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Seneca Nation targets NY Thruway in tax dispute
Jamestown Post Journal ^ | January 13, 2008

Posted on 01/13/2009 6:01:52 PM PST by Dan Nunn

BUFFALO -- It appears the New York State Thruway will again figure prominently in a dispute between the Seneca Indian Nation and the state over cigarette taxes.

On Tuesday, Seneca President Barry Snyder outlined the nations response to a law signed by Gov. David Paterson that would ban manufacturers from selling unstamped cigarettes to wholesalers who supply reservation stores.

Snyder says tribal councilors are now devising a system to collect tolls of $2 per car on the Thruway, where it passes through the tribes Cattaraugus Reservation in western New York. He called the interstate an illegal, unlicensed business.

In 1997, the Senecas burned tires and shut down part of the Thruway following an attempt that year by the state to tax Indian suppliers.


TOPICS: US: New York
KEYWORDS: americanindians; govwatch; indian; newyork; nysfiscalblackhole; seneca; taxes; thruway
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While I'd rather have them set fires to tires in the thruway, I suppose this will be an effective move against NY violating Indian treaties. We'll see if it comes to fruition or if it's a bargaining ploy.
1 posted on 01/13/2009 6:01:53 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: Dan Nunn

There are a few of us that would send truckloads of tires.


2 posted on 01/13/2009 6:05:58 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: xcamel

I second that!


3 posted on 01/13/2009 6:07:32 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: Dan Nunn

Never stand between a liberal and a tax they are trying to collect. This simple fact trumps all so called liberal ideology on a host of issues. They’d have you killed to collect a roll of pennies.

I hope the Seneca Nation fights this tooth and nail.


4 posted on 01/13/2009 6:09:47 PM PST by headstamp 2 (Been here before)
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To: xcamel

I’ll supply the Gas and Matches


5 posted on 01/13/2009 6:10:34 PM PST by JimC214
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To: headstamp 2

Hint: Last time it turned into a shooting war..


6 posted on 01/13/2009 6:11:48 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Dan Nunn

Another end run by the liberals to get undeserved money.


7 posted on 01/13/2009 6:13:17 PM PST by CriticalJ
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To: Dan Nunn

There are ways to deal with rioting Native Americans.


8 posted on 01/13/2009 6:13:28 PM PST by jude24
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To: Dan Nunn
...Seneca President Barry Snyder...

I think this was an episode of The Sopranos.

9 posted on 01/13/2009 6:13:30 PM PST by decimon
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To: Dan Nunn

Are they sovereign nations or not? Which is it? The leftwing, kook DemocRATS need to make up their minds. Count me in on sending them some tires!


10 posted on 01/13/2009 6:14:17 PM PST by FlingWingFlyer (CIA Director!....So easy, a caveman can do it!)
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To: Dan Nunn

I hope the Sencas win this one.


11 posted on 01/13/2009 6:14:47 PM PST by Shyla
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To: Dan Nunn
I hope the Senecas do this and NY State sends ALL of it's State Police to the area.

Maybe someone will count the number of cops in NY State and report it. I'm serious. There are more cops at the town, city, county and state level than anyplace else in the country. All union and they need the tax to pay their wages and pension. A conflict of interest? Nawwwww. They are dedicated public servants.

I'm rooting for the Indians, at the very least to stir the sh*t up in the Empire State.

12 posted on 01/13/2009 6:16:35 PM PST by Zuben Elgenubi
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To: Dan Nunn
Not only Seneca, but Poospatuck here on Long Island too:

Mastic tribe's suit: Suffolk cops harassed residents

Treaty after treaty has been violated against America's indignant people in the past, and this is no exception. Mainly the state is greedy for $$$ due to its long track record of waste and fraud, and so targets one of the few areas where increased revenue wasn't available - Indian Reservations - thereby breaking yet another treaty

13 posted on 01/13/2009 6:17:44 PM PST by Mr_Moonlight
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: Dan Nunn

Patterson is an idiot. Relative to the number of residents of NY those traveling to the reservations to buy cigs is minimal. If he wants to raise $$$$ with higher tobacco taxes-he should just tack another $2 a pack tax onto cigs sold in the state and leave the reservations alone.


