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Ex-Aides Say Bush Never Recovered from Katrina
Ex-Aides quoted by Vanity Fair via Associated Press via Yahoo News ^ | 11/29/08

Posted on 12/29/2008 8:54:24 PM PST by marshmallow

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To: marshmallow

Dubya, as was typical for his entire two terms, failed to stand up and defend himself and was once again content to just sit there like a punching bag as he allowed the rats and their media allies to blame him for a frigging natural disaster! (/disgusted headshake).

Bush hammered all the nails into his own coffin and he will get exactly the “legacy” he deserves.

The GOP desperately needs to elect some fighters...


51 posted on 12/29/2008 10:06:04 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: repubpub

The allowance of any claimed refugee to vote should have been met with registration guidelines. Yea, i’m sure.


52 posted on 12/29/2008 10:10:44 PM PST by eyedigress
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To: sarasmom
What, exactly did the feds do wrong at the time? I know what the local and state government failed to do. What failure do you ascribe to the feds? Forgetting the omniscience of hindsight, and the primacy of responsibility of local and state agencies.

As I stated in the original post and you agreed with above, state and local authorities failed in numerous of their responsibilities. Once on scene to verify those failures, FEMA's execution of its responsibilities needed to be at a higher level in order avoid being seen as just another level of government that was not providing relief for those that were in need. I did not say that the feds "did wrong", only that their execution had "shortcomings" that allowed them to be perceived as part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

As far as "exactly" what was wrong, I would tend more towards the political part of the fed/FEMA approach and not the actual direct efforts that were made to alleviate suffering and begin recovery operations. By political, I mean making certain that every media outlet was fully briefed on the state/local responsibilities that were not executed and how the feds were trying to pick up that slack as well as execute on actual federal responsibiities.

Further on the political front, the "good job, Brownie" comment was either from a lack of knowledge or deliberate false reporting of situation status to the President. I will allow that it also may have come from Bush's Texas good-ole-boy approach to politics.

53 posted on 12/29/2008 10:15:28 PM PST by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: T-Bird45

The federal Gov’t has nothing to do with the peoples welfare. Got a problem call the cops or FBI. Good Luck.
The NWS advised them to leave, they didn’t. (How many folks got the answer to Camille in 48 hours?)


54 posted on 12/29/2008 10:22:43 PM PST by eyedigress
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To: marshmallow

bullshit


55 posted on 12/29/2008 10:23:34 PM PST by Gritty (The inbred instinct of a GOPer faced with a non-negotiable demand is split the difference-Wes Pruden)
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To: marshmallow

While the points made here by these aides are all wrong Katrina was indeed a tipping point but for different reasons than those stated. It was because Bush refused to defend himself just like Iraq. He should have played hardball with these dems. he would have taken heat for it but facts are facts and the facts were on his side.


56 posted on 12/29/2008 10:33:53 PM PST by plain talk
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To: CindyDawg
Hi Cindy,

You know,I do think Katrina may have been the turning south point for the President. That was when he realized that nothing was as it seemed.

As I recall he had appointed Brown,who received a lot of bad press. Several liberals in my family scoffed at his appointment since he had little experience in government emergencies at the onset.

However,I remember thinking that far worse than his inexperience was an emergency response agency (FEMA) that was subordinate to Homeland Security. That was one of the truly dumbest reporting arrangements in a government which is/was rife with cumbersome,overstaffed bureaucracies.

At first Bush praised Brown but I heard an interview with Brown early on where he said that he was unable to contact Chertoff until Monday (if it wasn't Monday,it was at least two days after FEMA had been ready to respond)and that had held them back. As you may remember,there were also problems with coordination with the city and the state and evacuation orders.

Since that corroborated my expectations of a response team that was supposed to react immediately but had to wiat for approval from another agency,I was not surprised to hear him say that.

Imagine my surprise to never hear that mentioned again as the country and the party viciously turned on Brown. I just thought to myself "something smells fishy in Denmark">. And it did and it was.

