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The "American Constitution Union" (vanity)
VetsCoR ^ | 11/19/2008 | A Navy Vet

Posted on 11/19/2008 6:34:40 PM PST by A Navy Vet

The Republican party lost again. We can debate all day long why that occurred. So where do go we from here?

The answer is in the courts!

Conservatives, and even Repub loyals have lost big time and we are now facing another FDR, Johnson, Carter expansion of liberal/socialist ideals. If you want to hang tough for Obama's "possible" failings for a Congressional change in 2010, more power to you.

I am suggesting a new tactic: The liberals have used the courts for decades against conservatism and won many many times. I suggest we do the same. It's time Constitutional advocates start using the courts and pushing for Constitutional adherence.

I say forget party loyalty which obviously didn't work out. We conservatives have the historical written documents to back us up. Think of ALL the correspondence between the Founding Fathers and regarding their INTENT.

So, I suggest a NEW Constitutional legal entity be formed. If you don't like the "American Conservative Union" name, than suggest another. It doesn't matter what it is called, it just needs the resources to pay for the lawyers.

Short of revolution, I see our only hope in the courts. Think about it.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial
KEYWORDS: activism; constitution; lawsuits; organization

1 posted on 11/19/2008 6:34:44 PM PST by A Navy Vet
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To: A Navy Vet
We conservatives have the historical written documents to back us up

Don't believe this will make a difference now. Looks like they are about to lock up the 60 for the Senate. Obama is a communist, not a socialists, and with the constant lineup of his cabinet, we are toast. Hang on, all we can do is ride it out.

2 posted on 11/19/2008 7:19:37 PM PST by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: A Navy Vet

Check out http://www.judicialwatch.org/ and http://www.myheritage.org/


3 posted on 11/19/2008 7:48:22 PM PST by lancer
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To: A Navy Vet

As a practicing attorney, I can assure you that the Constitution is for all practical purposes ignored by the courts insofar as it would constrain governmental power, unless a Leftist issue is involved.


4 posted on 11/19/2008 7:54:49 PM PST by Buchal ("Two wings of the same bird of prey . . .")
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To: A Navy Vet

Since the Constitution has become, to too many judges, a “living document”, man the barricades.


5 posted on 11/19/2008 9:10:49 PM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: A Navy Vet; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright; Bob J
We discussed this years ago. Now that we no longer have other options, this is the only way we can fight the socialists.

TAKE IT ALL TO COURT! Load up the state and federal government court agendas. The lib/socialists have been doing it for years. With enough money, we can do the same.

Yes, I know there are a few conservative legal organizations out there, but what have they done to slow the advancement of socialism? Some sporadic success. But not enough to stop the advance.

Look guys, it's no longer a matter of Free Republic or other conservative websites or real-world organizations spreading the word amongst the choir. It's now about fighting in the courts.

Again, we have a wealth of info provided by the Founding Fathers and their intent on every issue to make a legal case in whatever fight we choose.

Am I wrong in my thinking?

6 posted on 11/19/2008 10:16:54 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet
"The liberals have used the courts for decades against conservatism and won many many times."

This is because the liberals "own" the courts. They have appointed most of the judges for the last hundred years or so. Even the judges appointed by republicans have been mostly moderates or liberals. Very few conservatives have served on the bench and even fewer "originalists."

7 posted on 11/19/2008 10:29:09 PM PST by Jim Robinson (We ARE the dissent, baby!)
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To: lancer; Jim Robinson; Bob J; Neil E. Wright
Judicial Watch has long ago been known for its self-serving interests and lack of results. The Heritage Foundation talks the talk, but does little else...it's a think tank, which means nothing in this age of popular culture.

It's time for a dedicated legal organization to fight the only fight we have left - in the courts. Such a fight will take large sums of money, even if it takes money away from the Republican party.

Think outside the "political" box. THINK LAWSUITS! Think if enough money were directed to the above, and how it could create a Constitutional awareness and even a Constitutional crisis.

THINK of the media exposure of an organization that is dedicated to Constitutional adherence. The MSM would be lost in trying to to spin "Constitutional lawsuits" based on the Founding Fathers ideals and discussions. They would have nothing other than their "feel good" positions for a Utopian society to counter such ideals. They would be lost.

