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'US CITIZEN' AND 'NATURAL BORN CITIZEN' ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE
ireport.com ^

Posted on 12/11/2008 8:20:46 AM PST by ckilmer

'US CITIZEN' AND 'NATURAL BORN CITIZEN' ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE

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SEPERATING THE FACTS FROM THE FICTION REGARDING LEO DONOFRIO AND SCOTUS LAWSUIT "WROTNOWSKI V. BYSIEWICZ". WHY THE ISSUES RAISED ARE LEGITIMATE AND FAR FROM THE FRIVILOUS NATURE OF OTHER LEGAL EFFORTS.

The following was initially written as a generic Editorial Reply to the large number of incorrect Editorials and articles I have read in various publications regarding the Supreme Court cases commonly referred to as Wrotnowski v. Bysiewicz and Donofrio v. Wells.
I, as any American should, place my faith and loyalty in our Founding Fathers and the Constitution first and our elected and government officials a distant second. We are a Nation of laws and no individual is above the law - not even the President; not even the president-elect.

It is shameful that various news organizations which are allegedly in the business of collecting, verifying and reporting facts attempt to dismiss those of us concerned with Barrack Obama's citizenship status as a lying, unprincipled - even delusional - lot. Admittedly there is, in fact, a fringe element involved in the Obama citizenship issue.

Rather than separating the facts from the fiction, so-called news organizations have instead chosen to further confuse and mislead the public. In effect, many news organization's official editorial positions are no better than the fringe element they attempt to dismiss, often by name calling.

For reasons unbeknownst to me, the fringe element has caught the attention and imagination of mainstream media, while those forwarding factual, legitimate concerns have been obscured and mitigated.

Two such factual, legitimate efforts are the lawsuits filed by New Jersey's Leo Donofrio and Connecticut's Cort Wrotnowski. The fact that three Presidential candidates could get this far into the National Election without being properly exposed is prima fascia evidence that the dominance of the two-party system has been pervasively damaging to our Constitutional Republic. Additionally, there has been extreme confusion; some would say ignorance, pertaining to the differences inherent between being a 'citizen' and a 'natural born citizen'.

Mr. Donofrio, the attorney that filed Donofrio v. Wells with the Supreme Court, filed his initial lawsuit in NJ Appellate Court on October 27th, 2008. This came a month after Donofrio made his initial inquiry to the New Jersey Secretary of the State, Virginia Wells, as to why she had certified the New Jersey ballot which included Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero. Though Mr. Calero had no reasonable chance of winning the election, Mr. Calero has made no secret that he was born in Nicaragua, to two non-United States nationals. In other words, Roger Calero, by his own admission has no business being on the NJ ballot.

Mr. Donofrio had taken note of Calero's inclusion on the non-certified sample ballot that the NJ SOTS had published so that voters could familiarize themselves with it prior to certification. Donofrio called the NJ SOTS office and inquired into what verification process used to vet the Constitutional eligibility of Presidential candidates before publishing and certifying the ballots. The NJ SOTS office admitted that it relied on the various political parties to verify eligibility before submitting the candidacy affidavits, meaning the NJ SOTS doesn't do ANYTHING to independently verify candidate eligibility. Mr. Donofrio, a lawyer, rightly chose to challenge this revelation in court.

During the research he did before filing his initial case, it became apparent to Mr. Donofrio that not only is Mr. Calero Constitutionally ineligible, but so are Mr. Obama and Senator McCain. Why? How could this be the case? Here is the relevant passage from Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution:
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

The key phrase here is "or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President". The Founding Fathers included this phrase because virtually everyone was a British Subject at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. In other words, the passage serves as a grandfather clause conferring 'natural born citizen' status to those who were ALIVE at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

No where else in the Constitution does the phrase 'natural born citizen' appear. The Founding Fathers were very leery of a person with multiple allegiances becoming the Chief Executive and Commander in Chief of the United States. The only way to ensure this would not happen was to require something else that no other office in this country required . . . the status that our President be a 'natural born citizen'. That is, someone who at birth could claim only one allegiance. Thus a 'natural born citizen' is not the same as being a US born citizen. They are not an interchangeable terms of status.

Mr. Donofrio's research revealed that no other President in the history of the United States was born to anything other than two United States citizens and on United States soil, except Chester A. Arthur and history shows he lied and misled his peers and the newspapers of the time about his Father's naturalization. In other words, Chester Arthur intentionally and successfully concealed the fact that he was not born to two US citizen parents. Arthur's mother was a US citizen; his father was a British subject . . . sound familiar?