15 posted on 01/13/2009 6:18:09 PM PST by mrmargaritaville
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To: Shyla

I drove into that county multiple times about 2-3 years ago. Right on the reservation line was a huge black sign with white letters saying something like “Honor The Treaties.”

Happy New Year, Shyla! :-)


16 posted on 01/13/2009 6:19:05 PM PST by GOP_Lady
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To: GOP_Lady

Happy New year to you also.

Enjoying the weather??? Plfff...

We drive that way a few times a year. Friends of ours have cabins up that way. Beautiful area.
Of course, when time makes it possible, we make a stop at the casino and make a donation..... : )


17 posted on 01/13/2009 6:23:10 PM PST by Shyla
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To: Dan Nunn

In the old days, the Palefaces would cart in a couple barrels of whiskey and the Seneca Nation opposition would melt away. These days, the Palefaces of the NY Government will cart in a couple suitcases of cash. Same result, although the Seneca won’t get quite as drunk.


18 posted on 01/13/2009 6:25:05 PM PST by Opinionated Blowhard
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To: Dan Nunn
This transcript contains some info about what happened in 1997:
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/3dseries/2006/2006_51994.htm
19 posted on 01/13/2009 6:26:16 PM PST by NewJerseyJoe (Rat mantra: "Facts are meaningless! You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!")
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To: Dan Nunn
While I'd rather have them set fires to tires in the thruway, I suppose this will be an effective move against NY violating Indian treaties.

It's not a violation of the treaties. The Supreme Court of the United States has consistently ruled that a state may legally tax sales to non-Indians without violating federal law or the "treaties."

20 posted on 01/13/2009 6:36:14 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Dan Nunn
Prima facie, it looks like the loser governer of NY is on thin ice. Worcester v. Georgia (1832) established that State laws (such as New York's) have no authority in dealings with the Indian Nations.

The Constitution says that only Congress has the authority to deal with the Indian Nations. Of course, we all know how much respect liberals have for the Constitution.

21 posted on 01/13/2009 6:36:35 PM PST by NewJerseyJoe (Rat mantra: "Facts are meaningless! You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!")
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To: mrmargaritaville
Patterson is an idiot. Relative to the number of residents of NY those traveling to the reservations to buy cigs is minimal. If he wants to raise $$$$ with higher tobacco taxes-he should just tack another $2 a pack tax onto cigs sold in the state and leave the reservations alone.

Actually, some reports have the state losing millions per year because of the Indians breaking the law. Putting additional taxes on the packs will only encourage more illegal sales.

Personally, I'd prefer no taxes at all. However, if the taxes are going to be imposed they should be enforced equally, without regard to "race" or ethnicity.

22 posted on 01/13/2009 6:38:40 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Dan Nunn

Now if we can only get the rest of American on board...


23 posted on 01/13/2009 6:41:54 PM PST by Doohickey (The more cynical you become, the better off you'll be.)
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To: NewJerseyJoe
Prima facie, it looks like the loser governer of NY is on thin ice. Worcester v. Georgia (1832) established that State laws (such as New York's) have no authority in dealings with the Indian Nations.

Actually, in OKLAHOMA TAX COMM'N v. POTAWATOMI TRIBE, 498 U.S. 505 (1991) the US Supreme Court held, in a state is free to collect taxes on such sales to nonmembers of the tribe which is all the NYS law seeks to do.

24 posted on 01/13/2009 6:43:46 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Mr_Moonlight
America's indignant people...

LOL! That would include libtard in America

25 posted on 01/13/2009 6:44:05 PM PST by Doohickey (The more cynical you become, the better off you'll be.)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines

Let the Indians sell them as the currently do and set up customs stop on the US board of the Indian own lands. That way NY gets the taxes, the Indians get the business and the people get screwed just like the rest of the state.

BTW - I really have a problem with funding programs with items that are then taxed into oblivion. What happens when the costs are so high there is massive drop in tax revenue to support the programs? Oh yeah, it already happened.


26 posted on 01/13/2009 6:46:49 PM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
However, if the taxes are going to be imposed they should be enforced equally, without regard to "race" or ethnicity.

I agree 100%.

These native tribes haven't been exempt from various forms of taxation because of their race or ethnicity, but because of their location. From a legal standpoint Indian reservations are sovereign territories that aren't subject to the same laws as "ordinary" parts of the U.S.