It has always been a matter of informing the populace about what is best for them. A legal entity, with enough money supporting it, could inform that populace through legal action.

8 posted on 11/19/2008 10:43:38 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Buchal
"As a practicing attorney, I can assure you that the Constitution is for all practical purposes ignored by the courts insofar as it would constrain governmental power, unless a Leftist issue is involved."

Yes, while not an attorney, I have been a political activist and witnessed such "ignored" throughout my political life. However, if an entity were to exist that has the resources to take issues to the USSC, it's worth a try.

Point is, those who have standing against specific legislation that is contrary to Constitutional principles should file suit. Do you not agree?

9 posted on 11/19/2008 10:51:35 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

“A legal entity, with enough money supporting it, could inform that populace through legal action.”

How does it do that?

Also, I’m not sure what kind of legal action you’re talking about. Could you give an example?


10 posted on 11/19/2008 10:59:25 PM PST by Bob J (For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one strikes at it's root.)
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To: Jim Robinson
"This is because the liberals "own" the courts. They have appointed most of the judges for the last hundred years or so. Even the judges appointed by republicans have been mostly moderates or liberals. Very few conservatives have served on the bench and even fewer "originalists."

Yes, Jim. But what do we have to lose my flooding the courts with Constitutional lawsuits? If nothing else, we can delay the on-coming socialist agenda, and just maybe educate enough people to make them think.

What else are we going to do? Keep hoping that some savior will come and rescue us? It's over. Our last recourse is in the Courts. If that doesn't work...it's about Thomas Jefferson's quote. You know the quote I'm thinking of.

11 posted on 11/19/2008 11:02:01 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Bob J; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright
"How does it do that?"

That's partly easy. An ACLU type structured organization with the opposite agenda. Unfortunately, the money part is not as easy. Conservatives tend to donate their money to the "party". Liberals tend to donate their money to causes (see various State initiatives that have failed). It is now obvious we have wasted our dollars.

"Also, I’m not sure what kind of legal action you’re talking about. Could you give an example?"

There are countless examples. Start with gun laws or eminent domain laws or anything that you realize is contrary to the basic precepts of the US Constitution.

A quick example is the fact that the California State Supreme Court has accepted a challenge to Proposition 8 to amend the CA Constitution. Why would they even consider such a thing?

Much of the US Code is in contradiction of the original intent of the Founding Fathers. We should be filing lawsuits against every state and federal law that is passed that is not within the state or federal Constitutional framework as intended. That takes money and organization.

C'mon, Bob, think. You used to be on top of this stuff, more than me. Do your homework - pick your issue. It just takes money for the lawyers. Again, the libs do it, why can't we?

Best

12 posted on 11/19/2008 11:42:16 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Logical me
"Don't believe this will make a difference now. Looks like they are about to lock up the 60 for the Senate. Obama is a communist, not a socialists, and with the constant lineup of his cabinet, we are toast. Hang on, all we can do is ride it out."

Even if that happens, sometimes judges surprise us. Did we not just this year get a ruling from the USSC that recognized the individual right to own a gun (even with restrictions)? While we can debate the "restrictions", the ruling was we have a right to defend our homes. However, I wish they would have taken it further to defend ourselves in public. But then, State "concealed carry" allows for that.

Bottom line, the gun arguement is no longer about the militia clause. While it may be unfortunate that it was a 5 to 4 decision, it will be a long time before this ruling is even attempted to be over-turned.

13 posted on 11/19/2008 11:55:53 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet
Point is, those who have standing against specific legislation that is contrary to Constitutional principles should file suit. Do you not agree?

It is not clear to me where it is best to focus the scarce resources of conservatives. I am slowly coming to believe that it would make more sense to focus them on the elimination of political enemies. Anti-Constitutional judges are for the most part locked in place as long as they live. Anti-Constitutional politicians can be defeated. When the rule of law is dead, as it is rapidly becoming, what matters most is the character of the leaders. There is still some hope of influencing that variable.

14 posted on 11/20/2008 3:26:23 AM PST by Buchal ("Two wings of the same bird of prey . . .")
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To: A Navy Vet

Targeted lawsuits on specific issues which we can win may be a strategy. But filing hundreds of suits just for the purpose of “tying up the courts”, I’m not sure what that would accomplish with the exception of emptying our pockets.