I think that's when Bush realized that he was just another pawn on the board. I felt sorry for him and only wish that he would have been smart enough initially to know that he really was not capable or interested in being President,he just believed what the handlers told him. He trusted his father.Too bad.

sara

57 posted on 12/29/2008 10:55:59 PM PST by saradippity
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To: AndrewB

Matthew Dowd is in actuality a Democrat. That’s part of the problem that Bush has.


58 posted on 12/29/2008 10:57:20 PM PST by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
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To this day, i’ll never understand what Bush was supposed to have done about a Hurricane that experts had feared for years. That is no place to have a major city thats below sea level....If they ever get a cat 5 at just the right angle at the mouth of the Mississippi River, i dont care who’s president...governor..mayor, theres not gonna be nothing left. Ignorant people laughed it off and stayed, and they paid. 10,000 cars were flooded and ruined in Katrina...hmmm...wonder what those cars could have been used for???. Nope, as soon as i saw all the black folk trudging up out of the water, i knew the media were gonna hang Bush for it....


59 posted on 12/29/2008 10:58:34 PM PST by basalt
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To: Cicero
While Nagin and the governor made some poor decisions I remember Brown saying,in a televised interview that he was unable to get in contact with Chertoff for several days and consequently was unable to respond immediately.

The reporting system,FEMA to Homeland Security,was a disaster waiting to happen,and it did.

60 posted on 12/29/2008 11:04:53 PM PST by saradippity
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To: Balata

“The problem is when the Dems came out in the aftermath and pinned this on Bush there were no Repubs that came out to counter these charges and put the blame back where it belonged directly on the Gov and Mayor.”

It all boils down to this White House having the worst communications effort I’ve ever seen from day 1. If ANY administration needed a “war room” to counteract liberal propaganda thrown at it, this was the one.


61 posted on 12/29/2008 11:05:50 PM PST by headstamp 2 (Been here before)
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To: flash2368

I call B.S.


62 posted on 12/29/2008 11:05:54 PM PST by bootless (Never Forget. Never Again. And NEVER GIVE UP!)
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To: Arizona Carolyn
Bush should have supported Brown and pointed the finger where it belonged. Michael Chertoff was out of contact for at least two days.
63 posted on 12/29/2008 11:08:06 PM PST by saradippity
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To: marshmallow
The constitution does not specify any role for the federal government in disaster relief. Therefore, Bush's response to Katrina was a "failure" only in that he did anything at all.

This kind of backwards thinking, universally employed by historians and presidential scholars, is why I truly despise the discipline of political science.
64 posted on 12/29/2008 11:10:03 PM PST by UncleDick (Sola fide)
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To: marshmallow
Katrina was a major propaganda victory for Dems. Bush didn't fail in his duty as President during this disaster but libs took advantage of their own incompetence during a disaster and turned it around on him. It really was maddeningly brilliant. And the saddest thing about it is that it worked.
65 posted on 12/29/2008 11:17:22 PM PST by TheThinker (Shame and guilt mongering is the Left's favorite tool of control.)
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To: TheThinker

They are (and have been) doing the same thing with Sarah Palin. Most people are stupid, if it doesn’t concern their new car or shopping this weekend they just don’t care. America is done...period. We will be just like any other 3rd world country in a few years. Obama being elected told me all I need to know about our future.


66 posted on 12/29/2008 11:22:12 PM PST by Snurple (VEGETARIAN, OLD INDIAN WORD FOR BAD HUNTER.)
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To: flash2368

Sell your BS elsewhere.


67 posted on 12/29/2008 11:27:40 PM PST by ApeStyle
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Your analysis is great if you are nuts ....Amnesty as you call it meant nothing to anyone but the hard core fringes on this board...
And the ungrateful bastards are getting the wall /fence they wanted and still they bitch and moan


68 posted on 12/29/2008 11:30:23 PM PST by woofie
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To: Aria

Here is what gets me about the Bush is dumb BS argument...Is GWs father dumb? is his mother dumb ? are all his brothers dumb? Is his wife dumb? no

It is absolutely absurd to think he comes from that group of people and is dumb .....I do think he hides behind a good old boy mask....but coming from Texas I can see where it comes in handy. In purely political terms Bush won more battles than he lost so I doubt his opponents really think he is dumb


69 posted on 12/29/2008 11:39:29 PM PST by woofie
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To: flash2368
Comments to me by people who work around him on a daily basis...

