A sad story for all involved.
Just how long does it take to determine that a shotgun is loaded? 
....they had to call in the experts at CSI?
Posted on 11/21/2008 7:06:27 AM PST by Born Conservative
SNYDERSVILLE (PA) — A 75-year-old man is in surgery in Lehigh Valley Hospital after being shot five times during an armed confrontation with state police in his residence.
Police were called to 4103 Manor Drive shortly after midnight for a report of shots fired. They talked to Hagen's roommate, whose name has not been released, and were told Hagen was recently diagnosed with dementia and displayed erratic behavior during the past few days.
Hagen was in his bedroom with the door closed. Police said they could hear him calling out different names. Police knocked on the door and entered cautiously. They saw Hagen holding a shotgun so they rushed his roommate out of the residence.
Police retreated to a safe spot and called to Hagen to drop his weapon and come out. He came out of the room but was still holding his shotgun. Police again told him to drop it but Hagen instead pointed the gun at two of the troopers.
Police began firing, dispensing 11 shots which hit Hagen in the leg, arm, hand, head and shoulder. Hagen did not fire his weapon.
Hagen was flown to the hospital shortly after 1 a.m.
The two troopers who fired on him are William Skotleski and Todd Tolan. A third officer, Cpl. Thomas Hothouse, was also at the scene. The officers have been placed on desk duty until an investigation into the shooting is complete.
"A shooting involving police is extremely unusual. The use of deadly force is justified when officers believe they or someone else is in jeopardy," said Capt. James Murtin of the state police.
Police are checking to see if Hagen's shotgun was loaded. A hand gun found in his bedroom was loaded, police said.
Sux, but can't really fault the cops.
Yeah those shotguns are difficult to determine.
BUll sh=t, They knew that he was sick and they pushed the issue, damn fools. He would have went to sleep sooner are later.
And if they used Tasers and the old guy died of a heart attack they'd be criticized for that.
Sad all around. The guy was apparently not in his right mind, and the troopers were probably justified shooting, being that they had a shotgun pointed at them.
Having dealt professionally with patients with Dementia, I can tell you that had the Police not taken action with this man, he easily could have started taking pot shots out the window.
Agitated patients DO NOT just fall asleep. It’s not a bit of confusion, the brain synapses are misfiring. Like a patient on PCP it has to do with the brain, not just the body. Immediate action must be taken.
It’s a horrible pity that his man was killed but his roomate should have taken the guns out of his way as soon as he was diagnosed.
Poor fellow is another victim of the leftist mantra “Mental illness is just like any other illness”. We really need to completely overhaul how our legal system deals with mental illness, and start by throwing out that utterly false claim.
A doctor who diagnoses a new or worsened mental illness should have a court system to turn to, so that the patient will get a prompt, confidential hearing BEFORE s/he does something that seriously endangers him/herself or others. The court and social services can then make a formal determination as to whether the person needs to have a legal guardian appointed, and if so, whether there are any family members able and willing to take on that responsibility. When someone’s mind has gone kaput, just sending them home with a prescription and maybe an appointment to see another doctor or a social worker, is not a reasonable move.
Your mentality is beyond foolish.
Yes, it has always confounded me that people whom “everyone knows” is mentally ill are allowed to roam free until they hurt themselves or others.
This article says he’s in surgery. Did I miss an update?
shotgun + dementia = potential for death. They did the right thing; you don’t “sleep off” dementia.
Unless you've seen some information more up to date than this article, he wasn't killed, he's "in surgery".
The point of my previous post is that their currently isn't any legal mechanism through which your common sense suggestion could have been carried out in a timely manner. I have a half-sister who has advanced schizophrenia which has never been treated. My father and half-brother have made extensive efforts to get her forced into treatment (she has been living in a makeshift tent near the Texas-Mexico border for many years, and is constantly in and out of jail for stuf like "drunk and disorderly", possession of marijuana, etc.). They finally managed to get a court to order an involuntary psych exam, which naturally found that she was schizophrenic. However, neither the doctor nor the court is formally allowed to tell this to either my father or brother (the court did so informally and probably technically illegally), and my father's/brother's hope that with the diagnosis they could get her declared eligible for Social Security disability was also dashed -- the Texas court explained to them that it is illegal for the court (or the doctor) to tell the federal government that she has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, without her permission, because that would violate her "privacy rights". Needless to say, she doesn't believe she's mentally ill, and so isn't going to give any court or doctor permission to tell the federal government that she is.
This man's roommate was not legally entitled to be told that the man had been diagnosed with a mental illness, and it's quite likely that the man didn't share the formal diagnosis with his roommate. The roommate therefore had no legal basis with which to go to a court and demand that the man's guns (or better yet, the man) be taken away. It's doubtful that a court had been informed of the diagnosis either -- it usually takes an incident like this, in which police are summoned and the person commits a criminal act, before a court gets involved and either requires a court-ordered psych exam or subpoenas records from a doctor who previously performed a psych exam. Without such an incident, a court has no legal right to demand a formal psych evaluation or to take someone's guns away.
Whoops!
Now where did I put my “reading comprehension” glasses.....
“Police again told him to drop it but Hagen instead pointed the gun at two of the troopers.”
Part of the problem is, unlike years-gone-by, when a LEO states that someone pointed a gun at them it’s not automatically believed. Too often in the past they have made things up to cover their a$$. Sadly, abuses on the part of law enforcement in the past, has put themselves and us into this environment.