I’ve got my issue, it hasn’t changed for 10 years.


15 posted on 11/20/2008 7:42:48 AM PST by Bob J (For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one strikes at it's root.)
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To: Buchal

How difficult would it be to find conservative attorneys to involve in such a movement? Dare I ask if there is any sort of conservative advocacy group for lawyers... or anything remotely along those lines?


16 posted on 11/20/2008 11:21:18 AM PST by snowrip (Liberal? YOU ARE A SOCIALIST WITH NO RATIONAL ARGUMENT.)
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To: snowrip

If the problem is the ACLU and the NLG, why not just target them?


17 posted on 11/20/2008 12:05:40 PM PST by Bob J (For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one strikes at it's root.)
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To: Buchal; Bob J; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright
"It is not clear to me where it is best to focus the scarce resources of conservatives. I am slowly coming to believe that it would make more sense to focus them on the elimination of political enemies.

That's my point. Focus our resources on the Courts.

"Anti-Constitutional judges are for the most part locked in place as long as they live. Anti-Constitutional politicians can be defeated."

Granted, but strong viable lawsuits IS an alternative. The USSC may decide against our position, but I now believe that is the last recourse, short of armed rebellion to protect our Republic. The political process is corrupt and beyond redemption. To fight the enroaching socialism in the courts may be our last chance.

18 posted on 11/21/2008 11:06:27 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

I guess my point is that the judicial process is probably corrupt and beynond redemption too, at least in cases involving government agencies, my speciality.


19 posted on 11/21/2008 11:18:02 PM PST by Buchal ("Two wings of the same bird of prey . . .")
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To: Bob J; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright
"But filing hundreds of suits just for the purpose of “tying up the courts”, I’m not sure what that would accomplish with the exception of emptying our pockets."

Okay. So I may have taken my suggestion to extreme. Still, if there is any hope of returning to Constitutional adherence when so much of our nation wants and thinks they deserve STUFF from others, I see the only recourse in the Federal courts. The political process is a farce. You must see that by now?

To paraphrase Alexander Tytler, "Once the populace realizes they can vote themselves the largess of the treasury, the Republic is doomed." This has been the case for some 40 years. Obama, Hillary (SoS), Reid, and Pelosi will continue down that road. We are heading towards the socialist plans of Clinton 2.0.

Such a political mechanism along with the ill-informed American populace will see the end of our Great Experiment in self-government. People want goodies. That's why a unqualified charismatic man is heading towards our White House; he promises them stuff. Sound familiar? Think 1993.

How do you fight that nowadays? I say in the courts with every fiber of our Conservative being while we ignore party affiliations.

Do you really want to keep prancing around with the Republican flag and telling all that everything will be good a couple of years from now if you just vote Republican ticket? Hasn't seemed to work to well, has it? Newt's Contract for America was cool, but Newt is now irrelevant.

Have you not learned anything from the RINO's? Bob, the Republican party has left you. Geeze, some are already talking about working with Obama, (Spector, Snowe, et al).

The courts are our last bastion. Yes, I know they are filled with liberal justices appointed by clinton, but it is worth the try. There is NO other recourse in our political process.

I’ve got my issue, it hasn’t changed for 10 years."

Just what IS your issue, if I may ask?

20 posted on 11/21/2008 11:50:15 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Bob J
"If the problem is the ACLU and the NLG, why not just target them?"

You're being facitious, right? Or do I have it wrong?

21 posted on 11/21/2008 11:51:53 PM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: logical; Yukon; murron; Magician
"Don't believe this will make a difference now. Looks like they are about to lock up the 60 for the Senate. Obama is a communist, not a socialists, and with the constant lineup of his cabinet, we are toast. Hang on, all we can do is ride it out."

Er, wrong. The US Constitution is very direct in its positions. Plus, there are numerous writings between the Founding Fathers concerning the intent of the original Constitution Convention that built the foundation of our STILL current law-based society.

Obami needs to be proven qualified for the highest office in the land. Now that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has accepted a legal challenge for close-door conferance on DECEMBER 5th, and will probably get 3 others in conference to view Obamis legal status, we may looking at a Constitutional crisis. I say yeah! Bring it on!