If this were true you would put a name to these "people", or hint at who "me" is. But of course you're just lying as you only wanted to fecklessly malign Geo. Bush.

And who is 'dumb as a box of rocks'? Bush, or those who choose to live below sea level?

70 posted on 12/29/2008 11:47:23 PM PST by jla (Sarah!)
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To: marshmallow

I believe Bush never recovered from some of his disloyal ex-aides.


71 posted on 12/29/2008 11:55:38 PM PST by DakotaRed (Don't you wish you had supported a conservative when you had the chance?)
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To: marshmallow
Bush should have fought back the liberal and media (but I repeat myself) mantra about how the feds screwed up the Katrina response.

Instead, he chose to accept the myth because of its pervasiveness. HUGE blunder...a symptom of his strategy to not fight back.

72 posted on 12/30/2008 12:39:57 AM PST by Recovering_Democrat
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To: FrankR
II would really like to have seen how obama would have handled it.

Fear not. You will witness Obama falling flat on his face in a similar or worse crisis. He will be the laughing stock of the world and will have nowhere to hide.

73 posted on 12/30/2008 12:41:19 AM PST by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: marshmallow

Katrina may have been bad for Bush on the national level, but in LA Blanco was replaced by Jindal and an even bigger surprise — William ‘cold cash’ Jefferson has been replaced in CD2 by Joseph Cao.

Yes, Nagin got reelected, but there is only so much that can be expected from a dependency city. No amount of MSM propaganda could hide the truth from the free people who lived thru it.


74 posted on 12/30/2008 12:54:42 AM PST by AndrewWalden (America is the greatest force for human progress in the world today.)
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To: headstamp 2
"If ANY administration needed a “war room” to counteract liberal propaganda thrown at it, this was the one."

Very, very true.

75 posted on 12/30/2008 1:17:32 AM PST by Irene Adler (')
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To: eyedigress
"I still have a hard copy of the Sunday release NWS forecast for New Orleans. It is harrowing. Lazy morons all."

80% of the city of New Orleans evacuated before the storm.


76 posted on 12/30/2008 2:07:57 AM PST by Mila
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To: marshmallow

It was horrible PR wise though. It was one of those moments where I said to people this was it- a defining moment, at least in the eyse of the press and the public. He has had the worst luck. Katrina, 9/11, housing crash etc.


77 posted on 12/30/2008 2:15:40 AM PST by PghBaldy (Obama showing off his crotch: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=550_1210277599)
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To: woofie

feast my my tagline, loser


78 posted on 12/30/2008 3:32:07 AM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Bushbot-ism: The depths of subjective idiocy & academic dishonesty among so-called "Conservatives")
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To: eyedigress
How many folks got the answer to Camille in 48 hours?)

I'm glad you brought up Camille for a little perspective on just how drastically catastrophic Camille was versus Katrina and how people responded to the two events, i.e., their vastly different expectations of what "aid" from 'big daddy gubment' meant.

I remember Camille vividly. Hurricane warnings came late - too late for some, and not at all for others. The amount of destruction was enormous. 70% of all taxable property in Pass Christian was lost; Plaquemines Parish in Louisiana was completely destroyed as were towns from Gulport to Biloxi and beyond. 27 miles of coast was scoured for several blocks inland, structures were just gone. Hundreds of bloated, drowned cattle floated in the bay, attracting sharks for weeks. Only one highway survived intact in Virginia; uprooted trees swept along by flashfloods acted as battering rams, taking out bridges and homes.

There was no Fema back then, but there was a Office of Emergency Preparedness, which coordinated some 25 agencies. Along the coast, initial assistance came mostly from the Red Cross shelters and DoD personnel stationed in the area, and neighbors helping each other. I remember the bridge between Ocean Springs and Biloxi ended up about half-a-mile out to sea, so the only way to get to Ocean Springs from Biloxi for many months was via a very crowded ferry. We were without electricity for at least two or three weeks and martial law prevailed (although there was very little looting). Noone expected special treatment.