Much of this mistrust could be eliminated if the cops would wear body-cams. For some reason they resist this though.
thank you very much, ACLU. confining people who do not want to be confined is pretty much impossible unless thay have broken significant laws.
Often they’re allowed to continue to roam free even after hurting themselves or others. The legal standard is whether they “pose an IMMINENT danger to themself or others”.
There was a crack addict in NYC some years ago, who had a habit of grabbing little tots out of strollers on the sidewalk, and tossing them into traffic. He kept getting arrested for this, and kept getting put back out on the street by the idiot judge, who noted that the defendant before her (judge was a her, IIRC) was behaving normally and therefore didn’t meet the test of posing an imminent danger to himself or others, and so couldn’t be detained against his will on mental health grounds. Of course, the reason he behaved normally in court is because he hadn’t been given his usual fix of crack while in jail awaiting his hearing. And of course, the first thing he did every time he was let out, was go smoke some crack.
what’s your point?
Police were called to the scene because of a report of shots already being fired. That was not a water pistol or a potato gun that made those sounds. Police do not carry around shotguns that they can plant on suspects. A small handgun, in some circumstances it has happened. A shotgun, no.
Honestly, I’m not saying legally seize his guns.
I am saying lock them up.
If the roomate was living with the man, and was signed in to be notified on health issues (as many people living together are) this roomate knew the diagnosis. Otherwise how could the roomate tell the police of the recent diagnosis.
The problem with most mental patients is they are diagnosed in adulthood and sign to give health notification to another person. Most will not. Just like your Half-sister.
It makes it very difficult for the family, who watch a person destroy themselves and can do nothing about it. However, you can work with the doctor. He cannot disclose that she is diagnosed but everyone knows it. Tell him that she will not go on SS and he may be able to get her to come around.
Many time the right medication can help a lot. Haldol or Prolixin in a depo will keep her mentally clear for a month. And that is your time to talk to her.
Let’s just hope you didn’t get them mixed up with your crystal ball glasses.
Rich’s Undeniable Truth of the Day: Senile and heavily armed is a bad combination.
What a nut ball statement, cops back off sooner are later the man will need to rest. Damn they left you are out of the common sense department, just like the cops. Who in the world said you sleep off dementia. LOL
Sure if you see an old man or woman that has mental health problems and there is a shotgun around SHOOT THIER ASS DEAD! That resolves everything! Why are these old people taking so long to die? You guys will be old one day and helpless. Want the same for yourself?
The POLICE SHOULD HAVE SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR HELP!
The old fellow was sick,the cops knew it,they forced the situation.
People don't realize the cops are trained and told to "take charge" immediately and "resolve the situation";they rarely take time to let things just cool down.
But if the actor in a situation is a celebrity the police will clear the area ,back off, and wait him out.Funny how that works.
HOW MANY POLICE DOES IT TAKE TO SHOOT DOWN
AND OLD 75 YEAR OLD MAN WITH DEMICHA?
ANSWER: IN THIS CASE “THREE” CASE CLOSED!
How are either of these going to REASON with someone who is demented and has a shotgun?
They know how many of them it would put in jail!!!
So some PA state troopers fired 11 shots at a 75 year old man with a shotgun and they did not kill him?
That would worry me...
What if he were trying to kill them and firing back?
They need some serious re-training.
I have to wonder why they can't use a tranquilizer gun on him. I don't understand why all the shootouts by SWAT anymore. Yes like someone here said, he was mentally ill and when he was found to be so, his roommate should have taken his gun away. However some people are not always that bright. Now he is mentally ill with a gun shooting at God knows what. Would it kill the police to treat him as such? (no pun intended) Can we come up with other means of dealing with mentally ill people other than blowing them away with the SWAT team? The SWAT Team is for terrorist, not 75 year olds that are off their rockers!
Damn fool, nothing, but nothing can stand in the way of the donut run!!!!
A sad story for all involved.
Just how long does it take to determine that a shotgun is loaded? ....they had to call in the experts at CSI?
She refuses any treatment or medication. Had to be forcibly hauled in by police for the one psych exam that the court ordered. Bottom line is she has to try to kill someone, or lie down in the middle of a highway or something, before any court will force her to do anything she doesn’t want to do. “Going on SS” only means getting a check — which we obviously don’t want HER getting (she’d blow it on beer and marijuana if she didn’t lose the check or have it stolen before she got around to cashing it).
It’s of little use if she isn’t being forced into some sort of treatment program. My father can afford to rent her an apartment or buy her a little trailer home, but she refuses to stay anywhere but her makeshift shelter (cardboard boxes and tarps, etc, apparently either on public land or private land where the owner doesn’t care to bring trespassing charges), so it would just end up being occupied by squatting deadbeats/illegals/meth-heads, etc, creating all sorts of liability problems for my father. Plus she’s in Texas and my father and brother both live in Pennsylvania, so it’s not like they can be involved on a day to day basis (and Dad’s 85 now). I’m sure if one of them moved to Texas to try to deal with her more intensively, she’d just get angry and relocate to parts unknown.
>>Let’s just hope you didn’t get them mixed up with your crystal ball glasses.<<
I’ve got to get me some of those!!!
I’m so sorry.
I have had to speak with parents of adult children that could do nothing for them.
It’s very sad. Sometimes people don’t realize how tough a family has it.
You just have to deal with changing behavior as it develops and try and jump ahead of the next surprise.
Given that we're probably living longer than nature intended, these kinds of situations are only going to be more commonplace.
Good point.
He was shot five times and is recovering?
At least some kid’s grandpa is still alive.
OK, fair enough.
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