If that were not to occur, and Obami gets in the WH without being a "natural-born citizen" of the USA, our system will be null and void. It will be the ultimate destruction of our Republic and time to give up our lives and sacred honor for the defense of said Republic.

All that said, if Obami simply puts out a long form birth certificate that proves he is a "natural born citizen", then no foul. But why is he spending some million dollars to hide his doctor-signed birth certificate? Hawaii allows people to register in state from outside births on a "Certification of Live Birth". That means nothing. Just means someone was born, in no particular place other than what the Mother of Father says.

I am currently looking at my original Certificate of Live Birth as recorded in xxx xxxxxxx, xx on xxxxxxx xx xxxx. It includes the below with redacted parts for my security:

Line 1: Child's first name; xxxxxx; Middle name: xxxxx; Last name; xxxxxx;
Second line: Male; Single; January 20, 1950; 8:47am
Third line: Place of Birth, City: Los Angeles; County: Los Angeles
Fourth, fifth, and sixth lines: Full name and address of HOSPITAL.
Fifth line: Full address of Mother, including county;
Sixth line: City and State of Mother; ,br>Seventh line: Mother's full name; xxxx xxxx xxxx; race - white;
Eighth line: Mothers age; Birthplace; Mailing address;
Ninth line: Father's full name' xxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx; race -white;
10th line: Fathers' age, Birthplace, Occupation, Kind of business;
11th line; Informants signature line: Mother's signature and date;
12th Line: Attendants Certification: Signed by the delivering MD with address;
13th line; Date recorded by Local Registrar with signature and witness;

It reads at the bottom: "This is a certified copy of the record if it bears the seal of the County Recorder imprinted in purple ink"
Fee: $2.00 - xxx,xx,xxxx.
Rxx x xxxx; Country Recorder." The purple seal is imprinted on this document I have used it so many times to show my citizenship. It has gotten so crumpled from carrying it in my wallet over so many years that it's now incased in a protective plastic sleeve. It is the genuine article. Granted, it originates from 1950, however, it is still was is called the "long form" or "vault form", mostly because it has the delivering Doctor's name on it. That is the proof of where a child is born.

THE ABOVE IS A TRUE "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" vault or long form as its called, with delivering Doctor, county Registrar signed (with witness) and embossed with State seal. It is not a Certification of Live Birth that Hawaii Secretary of State issues to anyone who wants someone to recognized as just being born. That bogus "live birth" document has no legal bearing as to where the person was born.

The silly little Birth Certificates they give you when you leave the hospital are just for keep sakes when you leave the hospital or possibly in this case, a paper issued to Obamai's mother once she rushed back to Hawaii. If the document does NOT have the delivering MD's signature, it is invalid. Certifications of Live Birth only say you were born, and the parent or guardian can claim the child was born right there or anywhere. IT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT WITHOUT THE DELIVERING DOCTOR'S NAME AND SIGNATURE!

So where the hell is Obama's Certificate (not certification) of Live Birth, signed by the delivering MD?

Now you know the question at hand. Sorry if I was too repetitious in my delivery (pun intended).

So gee whiz Barry, just pull up the same document I just showed and put an end to this nonsense.

CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH (notice it doesn't say Certifican of Live Birth)

Child' First Name; Last name;
Date of birth;

22 posted on 11/22/2008 2:00:44 AM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet
CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH (notice it doesn't say Certifican of Live Birth) Child' First Name; Last name; Date of birth;

Oops, that was suppose to be deleted.

23 posted on 11/22/2008 2:03:26 AM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Buchal; Bob J; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright
"Anti-Constitutional judges are for the most part locked in place as long as they live. Anti-Constitutional politicians can be defeated."

That is just the point I'm trying to make. "Anti-Constitutional politicians" are so many and the political machinery is against us now. And while I understand there are many liberal judges out there, the USSC still has SOME semblance of rationality. We take our case all the way to them.

Look, our politicians are about themselves. Our current Federal politicians are about socialism. Our President-Elect is the same. So what is the last bastion of redress? I see it as the United States Supreme Court. They sometimes make rulings we don't like, but they did just re-affirmed the right to gun ownership to protect ourselves. That was huge.

So if the in-coming Executive Branch is full of socialists, and the Congress has what's looking like filibuster-proof power, what is left to keep us from becoming a Europeon type socialist government? The Judicial Branch.

