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Looking Beyond the M4 Carbine
Sigforum ^ | November 15, 2008 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:29:49 AM PST by re_tail20

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To: Perdogg
I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation.

Something you guys aren't talking about.

The 5.56 will not reliably shoot through a block wall. A 7.62x39 and of course the 7.62x51 will. Most folks are behind cover during a fire fight of the military type vs TV.

Same goes for car windows, etc. (I am not saying the little slug won't shoot through windshield glass, just in which direction it will be going after it gets through is the question)

I would love the little AR15 w/gas piston and in 6.5mm. Just way to much money for me. I'll keep my AK's and bolt guns.

I stocked up on Wolf and surplus for both back 6 or 7 years ago;-)

51 posted on 11/15/2008 9:51:13 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: Roklok

Thats what I’ve been saying all along.

I see now that someone has come out with an ar variant that has a gas piston. (Can’t remember the model)

I’m still waiting for someone to come out with a conversion kit.

Of course, if I get into ar’s before someone makes a conversion kit, I just might...


52 posted on 11/15/2008 10:09:40 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: re_tail20

The Magpul Masada now called the Bushmaster ACR is a great design along with the FN SCAR. 6.5mm cartridges have all the benefits of the 7.62 NATO plus have less recoil, use less powder and metal, and more can be carried. I like the specs of the 6.5X47 Lapua, it looks like it would more reliably feed at full auto than the Grendel.

Archy a while back posted an article on an experimental 6.25mm round the Brits looked at. The results were very interesting and that was before the modern powders we have now.

The HK 416 is just a repackaged Stoner AR-18 gas system with a ridiculous price tag, and slick marketing. HK thinks civilians suck and they hate them.

If there ever is a replacement for the M-16/M-4 I really hope the military adopts a new cartridge. The adoption of the 5.56 was a bad decision and should have been changed a long time ago.


53 posted on 11/15/2008 10:14:36 AM PST by Tailback
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To: Yo-Yo
Springfield Armory SOCOM-II


[click for more]

54 posted on 11/15/2008 10:15:07 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Roklok

I recall reading that under Clinton they chopped up a bunch of brand new, never issued Winchester Model 52 target rifles too. This was at Anniston, Alabama. Almost made me cry.


55 posted on 11/15/2008 10:18:22 AM PST by yarddog
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To: NTHockey
A friend of mine told me he had to pi$$ on his Garand because it froze solid during the Battle of the Bulge.
56 posted on 11/15/2008 10:18:47 AM PST by Brucifer ("The dog ate my copy of the Constitution." G W Bush)
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To: aWolverine

Can’t agree more. Good old short stroke gas system won’t gum up the works. Same ergonomics. I need one.


57 posted on 11/15/2008 10:19:00 AM PST by Seven plus One
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To: IrishCatholic

Caseless ammo was pretty much shelved a number of years ago; not because of any technical issue (they had actually worked the bugs out) but because of lack of interest from militaries after the end of the Cold War.


58 posted on 11/15/2008 10:20:24 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: re_tail20

Except the muzzies don’t bother to treat and evac.

Better to just kill them so they don’t wind up in a US court.


59 posted on 11/15/2008 10:20:55 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Thanks - your observations mirror my own hunting experiences. Now since you’ve been there and done that, do you have any feelings about the efficacy of FMJ ammo in .45 and 9mm? I’ve got a lot of both, and a relatively small amount of (much more expensive) JHPs. Should I stock up on personal defense ammo and just expend the rest on targets and not plan on using them in case the SHTF? Thanks again.


60 posted on 11/15/2008 10:22:22 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (Liberty has few friends, many enemies, and no adequate substitute.)
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To: uncbob
Probably so. The disturbing thing was it did not slow him down at all.
61 posted on 11/15/2008 10:22:55 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: TEXASPROUD

Even Eugene Stoner realized the flaw in the AR-15... which is why he went on to design the AR-18.

He tried to get the government to adopt that rifle instead, but they’d already settled on the -15 and weren’t interested.


62 posted on 11/15/2008 10:23:33 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: NTHockey

One problem.

“bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-PIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGG!”


63 posted on 11/15/2008 10:24:22 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Yo-Yo

DPMS sells 7.62x39 ar-15 barrels and magazines.


64 posted on 11/15/2008 10:24:32 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: jamaksin

There was never a belt-fed BAR.


65 posted on 11/15/2008 10:24:47 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Perdogg
"I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation."

And my problem with overkill would be?...

I like the 7.62 Nato round for any situation that may arise. While my new Sig 556 is a great answer to the AR in the 5.56mmm realm (dependable and accurate, AK meets AR), the caliber still stinks overall IMHO considering the rounds out their that have much better ballistics. I prefer my (shortened) FAL tactical. Works great in close quarters and long range too with plenty of stopping power.