27 posted on 01/13/2009 6:51:17 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: Alberta's Child
These native tribes haven't been exempt from various forms of taxation because of their race or ethnicity, but because of their location.

Not true. Most of the benefits of "sovereignty" apply only to members of the tribe (ie, members of that ethnicity) who are operating on the location in question.

28 posted on 01/13/2009 6:57:36 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Doohickey

hahahahaaa .. yep, yer right! Stoopit me to trust spell-check .... indigenous it should have said :)


29 posted on 01/13/2009 7:00:05 PM PST by Mr_Moonlight
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To: Shyla

“I hope the Sencas win this one.”

No one wins. ‘A nation within a nation’....it’s never worked, and it never will. Just more divide and conquer....identity politics.


30 posted on 01/13/2009 7:04:50 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: mrmargaritaville

Why should members of the Seneca tribe be paying less cigarette tax than I do? Either this is America, or it isn’t. Either we’re equal or we’re not. It’s past time to stop this ‘tribal’ thinking.


31 posted on 01/13/2009 7:08:14 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: NewJerseyJoe

“Prima facie, it looks like the loser governer of NY is on thin ice. Worcester v. Georgia (1832) established that State laws (such as New York’s) have no authority in dealings with the Indian Nations”

Do you know what the result of that decision and Worcester winning it was?

The trail of tears. Jackson refused to enforce the Supreme court ruling in favor of ‘Worchester’, who was a missionary representing the Cherokee, against the state of Georgia.

Law means nothing if it’s not enforced.


32 posted on 01/13/2009 7:14:02 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines

“Personally, I’d prefer no taxes at all. However, if the taxes are going to be imposed they should be enforced equally, without regard to “race” or ethnicity. “

Thank you. After 200 & years at this Constitutional experiment, so few get that.


33 posted on 01/13/2009 7:16:06 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
Well, that's true. I guess it makes sense that some mob boss couldn't just move to a "reservation" and claim that he's a Seneca or Oneida Indian.

I'd point out, though, that as time goes on it gets harder to state with any kind of certainty that someone who claims to be an "Indian" isn't telling the truth.

34 posted on 01/13/2009 7:17:10 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: AuntB

I still hope the Senecas can beat the New York dem cash grab.


35 posted on 01/13/2009 7:26:54 PM PST by Shyla
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To: Dan Nunn

Burn tires on the thruway? Won’t work, for long. What they need to do is burn down the NYS Assembly and Senate and then continue on and plant a charge under the Governor’s mansion.
When the Assembly and Senate are in session in Albany we have the largest aggregation of crooks, swindlers and thieves in one place in NY since the Mafia meeting in Apalachin in 1957.


36 posted on 01/13/2009 7:27:27 PM PST by Larry381 (Join BlueServo and protect your border.(http://www.blueservo.net/))
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To: AuntB
> Do you know what the result of that decision
> The trail of tears.

I did know that. Are you suggesting that Nobama and his Dem Congress are going to repeat such actions against the N.Y. Senecas?? As mindless as the Obama supporters/drones are, even they would raise an outcry against the weasel Dems if they tried to pull such a stunt.

37 posted on 01/13/2009 7:28:07 PM PST by NewJerseyJoe (Rat mantra: "Facts are meaningless! You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!")
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To: Alberta's Child

“Well, that’s true. I guess it makes sense that some mob boss couldn’t just move to a “reservation” and claim that he’s a Seneca or Oneida Indian.

I’d point out, though, that as time goes on it gets harder to state with any kind of certainty that someone who claims to be an “Indian” isn’t telling the truth. “

__________________

Many tribes, including a local one,the Klamath can invite anyone to be a member of their tribe. Builds their numbers and handouts and political power. Many ‘Cheifs’ are not blood native. Tribal governments are notorious for corruption and scamming. John Ross, the ‘Chief’ of the Cherokees from the 1830’s to 1866 was blue eyed and 1/8th Cherokee.


38 posted on 01/13/2009 7:28:32 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: NewJerseyJoe

I wouldn’t speculate what the government of NY might do. It’s beyond me. I admit I will smile if the Seneca’s put any left coast politico in their place. Then they need to shut up and remember they should be Americans like the rest of us instead of ‘Seneca’ first.