We The People, question/sue every socialist legislation passed by Congress. With enough attempts, if nothing else, Congress just may back down. If not, we tie up their un-Constitutional crap in the courts for years. My god, man, the ACLU and the environmental Nazis have been doing it for decades. Why can't we?

It will just take money, lot's of money. And as someone mentioned to me the other night, it is money taken away from Republican efforts. Personally, I don't give one shit about Republicans anymore. They had their chance and put up old geezers who couldn't compete. Fuck the Republican party.

Let's think about lawsuits to allow us to drill and use or own resources. Let's think about lawsuits that deal with the financial meltdown caused by liberal feel-good sub-prime mortgages brought on by the idiots who refuse to regulate the system (think Waxman and others). Let's look at every single thing the Liberal/socialists are doing to destroy our Republic from within and sue each and every one. Yes, I know that fedgov individuals are immune to lawsuits, but legislation is not immune.

What choice do we have? What? RahRah for the next Republican candidate? Do you want to wait that long, as Obamai turns us into a socialist nation?

I am telling you and anyone reading this that this is our last chance. The Republic is dying. With the Fedgov taking over the financial systems and so much else...where do we go?

We have (3) options:
Accept the coming socialism and the fall of the US as a world power;
Fight everything in the courts on Constitutional principles;
Revolution (not pretty)

I'm open to other options, but can't envision them.

24 posted on 11/22/2008 2:51:53 AM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: Bob J; Jim Robinson; Neil E. Wright
"If the problem is the ACLU and the NLG, why not just target them?"

Surprisingly, you're thinking small. It's not about going head to head with the ACLU, it's about forming a similar organization that will go head to head against law, regulations, restrictions that are contrary to the Founding Fathers INTENT.

Get the money; build the organization; inform the populace why the INTENT is best for them. Yup easier said than done. Unfortunately, I see this as our last best hope. Political parties serve themselves. We may still have the courts to work with.

Bob, you are a bright, informed, connected man. It's people like you that could talk with fed-up Constitutional politicians and build a program. I don't know what your particular issues are nowadays and don't particularly care, but we are losing our Republic exponentially.

If you don't agree with that than no problem. Maybe I'm over-stating things and we can agree to disagree.

However, we will still have to watch our Great Experiment in self-government slowly slip away before our eyes. I'll be okay because I have a wonderful wife and cute little rat dog that gives me joy every day. Maybe some day when we're old and feeble we can reminence about all the times we tried.

End rant. Take care.

25 posted on 11/22/2008 3:14:26 AM PST by A Navy Vet (In perpetuum sacramentum : An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

Well, as a practicing lawyer, you have a great attitude as a potential client, and if you find anyone with money who wants to do anything in Oregon, Washington or California, where I am licensed, let me know.


26 posted on 11/22/2008 2:40:13 PM PST by Buchal ("Two wings of the same bird of prey . . .")
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To: Buchal

I have tried to stir things up locally. I tried to get the immigration activists to find a contractor who lost a bid because of a competitor using illegals, to sue for unfair competition. No interest. I tried to get the farmers down in the Klamath Basin to challenge various violations of law associated with the enviro takeover. No interest, though I did a few cases pro bono publico. I have tried to get people interested in suing on salmon harvest for years, as the fishermen/enviros shut down logging, power production, and everything else. No one had the courage to bring a suit that would go against the Tribes. On the whole, I see almost no one with your point of view.


27 posted on 11/22/2008 2:43:31 PM PST by Buchal ("Two wings of the same bird of prey . . .")
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To: A Navy Vet
Like many of the post-election solutions offered here and elsewhere, people are putting the cart before the horse. You can't force change on people, they have to desire it or you become no better than hundreds of dictators and regimes who throughout history have ended up doing vast moreharm to their people than good.

Want to change the country? All you have to do is change the hearts and minds of the people, the voters. In that respect we have been behind the eight ball for 40 years as the right has ceded more and more of the institutional apparatus and vehicles that bring influence thinking and opinion.

I'm surprised after all we've been through you do not know "my issue", but here it is again for old times sake.

Quick Summary

...and here...

Better...

28 posted on 11/23/2008 10:38:52 AM PST by Bob J
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