"20 Billion for them .... and 1 Billion for us - without accountability."
Posted on 12/01/2008 3:19:15 AM PST by REPANDPROUDOFIT
If the $25 Billion Automakers/UAW bailout is approved, two things need to happen:
1)Require full public disclosure of the health care package that is enjoyed by the UAW's 780,000 retirees. They keep these benefits FOR LIFE. No Medicare for them at age 65. They get health, prescription drug, dental, vision and hearing benefits; again, FOR LIFE. Is it any wonder the UAW needs supplemental funds? I think the American people would riot if they saw what our money is buying. The unions insist that these benefits cannot be taken away because they won them in contracts with the auto makers. The Rolls Royce version of health insurance remained acceptable as long as the company/union was paying for it. When I start paying for it, it is time to bring it down to reality.
2)Structure the bailout in such a way as to encourage people to buy American-made cars! This could be done in the form of generous tax cuts. People are going to continue to need new cars. But, fewer and fewer people are going to buy a car from a company that is only in business because the government pays part of its bills? That is one purchase where you want your manufacturer to be around for a few years! Instead of a handout, give a generous tax break ($5000, $8000, $12000 over a four or five year period) to purchasers of NEW American-made cars. The car companies would enjoy increased sales and the public would get something for their money! They talk about all the "cottage industries" that depend on the auto makers survival. This way you help all of them, not just the big guys. If the companies fail to change their ways and do not use the money wisely, that is their problem, NOT OURS!
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
I want a Cadillac and I want Kate Walsh thrown in for good measure.
780,000 retirees!!!Note also, that number does not include the dependents.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2127523/posts
Don ‘t give money away to individuals or organizations! Bailing out either only advances socialism!
If you are going to buy that Cadillac, wouldn’t you like to have a $10,000 tax break as a reward? It sure beats just handing over $25 billion so the retirees can have their gold plated health care plan. I say use the money to stimulate sales, not to forego the inevitable return for another handout.
Not if..When they do the bailout. This proposal baloney is just window dressing. The Crats want to socialize the auto industry.
You and I both know that Congress fully intends to give them the money. Then they will give them more and more on a regular basis. Right now they are just letting the public cool down and forget how offensive this is (note the "popular keywords" on the FR News page - no more "auto bailout") If money is to be handed out, at least I offer a more acceptable plan.
That would be about a hundred dollars per person. They have some sort of Detroit car which can be bought for a hundred bucks?? I mean, that’s pretty much the whole problem: Detroit has priced its products outside the reach of the American people and now want those same people to pay for the privilege.
How many 2009 Corvettes will $25 Billion buy?
Here's a piece of news for the UAW. One of the things a company can do in Chapter 11 is disaffirm contracts. This usually means the contracts get renegotiated under threat of disaffirmance. There is no such thing as a contract etched in stone.
"20 Billion for them .... and 1 Billion for us - without accountability."
Silliness.
Does nothing to fix the problem. Just pushes it down the road. You don’t put a band aid on cancer.
Who said anything about "a hundred dollars per person"? I said give the tax break directly to people who purchase American Made Cars, not to every American. Big difference!
The “proposal” also gives the American public time to cool off. Congress recognized that we were ready for a fight.
Are you also proposing to give us all the money needed to keep the heaps of crap that are UAW-built cars going once they get to four years and one day old?
Buying American cars still would not solve the overall problem. It would be just as temporary a fix as giving the money to the auto companies. With the added legacy costs to each vehicle and the poor management, sadly, the US automakers are finished.
They would have to be able to sell cars for far more than they are worth, which would be an uncompetitive price and they would go belly up. Other than that, they will need a complete restructuring from CEO to line-worker, update equipment and ditch the unions. I do not see that happening. So, the Rats will front them the money, to appear as heroes to the UAW, therefore preserving a large power base for themselves and as you said they will be back begging for more in short order.
Don't you think we deserve to at least be told what kind of health care plan they have? What exactly is it that taxpayers' money will be funding? Is it the "Cadillac" of health plans?
If only we had seen such moral outrage when the fat cats on Wall Street were getting theirs.
I live in Detroit. My father-in-law is retired from GM. Their “rolls royce” benefit package has been reduced a few times already in the past few years.
Trust me. If they were living as high and mighty as some seem to think, they’d be living at the Villages without a worry. My guess is that their benfits are on par (or below) than people their age who also worked over three decades for the same company. And lets not even talk about a public school teacher with those kind of years!!
BUT....I too am opposed to the bailout of GM. And as worried as they are, so are they. Why? Because conservatives live by principle, even when it hurts.
What bothers me is that everyone was suckered into the Wall Street bailout without hardly a wimper. Go read my posts back in September. Many of us on FR knew we were getting screwed and said so....screamed so!! We also knew McCain lost the election right then and there.
Face it. The big damage has been done regardless if the “Big 3” get their bailout.
I never pretended to think it would solve the overall problem.
Congress intends to give them the money. It sounds like you would just as soon hand it over to the UAW and Automakers - why bother giving it to people to buy cars instead?
If it is going to happen, I prefer the latter.
“BUY American and YOUR NEXT VEHICLE FROM GM, FORD OR CHRYSLER.”
Many of which are actually built in Canada, Mexico, Europe or Asia, while many of the “foreign” brands are actually made here in the US.
