Posted on 01/05/2009 4:20:30 AM PST by Blueflag
Israel Rains Fire on Gaza, Vows No Let-Up in Assault
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Photos are captioned to imply Israeli airburst artillery shells over civilian areas are 'raining fire' on Gaza; but I do not recognize the ordinance, which look more like anti-missile flares dropped from an aircraft descending to the ground.
Inquiring FReepers want to catch Reuters in the act of misleading again, and then inform Fox news.
The top photo on this page http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475664,00.html may be especially misleading with the caption stating the arty set the building ablaze, since the building underneath the 'artillery shell' is fully involved in flames, with no evidence of a recent secondary explosion.
Any arty guys out there who can ID this?
I think they are naval star shells and artillery smoke shells.
That particular burst didn’t set the building on fire. It’s already well engaged with fire.
That was my guess. Flares to illuminate the scene. I guess they could start a fire, but urban renewal is needed in any case in the area.
I am with you, the slow descent of the ‘stars’ does not look like a munition designed to destroy or ignite something. And in the one photo, the ‘airburst’ is too high for proper effect ... unless of course the fuse was improperly set.
I have no background in arty, so I am looking for FReepers in the know to ‘splain these shots. Some of our pilots may know as well.
WP smoke round.
yeah, I saw that as well. My presumption is that we have an ignorant, biased Reuters reporter on the scene feeding dramatic photos to an unknowing NYU media grad at Fox News who posts the photos with the Reuters-suggested captions.
Perhaps. Makes sense.
WP I thought burns with a whiter ‘flame’ than these yellow ‘flames’ but I could be wrong.
Remembering that I don’t know squat about arty ... isn’t THE WORLD against the use of white phosphorous?
Admin - could you add the Military category to this post please? I forgot to do that when I posted it. Many thanks.
White P is the "MAN" holding the other phosporouses of color down.
Multiple warhead shells, like Cluster bombs for cannons controlled by a radar altimeter and set to go off a specific altitude vary similar to shells used in flak cannons during WWII.
Here’s another photo to help you discern.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6177,00.html#9_0
Clearly two are illumination flares on parachutes. The other I just don’t recognize.
Gotcha, but ... (remembering I know nuthin about arty) The smoke trails behind the ‘stars’ imply a slow descent through the atmosphere. Cluster bomblets don’t fall slowly or ‘burn’ in the air as they descend.
Am I off base here?
Just tryin’ to get to the bottom of it ... and burn Reuters of course.
One more to look at. Looks like it was improperly fused and exploded on or near the ground.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_6177_images/0103091236_M_010309_gaza5.jpg
Jan. 3: An explosion and illumination flares fired by Israeli forces are seen above the northern Gaza Strip from the Israeli side of the border with Gaza.
that was the caption under the photo you just linked...
Chemical racism of the first magnitude..........can't we all just get along?
Thanks Robe.
So smoke rounds can have impact, proximity and altimeter fuses like any arty round, I presume. IF the round bursts in the air, then smaller pieces ignite, emit smoke and tumble to the ground and continue to emit smoke until consumed.
I’ll now go do some research on smoke rounds and be back in a bit.
yes. THAT one is not the inflammatory caption (pun intended). The ones at the main foxnews.com site are the problem. The captions and titles speak of a ‘rain of fire’ that set a building ablaze.
If these are indeed smoke rounds, then the captions and titles are patently false and misleading.
BTW, the photo with the illumination flares PROPERLY ID’d does not ID the multiple smoke trails from the other ordinance.
Not white, but Yellow Phosphorous *IS* the largest demographic, and is CLEARLY underrepresented in the military.
We need to take action immediately to correct the injustice!
BTW, what is the carbon footprint of an invasion? ;-p
there is also the issue of size of fragments to consider, these shells appear to have the same number of fragments as opposed to a spraying of thousands of tiny pieces like you would find from WP, typically a white cloud of particles. in all directions
Aboard ship, we used star shells and flares to throw off IR seekers. Hamas probably has ground weapons that utilize infrared.
I think illumination shells...and maybe the other is a star cluster. I don’t think they are smoke rounds - you don’t use them at night. Certainly no WP. The Gaza hospitals would be full of civilian burn victims. I don’t KNOW what WP looks like, since we don’t use it anymore. In fact, I have never heard of a modern round specifically for fire bombing...but I’m thinking it would be a heavy shell set for groundburst....not delicately hang in the air and flicker.
I did a little googling and found references to 155 mm (and smaller) arty and mortar shells that disperse smoke canisters and also shells that disperse WP soaked felt pieces. The WP auto-ignites in the atmosphere.
The ordinance in these photos clearly contains a LOT of ‘smoke emitters’ per item.
Not sure what it is. But thanks for the help.
Willy Pete (x2) and smoke.
I am with you. The ‘hang in the air and flicker’ has got me fooled.
And the use of WP in civilian areas would be a Reuters-ready moment.
Still baffled and ready to be educated.
Thanks Major. I’ll go with your answer since you are active USMC.
Thanks for serving, BTW.
My middle son goes for his officer interview and PFT on 6 January, with a Capt. Reddick at the Recruiting Station HQ in ATL.
Semper Fi!
Could be anti-personal rounds designed to burst overhead and throw fragments down.
I had to think about your 1-20-13 for a bit.
0bama’s last day in office
;-)
Recommended Reading:
ISRAEL, THAT DEADLY PIECE OF DIRT (2001)
Author: Peter S. Ruckman, Ph.D.