Of course what do I know... I always go for overkill.Photobucket

66 posted on 11/15/2008 10:25:12 AM PST by SiVisPacemParaBellum (Peace through superior firepower!)
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To: SiVisPacemParaBellum
Photobucket"out their"???...'scuse me OUT THERE. Man I need coffee before I start posting in the AM.Photobucket
67 posted on 11/15/2008 10:31:56 AM PST by SiVisPacemParaBellum (Peace through superior firepower!)
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To: ExpatGator

I don’t have a lot of M-14 experience, but I agree that they were heavy and so was the ammo compared to the M-16. Our ground pounders are already wearing very heavy body armor, and I just can’t imagine dragging around an M-14 in that sort of situation.


68 posted on 11/15/2008 10:32:08 AM PST by Brucifer ("The dog ate my copy of the Constitution." G W Bush)
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To: andy58-in-nh
Well, FMJ in 9mm and 45 has been chewed into fine atomic pieces over the years. Many believe that a hollow point or semi jacket in either does no good because the energy just is not there to get the bullet to expand. The US Army has run lots of tests on this going back into the 20's. They are all on the net somewhere. My basic take is that a HP or semi jacket has a better chance of expanding when it hits a bone than an FMJ. I shoot HP's in 9mm for self defense but not for practice. All my 45 is hardball with an overcharge they go out at about 1150 FPS. VERY HARD ON THE GUN!!! But they do serious damage on pig carcasses. My favorite though right now is a 357 with semi wadcutters turned around. They hit pigs and spread out to about a nickel's diameter.

At the end of the day it is in my opinion all about shot placement. You hit somebody in the heart twice and once in the head they are going down. BTW do not forget to make sure they do not get up.

69 posted on 11/15/2008 10:32:44 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: re_tail20

I’ve heard that theory before. But I don’t think it rings true in the current battlefield environment because they don’t act like traditional military units in how they treat casualties. It’s not an organized atmosphere. If a dude gets shot he continues to fight most of the time if he is decisively engaged. And I personally am not aware of Shia or Sunni fighters going out of their way to help retrieve wounded comrades. My knowledge of how they fight (I’ve never personally been involved in a firefight) is that they more or less scatter like quail when you start applying effective suppressive firepower, and leave their wounds to the individuals concerned.


70 posted on 11/15/2008 10:35:34 AM PST by GodfearingTexan
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To: re_tail20
IDF TAVOR...


71 posted on 11/15/2008 10:36:28 AM PST by Thunder90
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To: Roklok

You’re right there.


72 posted on 11/15/2008 10:39:52 AM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: GodfearingTexan

I agree with you that it doesn’t ring true in actual reality against our current enemy. R. Lee Ermey just put it forward because it was true in his war, Vietnam


73 posted on 11/15/2008 10:49:04 AM PST by re_tail20
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To: mad_as_he$$
At the end of the day it is in my opinion all about shot placement.

Yep. The reason I practice frequently is to improve accuracy through trigger control, sight picture and breathing. I'm just concerned about ever relying on target ammo for defensive purposes with a handgun, should I ever run out of the good stuff. I've used +Ps in 9mm but it does seem to be hard on the gun (Springfield XD-9). Perhaps I should just suck it up and buy up whatever HP's I can afford before Obama slaps a 500% surcharge on the SOB's.

74 posted on 11/15/2008 10:49:34 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (Liberty has few friends, many enemies, and no adequate substitute.)
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To: Thunder90

Impressive toy, but what if you shoot left handed? Where do the hot empties go?


75 posted on 11/15/2008 10:56:49 AM PST by Concho (Bitterly Clinging to Guns and Religion)
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To: mad_as_he$$

>>Ever tote an M-1 around all day in 120 degree heat?

Parris Island is pretty close to 120 degrees.


76 posted on 11/15/2008 10:57:04 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners.)
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To: re_tail20

Thanks guys real nice reading!


77 posted on 11/15/2008 11:34:02 AM PST by Cheetahcat (Osamabama the Wright kind of Racist!)
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To: Spktyr

The reason I asked is it would seem time to move on from a cased design. Imagine the weight savings.
Not that I have a clue about the specifics.
I do remember reading about Metal Storm. What ever happened to that? Isn’t there something that can be done to leap a generation ahead in small arms?


78 posted on 11/15/2008 11:56:12 AM PST by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: IrishCatholic

MetalStorm has many different problems:

1. You have to take it back to the armory or the factory to reload it.
2. You cannot tailor your load to what you need.
3. The point of impact changes with every round fired.
4. A MetalStorm weapon is HEAVY.

The leap forward (which nobody seems to have been interested in) would have been the H&K G11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11


79 posted on 11/15/2008 11:59:56 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: IrishCatholic

Forgot to mention, the US Army *is* also quietly funding research/competition for a caseless weapon as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Small_Arms_Technologies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_rifle


80 posted on 11/15/2008 12:01:53 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

That firearm looks like 3 main rifles had a love child.

How the third got in there, I don’t want to know...


81 posted on 11/15/2008 12:10:50 PM PST by wastedyears (Every FReeper is on Obama's Black List. He will try to have us all "taken care of." Mark my words)
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To: aWolverine

I’ll take an HK416 myself.