I don't recall any bellyaching against the President during the aftermath of Camille - people pulled together and just dealt with it. In fact, the Only bellyaching I ever heard was against the Red Cross for charging cleanup volunteers 10cents for a lousy cup of hot coffee!

People received rebuilding loans (which, along with insurance, took months to get), but nobody was handing out free money for the asking and nobody expected it - one was expected to cash in their US savings bonds, and use their own savings - you got food, water, blankets, clothing and shoes, and a RedCross shelter cot if you needed a place to stay. A few lucky ones got government trailers once miles of roads were cleared; the rest of us just made do. I guess it was just a simpler, prouder, more self-reliant time back then.

best regards, blu

from: http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/about_us/meet_us/roger_pielke/camille/report.html
"The wide range of possible landfall locations greatly complicated preparation efforts. Figure 3 shows the forecast displacement errors. By official estimates, 81,000 out of 150,000 people in the evacuation area were moved to safety..."

"... messages coming from different sources led to dire consequences and likely resulted in many misinformed residents remaining in their homes when they should have evacuated...Wilkinson and Ross (1970) provides an example where a “highly emotional plea to get out" was being issued over Biloxi television Sunday, as a newscaster in New Orleans was reported to have read only the general forecast and then returned to broadcasting music. Another example from Wilkinson and Ross (1970) tells of an out-of-town radio station re-running earlier bulletins, even after new ones had been broadcast over another station. "
Storm waters rose to 22.6 feet at Pass Christian, 17 feet behind Pass Christian, 21.6 feet at Long Beach, 21 feet at Gulfport, 19.5 feet at Biloxi, and 15 feet on the Biloxi Bay (USACE 1970) (Figure 4).


"The Department of Defense contributed greatly to the relief process, with a total of 16,500 military personnel from numerous divisions (OEP 1969, p. 9)... Battalions cleared 575 miles of roads and removed more than 37,000 tons of debris (OEP 1969, p. 10).

"The Department of the Treasury responded quickly to the financial concerns and demands of the communities affected by the hurricane. Emergency offices, at a cost of $20,000 (1969 dollars), were established to disburse checks to those receiving rehabilitation loans. Through December 10, 1969, 75,000 checks were delivered, totaling $25 million (1969 dollars) in rehabilitation loans (OEP 1969, p. 5). "[BluNote: bear in mind, the hurricane occurred Aug 17th, so some waited up to 4 months for loans]

79 posted on 12/30/2008 4:55:39 AM PST by blueplum
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To: marshmallow
"Katrina to me was the tipping point," said Matthew Dowd, Bush's pollster and chief strategist for the 2004 presidential campaign.

It was a tipping point all right - it was the point where many of us saw the liberal Dubya come out. He caved to the left-wing media by coddling New Orleans, instead of standing up to the crybabies that whined about those "poor people" that decided to stay behind and loot while the wise ones got out of town.

80 posted on 12/30/2008 5:03:51 AM PST by meyer (We are all John Galt)
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To: JennysCool; All
This was emphatically NOT “Bush’s Fault

I respectfully disagree. Vehemently... It WAS Bush's fault... At NO point did he assign blame where it was deserved...

The entire Bush years can be summarized in this way...

1. Bush gets blamed for everything that goes

2. Bush says nothing in return... Doesn't challenge it. Cheney hides for cover. Other GOP leaders dissapear, including Frist.

3. Media picks up on the Dems lies and promotes them

4. The public believes these outrageous lies... After all, if they're repeated over and over, without being challenged, they must be accurate, right?

5. Repeat step 1... Until conservatives are viewed as evil, belicose monsters that don't care about the poor, and want tax cuts for the rich... Until they destroy the GOP party... Until anyone that dares to fight back- like DeLay, are pounded by the MSM, into submission...

Did I get that right?

81 posted on 12/30/2008 6:29:27 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: line drive to right

BINGO. I’ve been beating that drum for years. YEARS


82 posted on 12/30/2008 6:40:56 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: marshmallow

The bottom line is that Bush was very poor at defending himself, he let the media define him. Fairly or unfairly, that’s just the way it is.