Mr. Donofrio's and Mr. Wrotnowski's cases acknowledge the fact that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii. But Mr. Obama acknowledges on his very own website, FighttheSmears.org that he was born to one US Citizen Parent and one British Citizen Parent. Thus Mr. Obama was born with a dual allegiance and has never been, and can never be a 'natural born citizen'. Mr. Obama and the Democratic Party have knowingly deceived the public and avoided the fact that he is not legally qualified to serve as President. One must assume that Mr. Obama, a Constitutional scholar, has gone to great lengths to avoid the claim that he is a "natural born citizen". On the FightTheSmears.org website, Mr. Obama states that he is a "native born citizen", which, of course, is NOT the same as being a "natural born citizen". The term 'native born citizen' does not appear in Article II.

As you can now see, the concern that I share with millions of others who support the efforts of Mr. Donofrio and Mr. Wrotnowski has NOTHING TO DO WITH A BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

It is true that December 8th, the Supreme Court of the United States denied Donofrio v. Wells without comment however, that very same day the Honorable Justice Antonin Scalia submitted Wrontowski v Bysiewicz to be Distributed for Conference this Friday, December 12, 2008. Mr. Donofrio worked with Mr. Wrotnowski and authored the formal filing with SCOTUS. Donofrio v Wells had some unsettled judicial misconduct issues that raised scrutiny questions if the Justices had elected to take that case on. Wrotnowski v. Bysiewicz has a pristine history in its ascension through the courts.

Think about that for a moment folks . . . Donofrio v Wells was dismissed without comment, later that very same day Justice Scalia, the champion of Originalism, distributes Wrotnowski v Bysiewicz - a similar yet stronger case. If Scalia felt that Wrotnowski v. Bysiewicz didn't have merit, he wouldn't have wasted the court's time by submitting it for Conference this Friday.

Mr. Obama if finally pressed into defending his qualifications will likely resort to citing the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The problem is the 14th Amendment dealt with equal application of the law to United States Nationals and has no relevance to the specified qualifications needed to serve as President of the United States.

Based on a literal reading of Article II and the historical context of the birth right of 43 preceding Presidents, Chester A. Arthur notwithstanding, it is clear that Barrack Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen and thus has no legal claim to take the Oath of office. To allow him to do so would be a farce and undoubtedly ignite an endless series of litigation challenging his legitimacy.

NOTES REGARDING THE CONSPIRACY CASES:
Though very little, there is merit to some of the birth certificate claims. Admittedly folks like Andy Martin and Phil Berg appear to have some mental issues.

Hawaiian law most definitely allows foreign births to have a certificate filed:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

There is also a place on the Hawaiian vault birth certificate to enter data for Hospital, Doctor and "Evidence for delayed filing or alteration".

In light of the ambiguous information that Obama has released and the fact that he unreasonably refuses to allow public inspection of his vault copy certificate it does reasonably raise and beg the question "why not?"

That said, the issues surrounding his birth certificate are irrelevant because of all the reasons I have stated above - Barrack Obama is a US Citizen, but he is NOT a 'natural born citizen' and thus has no authority to assume the office of the President.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 911truthers; birthcertificate; blackhelicopters; certifigate; conspiracytheories; conspiracytheory; obama; obamatruthfile; scotus; tinfoilhats
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To: ctdonath2
Flip side: there is nothing in law saying someone is qualified to be POTUS given a non-citizen parent.

There is nothing in the law that says someone with red hair is qualified to be POTUS, either. We can't add extra requirements that aren't in the COTUS.

There’s enough confusion that it’s time for the Supreme Court to weigh in.

I agree. I think that this issue needs to be resolved, one way or the other. Especially since we're entering an era where many Americans have one or more parents who are note native-born American citizens. I'm a naturalized US citizen, but also a citizen of two other countries. My son, though born here in DC, is a citizen of the US, plus two other countries. There may be millions of Americans out there with similar statuses.

41 posted on 12/11/2008 12:48:27 PM PST by Citizen Blade (What would Ronald Reagan do?)
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To: ckilmer

A native born citizen is a natural born citizen.


42 posted on 12/11/2008 12:51:27 PM PST by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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To: allmendream
Thus your continued insistence that there is a difference that I am somehow not acknowledging is rather ludicrous.

And your definition is not the author's definition, nor mine.

That is what I have attempted to help you understand, but you clearly do not want to grasp.

It's no threat to acknowledge opposing viewpoints, which is what you're refusing to do.

