Skip to comments.Looking Beyond the M4 Carbine
Posted on 11/15/2008 8:29:49 AM PST by re_tail20
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Something you guys aren't talking about.
The 5.56 will not reliably shoot through a block wall. A 7.62x39 and of course the 7.62x51 will. Most folks are behind cover during a fire fight of the military type vs TV.
Same goes for car windows, etc. (I am not saying the little slug won't shoot through windshield glass, just in which direction it will be going after it gets through is the question)
I would love the little AR15 w/gas piston and in 6.5mm. Just way to much money for me. I'll keep my AK's and bolt guns.
I stocked up on Wolf and surplus for both back 6 or 7 years ago;-)
Thats what I’ve been saying all along.
I see now that someone has come out with an ar variant that has a gas piston. (Can’t remember the model)
I’m still waiting for someone to come out with a conversion kit.
Of course, if I get into ar’s before someone makes a conversion kit, I just might...
The Magpul Masada now called the Bushmaster ACR is a great design along with the FN SCAR. 6.5mm cartridges have all the benefits of the 7.62 NATO plus have less recoil, use less powder and metal, and more can be carried. I like the specs of the 6.5X47 Lapua, it looks like it would more reliably feed at full auto than the Grendel.
Archy a while back posted an article on an experimental 6.25mm round the Brits looked at. The results were very interesting and that was before the modern powders we have now.
The HK 416 is just a repackaged Stoner AR-18 gas system with a ridiculous price tag, and slick marketing. HK thinks civilians suck and they hate them.
If there ever is a replacement for the M-16/M-4 I really hope the military adopts a new cartridge. The adoption of the 5.56 was a bad decision and should have been changed a long time ago.
I recall reading that under Clinton they chopped up a bunch of brand new, never issued Winchester Model 52 target rifles too. This was at Anniston, Alabama. Almost made me cry.
Can’t agree more. Good old short stroke gas system won’t gum up the works. Same ergonomics. I need one.
Caseless ammo was pretty much shelved a number of years ago; not because of any technical issue (they had actually worked the bugs out) but because of lack of interest from militaries after the end of the Cold War.
Except the muzzies don’t bother to treat and evac.
Better to just kill them so they don’t wind up in a US court.
Thanks - your observations mirror my own hunting experiences. Now since you’ve been there and done that, do you have any feelings about the efficacy of FMJ ammo in .45 and 9mm? I’ve got a lot of both, and a relatively small amount of (much more expensive) JHPs. Should I stock up on personal defense ammo and just expend the rest on targets and not plan on using them in case the SHTF? Thanks again.
Even Eugene Stoner realized the flaw in the AR-15... which is why he went on to design the AR-18.
He tried to get the government to adopt that rifle instead, but they’d already settled on the -15 and weren’t interested.
DPMS sells 7.62x39 ar-15 barrels and magazines.
There was never a belt-fed BAR.
And my problem with overkill would be?...
I like the 7.62 Nato round for any situation that may arise. While my new Sig 556 is a great answer to the AR in the 5.56mmm realm (dependable and accurate, AK meets AR), the caliber still stinks overall IMHO considering the rounds out their that have much better ballistics. I prefer my (shortened) FAL tactical. Works great in close quarters and long range too with plenty of stopping power.
I don’t have a lot of M-14 experience, but I agree that they were heavy and so was the ammo compared to the M-16. Our ground pounders are already wearing very heavy body armor, and I just can’t imagine dragging around an M-14 in that sort of situation.
At the end of the day it is in my opinion all about shot placement. You hit somebody in the heart twice and once in the head they are going down. BTW do not forget to make sure they do not get up.
I’ve heard that theory before. But I don’t think it rings true in the current battlefield environment because they don’t act like traditional military units in how they treat casualties. It’s not an organized atmosphere. If a dude gets shot he continues to fight most of the time if he is decisively engaged. And I personally am not aware of Shia or Sunni fighters going out of their way to help retrieve wounded comrades. My knowledge of how they fight (I’ve never personally been involved in a firefight) is that they more or less scatter like quail when you start applying effective suppressive firepower, and leave their wounds to the individuals concerned.