83 posted on 12/30/2008 6:43:47 AM PST by dfwgator (I hate Illinois Marxists)
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To: hsrazorback1
Looks to me that GWB’s main downfall was hiring a bunch of no-talent, turncoat clowns.

In politics, EVERYBODY is a no-talent, turncoat clown.

84 posted on 12/30/2008 6:45:59 AM PST by dfwgator (I hate Illinois Marxists)
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To: Snurple
While I admire Palin... Her career, on a national level, is over... SNL, the MSM, and sadly, her less-than-stellar performances on Couric and Gibson, cemented her fate.

Looking to '12... McCain is gone for good... Romney may be too old... Rudy is pretty much done... FDT is kaput... Palin has been "Newt-ralized" by the MSM and SNL... Not looking all that good right now, IMHO.

85 posted on 12/30/2008 6:46:39 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
Fear not. You will witness Obama falling flat on his face in a similar or worse crisis. He will be the laughing stock of the world and will have nowhere to hide.

You MUST be joking... or delusional... Hasn't this election cycle taught you ANYTHING??? The MSM will hail all of his accomplishments... Even if they fail... He will be viewed as a great leader, and will easily coast to a 2nd term...

86 posted on 12/30/2008 6:48:40 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: dfwgator
The bottom line is that Bush was very poor at defending himself, he let the media define him

Exactly... When the Dems and Libs defined him, and the MSM reinforced it... and there was NO effective counter-attack.... The American people defined him as well... Hence, the 27% approval rating, and President H.

87 posted on 12/30/2008 6:50:52 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: flash2368

Bureaucrats?


88 posted on 12/30/2008 6:52:51 AM PST by lonestar
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To: marshmallow

Bush’s biggest failure was his reluctance to fight back against the RAT propaganda machine.


89 posted on 12/30/2008 7:03:26 AM PST by Fresh Wind (Hey, Obama! Where's my check?)
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Yes, I know. Sad isn’t it


90 posted on 12/30/2008 7:12:16 AM PST by mel (Obama- show me the BC)
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To: NYC Republican
Anyone as inexperienced as Barack Obama will screw up big-time and neither he nor the media will be able to cover it up. You can't cover for an idiot 100% of the time.

His most likely worst mistakes will be from inaction.

Past behavior is a very good indicator of future behavior. Barack Obama has a history of doing nothing when the chips are down.

Someone with no executive experience at any level will be paralyzed by the fear of doing the wrong thing. This man has never run a hotdog stand and it's not going to go unnoticed when he's got the most powerful executive job on Earth.

A decision maker of considerable experience can take conflicting advice from a variety of experienced people and then make a bold and decisive choice.

This man is a fraud and has no experience or history in making very difficult decisions which can affect not just the fate of the American people but the fate of the entire world.

Most of the soldiers in the U.S. military have no confidence in this man as Commander-in-Chief, and for good reason.

The media cannot cover for that kind of defective leadership.

You seem to give the media more credit for its massive power than it deserves. The entire newspaper business is in near collapse and TV ratings stink to high heaven.

The election has taught me the majority can be fooled during a campaign but being in power is a completely different problem.

The expectations for this jackass are so ridiculous, he can never meet them.

This man has seriously embraced failed economic theory his entire adult life which is an excellent indicator that A) He doesn't know how the real world works and B) He can't possibly be a success implementing what has been proven for a century not to work.

Further, he lied during his campaign as to his true intentions and his own personal history which is why nobody knows anything about him and even his supporters are holding their breath and crossing their fingers.

Just because a bunch of dumb-ass voters were fooled doesn't mean the man can deliver the Utopia he promises.

91 posted on 12/30/2008 7:15:28 AM PST by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: Fresh Wind

BINGO...


92 posted on 12/30/2008 7:54:41 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: marshmallow
Lawrence Wilkerson, top aide and later chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell, said that as a new president, Bush was like Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee whom critics said lacked knowledge about foreign affairs.

So what does this say for Obama who has less foreign policy experience than both Bush and Palin?