You will remain completely confused about several of these lawsuits, as a result. But, I'm done trying to elucidate you.

Have a good day.

43 posted on 12/11/2008 1:23:36 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Thanks for the fyi... I already know about that thread because I was the one who posted it.

It looks like you have your own CoLB ping list, so when I ping LucyT & others with ping lists I’ll try to remember yours as well.


44 posted on 12/11/2008 1:27:19 PM PST by Kevmo (Palin/Hunter 2012)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Wow. On usconstittuion.net they use the EXACT SAME definition I do.

A U.S. citizen at birth is a “natural born citizen”, a U.S. citizen who was not a citizen at birth is a “naturalized citizen”.

I can acknowledge opposing viewpoints just fine, but your opposition is based on the mistaken notion that I am somehow not acknowledging that there is a difference between a “natural born” and a “naturalized” citizen, and I have kept them distinct, and defined them; correctly, from the beginning.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are “citizens of the United States at birth:”

Anyone born inside the United States
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.

45 posted on 12/11/2008 1:29:03 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed.... so how could it be Redistributed?)
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To: RegulatorCountry

Also you used the word elucidate incorrectly.


46 posted on 12/11/2008 1:38:36 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed.... so how could it be Redistributed?)
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To: arrogantsob
A native born citizen is not a natural born citizen anymore than a citizen of the USA is a natural born citizen of the USA. Article 2 wouldn't have had the reference to "natural born" if native born was all that mattered.

Washington, Adams, Jefferson et al were born in the colony of America under British rule and became citizens with the adoption of the Constitution. They feared for the future when, for example, a British subject born here in the US, might have dual loyalties, hence the strict language which makes it (natural born) -a unique requirement for the POTUS and Vice Potus.

Natural born, i.e., born in the USA to American citizens. McCain and Obama are both not natural born, unless the Supremes rule differently. Could go on but you'll find it all at www.naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com.

47 posted on 12/11/2008 2:12:14 PM PST by masadaman
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

A Message to our Electors:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sX7uuhHXs-0


48 posted on 12/11/2008 3:22:28 PM PST by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM)
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To: masadaman
"They feared for the future when, for example, a British subject born here in the US, might have dual loyalties,"

I've never seen any evidence in their words that they were concerned about that.

There is a great amount of evidence that they were concerned about immigrants gaining the office.

49 posted on 12/11/2008 3:45:25 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith

See the Jay letter to General Washington...


50 posted on 12/11/2008 4:48:45 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (No Burkas for my Grandaughters!)
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To: masadaman
In post 49 I said: "There is a great amount of evidence that they were concerned about immigrants gaining the office. "

My mistake: the comments I was thinking of were actually about foreign influence in the election, especially the re-election, of the President.

The Jay letter is the only direct comment on this AFAIK.

51 posted on 12/11/2008 4:49:21 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
The Jay letter doesn't address the point.

The overwhelming concern shown in the Constutional debates was that foreign influence of the new federal government would be by the traditional corrupt means.

The "natural born" citizenship of the President apparently needed no debate.

The author of this piece is basing his argument on the lack of passage of the "Equal Rights Amendment" by using the male- deliniated definitions used by the Founders. I got to admit it's a valid argument on it's face.

52 posted on 12/11/2008 5:13:19 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: LucyT

Thanks, LucyT

Appreciate you keeping me updated.

Save the Constitution Ping.


53 posted on 12/11/2008 7:58:08 PM PST by Iowan
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To: masadaman

A native born citizen is a natural born citizen though a natural born citizen may not be native born. Descent from citizens makes one natural born even if born in China. Mere geography makes one native born. One is either natural born or naturalized. McCain needed no naturalization since he was the child of US citizens making him natural born.

You point to the correct point but manage to miss it. Allegiance is the point of requiring natural born citizens be president. There is nothing which disrupts that allegiance in children of citizen agents of the government being born abroad. In fact, such an origin amplifies the allegiance required since the parents are serving at the behest of the nation. It is a total contradiction of the entire intention to declare children of ambassadors, FBI agents, even Congressmen, and military officers ineligible of a right the child of an illegal alien has.

Geography cannot stand against allegiance. None of the Founders were “native born” within the USA since it did not exist. And slaves and Indians would be native born after 1787 and therefore eligible. Hence the term Natural born.


54 posted on 12/13/2008 1:43:05 PM PST by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: ctdonath2

How old were you when she was born? That Obama’s mother was only 18 is what clouds his own issue.


56 posted on 12/20/2008 3:20:09 AM PST by autumnraine
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