Source: Pensacola Bible Institute Press, Pensacola, Florida
(You can Google that)
Could be. But those are generally for an assembled force. And as I understand them, they produce black smoke.
And area-target antipersonnel munitions over a demonstrably civilian area would be very politically risky.
I am going with the Major’s view that these are white phosphorous-based smoke munitions. FAS.org and globalsecurity.org report that these munitions produce good smoke in 1/2 minute that can last for about 5 minutes. The canon cockers’ job is to fire enough rounds to shield actions for the ground commander’s desired time frame and map reference.
I am not sure what that round is but they were using air burst cluster rounds to clear landmines.
Thanks.
My dad’s brother was a Marine pilot in the Pacific in WWII. He flew B-17s for the Marines. My dad flew TBMs and then F4Us for the Navy. (my middle son intends to be a Marine Corps officer)
FWIW, I got two accurate answers on this munition — both from Marines ;-)
.......He flew B-17s for the Marines.......
The Marines had no B 17’s
Somebody else already mentioned it here. The one that looks like a firework could be a HE shell that went off too early. The ‘rain of fire’ quote is on Drudge now, with photo.
OK. Just bear in mind that my Dad’s brother Jack died ferrying a B-17. My dad and his younger brother Jon were only 11 mos apart and had been like twins. I trust my dad to tell me the truth that his brother died flying a B-17 as a Marine pilot.
Granted they might not have been on a combat mission for the Marines, but that Marine crew died flying a B-17 for their country.
My dad still has his brother’s Marine ring which he had mailed home prior to flying to Hawaii. His plane never made it and no wreckage or bodies were ever recovered.
Could you tell mewhere you got that picture? My dad was at Iwo, aboard ship, a sailor, myself and family are putting together a sort of book about his time in WW2, thanks.
On 17 February 1942, ten B-17 Flying Fortresses of a US Navy Task Force in "Southern Bomber Command" arrived at Archerfield airfield in Brisbane. These ten B-17's were part of a group of twelve B-17's that had flown from Hawaii via Plaine de Gaiacs, New Caledonia. They had spent a number of weeks in Hawaii prior to this long flight. On the final leg from Plaine de Gaiacs, two of the B-17's flew directly to Townsville in north Queensland through a tropical storm. This Naval Task Force was made up of twelve B-17's from a variety of Squadrons under the command of Captain R. Carmichael. Six of the Navy's ten B-17's that flew into Archerfield on 17 February 1942, were ex members of the 88th Reconnaissance Squadron of the 7th Bomb Group. The 88th Reconnaissance squadron had earlier flown from California to Hawaii arriving during the Japanese air raid on 7 December 1941.
Ok... ok
I’m wrong.
I’m just now reading about the Marine flyers and there has been no mention of any Marines flying B 17’s. The repeated mention is of Marines escorting Army B17’s on a more or less daily basis as they bombed various Japanese targets from 1943 into 1944. I recall no notation of VMF squadrons with B17’s.
No worries. I’ll ask my dad (he’s 87) for a few more details to square this up. And I’ll post his answer and ping you guys. I knew the Army Air Corps and the Navy flew the B-17s for the most part in the Pacific. I’ll find out more if I can about why my late uncle flew 17s as a Marine.
My dad and his bro were both “aviation cadets” at (of all places) UGA Athens, Ga. He said he did a LOT of marching with wooden rifles wearing Coca-Cola deliveryman uniforms until they got the real deals. He learned to fly aerobatics in a Stearman, and did his cross countries in an ‘airknocker’ (Aeronca). He didn’t fly his first all metal aircraft (Grumman of course) until he began carrier quals. He got into theatre just after Midway and stayed in til the occupation of Japan. He was shot down once (by flak), rescued twice by subs (had to ditch once due to oil starvation) EARNED his purple hearts, and had one air combat kill in his TBM. He went head to head with a Betty and WON with his 30’s. He was briefly on the Ranger and then served on a number of different ‘jeep’ carriers. His ship was kamikazied once while he was in the ready room, and was pretty badly burned during firefighting. [ He tells stories about how the crew learned when to be concerned about getting hit: When the 5 inchers went to 40s, that was OK; but when the 20s took over for the 40s, that was time to raise your heartbeat; and when the 50cal mounts lit up, that’s when you made sure you had your helmet on good. ] After being hit, he and the ship went to San Fran for dry dock, then returned to Japan for the occupation.
More later.
Thanks. I’ll ask my dad for clarification. It’s still a tough subject for him after all these years. I’ll post his reply about why his bro was flying 17s.
I am pretty certain he has told me in the past that both Marine and Navy pilots flew off the carriers early on in the war, and that they were fairly interchangeable. Again, I’ll ask him for a first-hand clarification.
I look forward to the report...... thanks
Pics give ya that warm, fuzzy feeling...
Whatever it is, it looks cool and is probably terrifying to the terrorist.
I’m pretty sure they’re phosphorous shells. Which explains the “rain of fire” comments.
That looks more like white phosphorous than a flechette to me. A flechette round is a more yellowish explosion following by more uneven trails, but I could be wrong.
In my earlier reading I found no reference to Marines flying multi engine bombers in the SWPAC area. I’m now reading “The Seige of Rabaul” written largely from the Japaneese perspective and including many first hand references. It tells of specially rigged night fighters to defend aginst night flying B 17’s. They were flown by the 65th bomb squadron 43rd Bomb Group Army Air corps.
It also tells of Marine bombers, PB-1D’s (AKA B-25) Mitchells.
The combined Army and Marine efforts made life miserable for the besieged Japaneese
I read the piece you posted about the 88th recon squadron and was glad to have it.
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