39 posted on 01/13/2009 7:36:46 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
The Supreme Court of the United States has consistently ruled that a state may legally tax sales to non-Indians without violating federal law or the "treaties."

It's more than that. New York is telling the Indians to become tax collectors. New York already "charges" tax to non-Indians by requiring residents to declare purchases out of state.

40 posted on 01/13/2009 7:51:20 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: Dan Nunn
It's more than that. New York is telling the Indians to become tax collectors.

Wrong again. The whole point of the new law is to impose the tax at the distributor level, before it even gets to the reservation. However, even if we assume that the Indians are "collecting" the tax, the Supreme Court has held that the tribes can be required to do that if they wish to sell to non-Indians.

41 posted on 01/13/2009 7:54:16 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: AuntB
No one wins. ‘A nation within a nation’....it’s never worked, and it never will. Just more divide and conquer....identity politics.

So what should we do about the treaties signed hundreds of years ago by our forefathers?

42 posted on 01/13/2009 7:56:22 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
the Supreme Court has held that the tribes can be required to do that if they wish to sell to non-Indians.

Sovereign tribes? How is that different than demanding Ontario start collecting New York State sales tax?

And you are correct that it is at the distributor level. What is to stop out of state distributors from doing business with the Seneca nation? This is nearly on the Pennsylvania border.

43 posted on 01/13/2009 8:03:27 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: Dan Nunn
Sovereign tribes? How is that different than demanding Ontario start collecting New York State sales tax?

Contrary to what the Native American race-baiters like to argue, "sovereign" Indian Nations have never been treated exactly like foreign governments. They are subject to federal law and, to the extent federal law decrees it (as in this case) state law.

44 posted on 01/13/2009 8:06:53 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Dan Nunn

Good. I’m in favor of anything that keeps the NYS moneygrubbers the hell out of my pocket. NYS literally does tax anything that moves, anything that used to move, and anything that cannot move. Enough.

BTW..NOBODY — not Indians and not non-Indians — should be having to pay these kinds of taxes on cigarettes. It’s insanity itself to charge $10/pack just so the state can collect billions of dollars from people who really just want to be left alone.

It is not now, nor has it ever been about “health.”

Regards,

PS: While I feel for the mom and pop convenience stores that are claiming they’ve lost business, may I suggest that they direct their ire towards the REAL culprits here: their own legislature. Had NYS not raised taxes to this unconscionable level, they would not be in the position of having to compete for business. Believe me, I’m sure smokers would MUCH rather walk around the corner for smokes than drive many miles away. The taxes are the problem here, not the Indians.


45 posted on 01/13/2009 8:17:31 PM PST by VermiciousKnid (Wake up and smell the incense!)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
I don't quite know what you mean by 'race-baiters' but it sounds like something I'd be called because of my opposition to Obama. Anyway, you can choose to ignore the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua signed by George Washington's agent, but here is what the United States agreed to, specifically (as it relates to the Senecas):

ARTICLE 2. The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga, and Cayuga Nations in their respective treaties with the State of New York, and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them, or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends, residing thereon, and united with them in the free use and enjoyment thereof; but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.

46 posted on 01/13/2009 8:17:59 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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To: VermiciousKnid

Agreed. Mom and pops blaming the Indians for tax-free cigarettes is like blaming the gun in a shooting. We need this bum governor out of the office.


47 posted on 01/13/2009 8:19:31 PM PST by Dan Nunn
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Dan Nunn

I wish it were only Paterson.

Unfortunately, my own (allegedly) GOP representatives in the NYS legislature back this law, and my (allegedly) GOP county legislator (Suffolk) has voted to join Mikey Bloomberg’s lawsuit against the Poospatuck Indians.

There’s plenty of GOP garbage out there, and they are well represented in NYS.

Regards,


49 posted on 01/13/2009 8:22:28 PM PST by VermiciousKnid (Wake up and smell the incense!)
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To: Dan Nunn

Your citation doesn’t reference the Senecas, only “the Oneida, Onondaga, and Cayuga Nations.” And at least two of those tribes (Oneida and Cayuga) have been found to have lost their reservations. See the Sherrill decision and the Court of Appeals decision Cayuga Indian Nation v Pataki.


50 posted on 01/13/2009 8:24:40 PM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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