Yo-Yo
Springfield Armory SOCOM-II


[click for more]

54 posted on 11/15/2008 10:15:07 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Roklok

I recall reading that under Clinton they chopped up a bunch of brand new, never issued Winchester Model 52 target rifles too. This was at Anniston, Alabama. Almost made me cry.


55 posted on 11/15/2008 10:18:22 AM PST by yarddog
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To: NTHockey
A friend of mine told me he had to pi$$ on his Garand because it froze solid during the Battle of the Bulge.
56 posted on 11/15/2008 10:18:47 AM PST by Brucifer ("The dog ate my copy of the Constitution." G W Bush)
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To: aWolverine

Can’t agree more. Good old short stroke gas system won’t gum up the works. Same ergonomics. I need one.


57 posted on 11/15/2008 10:19:00 AM PST by Seven plus One
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To: IrishCatholic

Caseless ammo was pretty much shelved a number of years ago; not because of any technical issue (they had actually worked the bugs out) but because of lack of interest from militaries after the end of the Cold War.


58 posted on 11/15/2008 10:20:24 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: re_tail20

Except the muzzies don’t bother to treat and evac.

Better to just kill them so they don’t wind up in a US court.


59 posted on 11/15/2008 10:20:55 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Thanks - your observations mirror my own hunting experiences. Now since you’ve been there and done that, do you have any feelings about the efficacy of FMJ ammo in .45 and 9mm? I’ve got a lot of both, and a relatively small amount of (much more expensive) JHPs. Should I stock up on personal defense ammo and just expend the rest on targets and not plan on using them in case the SHTF? Thanks again.


60 posted on 11/15/2008 10:22:22 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (Liberty has few friends, many enemies, and no adequate substitute.)
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