82 posted on 11/15/2008 12:12:12 PM PST by wastedyears (Every FReeper is on Obama's Black List. He will try to have us all "taken care of." Mark my words)
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To: Spktyr

Thanks for the posts and the links. Very interesting.


83 posted on 11/15/2008 12:13:19 PM PST by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: re_tail20

84 posted on 11/15/2008 12:17:34 PM PST by TheRedSoxWinThePennant
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To: re_tail20

Forget it. The military will be lucky not to have their projectiles made from nerf foam.


85 posted on 11/15/2008 12:57:33 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Vote against the dem party)
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To: TheRedSoxWinThePennant

Hahahahahaha

I’ve played Halo 3 enough to know those are Covenant arms.


86 posted on 11/15/2008 2:04:15 PM PST by wastedyears (Every FReeper is on Obama's Black List. He will try to have us all "taken care of." Mark my words)
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To: re_tail20

I look beyond my M4 whenever I line up the sights on a target.


87 posted on 11/15/2008 2:42:45 PM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Perdogg
I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation.

There is no such thing as 'overkill' in a combat situation.

L

88 posted on 11/15/2008 3:18:39 PM PST by Lurker ("America is at that awkward stage. " Claire Wolfe, call your office.)
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To: NTHockey

Yea but it’s a wet heat!!! ;-)


89 posted on 11/15/2008 3:33:41 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: wastedyears
That firearm looks like 3 main rifles had a love child.

Ha ha! Yah, it's a little funky looking I'll grant you that.

The upper receiver looks weird because they cut off the M-16/AR-15 carrying handle, but kept the M-16/AR-15 rear sight and put on a ringed front sight. Since it uses an AK-47 gas system with piston and telescopic recoil spring, they were able to incorporate the FN-FAL folding stock. They cut down the buttstock to give access to the charging handle and mag release when it's folded. So, the weird look is a form follows function thing.

Once you get past all that and shoot it, you realize what a great .22 rifle it really is. IMO, head and shoulders above an AR-15.

As I understand it, Daewoo had the license to manufacture the M-16 for the ROK Army. When the license ran out, they took what they consider the best of three rifle systems (M-16, AK-47 & FN-FAL) and put them together to make the K2.

The K1 was based upon the Armalite AR-18 gas system, so it's a horse of an entirely different color and a piece of junk when compared to the K2.

Like I say, it's robust, reliable and accurate. It's like the Energizer Bunny. It keeps going, and going, and going...

90 posted on 11/15/2008 3:42:50 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power.)
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To: wastedyears
How the third got in there, I don’t want to know...

Here's what it looks like with the buttstock folded.


91 posted on 11/15/2008 3:46:50 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power.)
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You can still buy the M1A which is the same as the M14. pricey though


92 posted on 11/15/2008 3:58:49 PM PST by white17x
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To: re_tail20

bttt


93 posted on 11/15/2008 7:47:52 PM PST by SuperLuminal
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

That’s looks like 5.56 NATO, not .22 to me.


94 posted on 11/15/2008 9:07:45 PM PST by wastedyears (Every FReeper is on Obama's Black List. He will try to have us all "taken care of." Mark my words)
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To: re_tail20

The ‘long carbine’, aka M-14, was the best. Try it in something around 7mm and maybe in the ‘Socom’ configuration.

I variously carried an M16, Car15, M79, Thompson SMG, and M3 ‘Grease Gun’ and none of them worked as well as the M14.

As for uncontrollability on full-auto, incorporate a three round burst feature ala the M4.

The M14 was also the easiest to keep clean in the field.


95 posted on 11/15/2008 9:37:47 PM PST by x1stcav (11/05/2008: the day the Resistance began.)
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To: mad_as_he$$
Have you checked out RBCD ammo? It's expensive but the 45acp travels
at 2036fps/828flbs with 90 grains. The TPD 45 ammo does 2375+fps/1002+ flbs using 80 grains.
96 posted on 11/15/2008 10:13:50 PM PST by MaxMax (I'll welcome death when God calls me. Until then, the fight is on)
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To: IrishCatholic

I don’t know if it is true or not but have read that the main drawback to caseless ammor is heat. The brass (or whatever it happens to be made of) cools the chamber when first inserted, then removes a lot of heat when it is fired and ejected.

the propellant in a caseless cartridge, simply adds heat and it builds so rapidly that the cartridges are capable of cooking off. A cooling system would add bulk and weight as well as something else to tear up.


97 posted on 11/15/2008 10:16:56 PM PST by yarddog
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To: MaxMax
I have a buddy that likes it. I try to keep the slug 185 or bigger just because I am that way!!
98 posted on 11/16/2008 7:27:14 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit.)
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To: Perdogg
I think 7.62mm is overkill in close quarters combat situation.

Take it from me, NOTHING is overkill in a close quarter combat situation!

99 posted on 11/16/2008 7:31:17 AM PST by RetiredArmy (America is entering four very long and cold years. First victim: liberty)
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To: mad_as_he$$

My AR 15 is locked and loaded and ready.


100 posted on 11/16/2008 7:33:16 AM PST by RetiredArmy (America is entering four very long and cold years. First victim: liberty)
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