You’re right there.
I agree with you that it doesn’t ring true in actual reality against our current enemy. R. Lee Ermey just put it forward because it was true in his war, Vietnam
Yep. The reason I practice frequently is to improve accuracy through trigger control, sight picture and breathing. I'm just concerned about ever relying on target ammo for defensive purposes with a handgun, should I ever run out of the good stuff. I've used +Ps in 9mm but it does seem to be hard on the gun (Springfield XD-9). Perhaps I should just suck it up and buy up whatever HP's I can afford before Obama slaps a 500% surcharge on the SOB's.
Impressive toy, but what if you shoot left handed? Where do the hot empties go?
>>Ever tote an M-1 around all day in 120 degree heat?
Parris Island is pretty close to 120 degrees.
Thanks guys real nice reading!
The reason I asked is it would seem time to move on from a cased design. Imagine the weight savings.
Not that I have a clue about the specifics.
I do remember reading about Metal Storm. What ever happened to that? Isn’t there something that can be done to leap a generation ahead in small arms?
MetalStorm has many different problems:
1. You have to take it back to the armory or the factory to reload it.
2. You cannot tailor your load to what you need.
3. The point of impact changes with every round fired.
4. A MetalStorm weapon is HEAVY.
The leap forward (which nobody seems to have been interested in) would have been the H&K G11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11
Forgot to mention, the US Army *is* also quietly funding research/competition for a caseless weapon as well.
That firearm looks like 3 main rifles had a love child.
How the third got in there, I don’t want to know...
I’ll take an HK416 myself.
Thanks for the posts and the links. Very interesting.
Forget it. The military will be lucky not to have their projectiles made from nerf foam.
I’ve played Halo 3 enough to know those are Covenant arms.
I look beyond my M4 whenever I line up the sights on a target.
There is no such thing as 'overkill' in a combat situation.
Yea but it’s a wet heat!!! ;-)
Ha ha! Yah, it's a little funky looking I'll grant you that.
The upper receiver looks weird because they cut off the M-16/AR-15 carrying handle, but kept the M-16/AR-15 rear sight and put on a ringed front sight. Since it uses an AK-47 gas system with piston and telescopic recoil spring, they were able to incorporate the FN-FAL folding stock. They cut down the buttstock to give access to the charging handle and mag release when it's folded. So, the weird look is a form follows function thing.
Once you get past all that and shoot it, you realize what a great .22 rifle it really is. IMO, head and shoulders above an AR-15.
As I understand it, Daewoo had the license to manufacture the M-16 for the ROK Army. When the license ran out, they took what they consider the best of three rifle systems (M-16, AK-47 & FN-FAL) and put them together to make the K2.
The K1 was based upon the Armalite AR-18 gas system, so it's a horse of an entirely different color and a piece of junk when compared to the K2.
Like I say, it's robust, reliable and accurate. It's like the Energizer Bunny. It keeps going, and going, and going...
Here's what it looks like with the buttstock folded.
You can still buy the M1A which is the same as the M14. pricey though
That’s looks like 5.56 NATO, not .22 to me.
The ‘long carbine’, aka M-14, was the best. Try it in something around 7mm and maybe in the ‘Socom’ configuration.
I variously carried an M16, Car15, M79, Thompson SMG, and M3 ‘Grease Gun’ and none of them worked as well as the M14.
As for uncontrollability on full-auto, incorporate a three round burst feature ala the M4.
The M14 was also the easiest to keep clean in the field.
I don’t know if it is true or not but have read that the main drawback to caseless ammor is heat. The brass (or whatever it happens to be made of) cools the chamber when first inserted, then removes a lot of heat when it is fired and ejected.
the propellant in a caseless cartridge, simply adds heat and it builds so rapidly that the cartridges are capable of cooking off. A cooling system would add bulk and weight as well as something else to tear up.
Take it from me, NOTHING is overkill in a close quarter combat situation!
My AR 15 is locked and loaded and ready.
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