93 posted on 12/30/2008 8:14:28 AM PST by Proudcongal
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
You seem to give the media more credit for its massive power than it deserves

Please. Spare me... The MSM elected H. Plain and simple. They covered for him 24x7. They shape public perception... Whether it's 10 second news soundbites, newspaper headlines, consistent use of talking points on nearly all of the channels...

The MSM is more powerful today than ever in my lifetime, if only because they're more emboldened and brazen in their leftist support.

94 posted on 12/30/2008 8:20:40 AM PST by NYC Republican (This Too Shall Pass- in 8 years.. how much destruction will they create?)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
Great post! I have detected a marked change in 44's demeanor since he was elected. Now that he's receiving those detailed intel briefings, he's starting to get a grasp on what his life will be like for the next four years. The very nature of the security bubble enveloping him is giving him claustrophobia, as evidenced by his evading the press pool in Hawaii.

For 47 years, he has not had to make a decision that affects other peoples' lives, except for his family. In three weeks, he will be "The Decider" on decisions that put people in harm's way, and affect the security of our nation. Let us not forget that he never held any meetings in his subcommittee, as he spent over half of his Senatorial tenure on the campaign trail.

Thankfully, my years in the Army involved no combat. However, there were times when a situation could get very dicey if the wrong decision was made, such as directing a reserve force in exercises at a nuclear weapons site. I always selected the gunners of my Towed Vulcans, as I didn't want any mistakes with live 30mm rounds loaded to the breech. My other soldiers were air defenders, also with armed with live ammunition, who were forced into a distinctly unfamiliar role as infantrymen for several hours.

Thankfully, I spent four years at a school with an excellent ROTC program, and had hundreds of hours of small unit training, to include annual Spring Break camps at Fort Lewis. About half of my class eventually earned their jump wings, and a third wore Ranger tabs.

I apologize for digressing. I learned a great deal about leadership and decision making as a Platoon Leader, Battalion S-4, and Battery Commander. My future wife told me I aged at least 5 years during my 18 months as a BC. My response: only five? As much as I loved that job, it felt like ten. I can't begin to imagine what our Presidents go through on a daily basis.

This nation will rediscover what a bad, bad idea it is to elect a Senator to POTUS. Obama can no longer vote "present", or try to pass the buck. With every decision, he's going to anger one (or more) of his constituencies. Running a campaign is hardly sufficient experience for taking on the toughest job in the world.

Along the way, the new First Lady will not be able to bite her tongue, and she'll create firestorms of her own.

Obama fatigue will be in full force by June.

95 posted on 12/30/2008 8:53:03 AM PST by Night Hides Not (Don't blame me...I voted for Palin!)
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To: saradippity

If we really want to get accurate FEMA should never have been placed inside Homeland Security... and IMHO all that was accomplished with forming HLS was to create another level of bureaucracy and inefficiency and larger government.


96 posted on 12/30/2008 9:42:07 AM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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To: marshmallow
This is so obvious.

-Ex POWELL aides quote to VF mag

-AP Yahoo make it a news story.

I am not defending Bush but it is so obvious the AP/politico yahoo pimp for Obama, that they will do anything to show their bias and bash Buah.

Meanwhile the credit/ financial crisis continues.Things are heating up in Israel and obama golfs and whines about his privacy while his corruption of Chicago politics reigns with him looking like a messiah.

97 posted on 12/30/2008 11:14:27 AM PST by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: marshmallow
This is so obvious.

-Ex POWELL aides quote to VF mag

-AP Yahoo make it a news story.

I am not defending Bush but it is so obvious the AP/politico yahoo pimp for Obama, that they will do anything to show their bias and bash Bush.

Meanwhile the credit/ financial crisis continues.Things are heating up in Israel and obama golfs and whines about his privacy while his corruption of Chicago politics reigns with him looking like a messiah.

98 posted on 12/30/2008 11:17:40 AM PST by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: Arizona Carolyn; CindyDawg; Cicero
Yes, I agree completely with your entire post and said it to Cindy in post #57 and Cicero in post #60. I didn't repeat it in my comment to you because I had already said it twice.
99 posted on 12/30/2008 11:59:24 AM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity

I just found the two posts you referred to and it seems we are in agreement.


100 posted on 12/30/2008 12:18:57 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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