You are asking us to also encourage their long-standing culture of “screw the consumer, they won’t know any better” and endorse failure with our dollars.
Hm. How about “no.”
I have done some research on the UAW's health care plan for retirees. It sounds like a pretty rich plan to me and I have read in several places that it is for LIFE! Do you agree that, if the bailout is to be used (even in part) to pay the retirees health benefits, then the public deserves a full and open description of that plan?
Tax credits are always nice when you get them, but our spiraling federal debt is going to come back to bite us. Printing more money will just devalue the dollar. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, out of control entitlement spending, and previous stimulus packages have almost bankrupted the good old USA. We need to get spending under control NOW.
The benefits Honda and Toyota workers get in Japan are significantly more generous than their American counterparts.
Way too much horsepower and upkeep for you! Better just put a new paint job on the older model(s) you have.
Sure. I’ve got no problem with that. I think it would be a good thing. If nothing else, to send a message to the UAW that this isn’t a free lunch.
Like I said, I’m against the bailout. I’m a believer in a free economy.
What I’d rather see is the gov’t do something about all the Asian theft of American innovation, and patents. This and the one-sided trade is what has killed us (in addition to the corrupt unions).
At least Japan is getting a taste of its own medicine now with China.
I am saying, if there is a bailout, give it to the people as tax breaks, not directly to the car companies/UAW!
“free economy”....meant to write “free market economy”
Yeah, but under your proposal, you are asking people to support the Big Three, as they are, with no fixes. You are encouraging them to support the *real* culture of corruption there.
That’s as bad if not worse.
The new conservative always finds “better” ways for the government to dole out stolen funds. Conservatives used to flat out oppose this sort of depravity. Heaven help us.
Exactly. Funny that so many people supported the bailout for Wall Street and the financial services companies (banks, AIG, etc). IMHO, the financial services industry has been a total disaster. They have managed to fritter away countless billions on Rube-Goldberg like financial schemes—in the process they have paid themselves big bonuses while encouraging practices (like outsourcing) that have cost the rest of us dearly. Also, when a bank or insurance company fails, there is always another [American company] ready to step in to fill the vacuum.
Not so with the Big Three, at least as far as American companies are concerned. Once they are gone, they are gone for good. Lots of FReepers luv to criticize the Big Three Auto makers. But if GM, Ford, & Chrysler did their jobs as poorly as Wall Street & the banks, we’d all be driving the equivalent of Pintos that cost $50K, get 10 MPG, leak oil, have a service life of 24K miles, and regularly explode without warning, killing the occupants.
Need I remind you that there were a lot of inventions that US companies wouldn’t touch that Japanese ones snapped up, paid for the rights to, and then made trillions off of?
“Japan stole our patents” is one of the oldest and least fact based old canards out there.
Congratulations, you’ve just described the Ford F-150.
(Not me, not my kid, not my truck.)
I know it’s been overstated. But it did happen to an extent. And it is still happening with China, and not just in the auto industry.
Go buy a $400 tool from harborfreight (Chinese import) and take a gander at the owner’s manual. It’s obvious the thing has been simply reversed engineered.
Since my car is on it’s last legs and in the shop as we speak, I’m in the market for another.
What incentives should I look for? RIght now I can say it’s looking at a Toyota, Honda or other non-union shop to support. I’m giving enough support through this bailout crap to the other places.
Buying American cars is part of the problem. People are buying Toyotas, Hondas, BMWs, Mazdas, etc., that are built in 40 factories scattered across the USA. Those Toyota Camrys, Honda Accords, and Toyota Tundras you see rolling down the road are far more American than my Ford, which is made in Canada and Mexico.
There is going to be a bailout. I have not doubt of that. Do I hate that, yes! I am just saying the American people deserve to get something for that money, not just give it to them free and clear. Lesser of two evils I guess!
Yeah, in initial quality... but they do not hold up in the long term. If they did, why won’t they match the time component of the Hyundai warranty?
Oh, and about that safest thing? Yeah, they got it for what, three cars? Out of a 50 vehicle lineup? Whereas pretty much every Honda model made the list? Yeah, Ford’s got some work to do there...
What are you in the market for and how long do you plan to keep it?
Why should should $25 billion be given to anyone? All you're doing is trying to negotiate whether the burglar enters your house through a window or the back door.
You will when our health system is overhauled, but that's going to be the topic of many another thread.
The Dem Congress would just raise taxes to take it away anyway.
No bailouts, no “incentives” to support the Dying Three.
I’d take it with a smile as long as they called it a retro active tax break and back payment for all the misery and suffering they have caused. :)
Look more closely at some of those Chinese import tools. They actually licensed the patent on them, or the patent has long since expired.
Patents *do* eventually expire, you know.
And US industry isn’t exactly innocent, either. Heck, Chrysler copied the VW Rabbit to make the Dodge Omni - only to hire VW to fix the problems with the design that Chrysler had created in the copying process.
Exactly my point! People are still going to need/buy new cars. Who do you think they will buy from? Well, let's see. Will they choose an American automaker (the bailout bozos) who may go bankrupt next year or will they choose a foreign manufacturer (non union by the way).
There needs to be an incentive to make them choose the Bozos. And, yes, it will need to be a darn good incentive.
Tax breaks are far better than just handing over a blank check.
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