Skip to comments.Official: Guantanamo Detainee Was Tortured
Posted on 01/14/2009 1:18:12 AM PST by gondramB
A Bush administration official responsible for reviewing practices at Guantanamo Bay says the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Washington Post reported.
"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," Susan J. Crawford told the Post. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.
Crawford is the first senior Bush administration official who investigates Guantanamo dealings to publicly say a detainee was tortured.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
But many of us who generally think torture should be illegal admit we could rarely support torture in the ticking time bomb scenario.
And someone who was supposed to be on a 9/11 terror plane might well have had critical time sensitive information to save lives.
But we need some check to keep the government from torturing more broadly. Absent immediately saving another life, torture is cruel as defined by the Constitution.
Perhaps we could have torture warrants and the government should have to make its case to torture. I simply don't trust the government enough to decide on torture without checks and balance that the public can observe.
Your position is logical, Christian and one with which I and any true intelligent conservative would agree.
Surely you are prepared to get flamed by saying it here.
Remember the Professional Wrestling wing of the GOP is what is destroying it.
> Torture is terrible thing to do - worse in many cases than killing them.
War is a terrible thing to do. Driving aeroplanes into the side of the World Trade Center is a terrible thing to do. Slamming an aeroplane into the Pentagon is a terrible thing to do. Driving an aeroplane into a Pennsylvania field is a terrible thing to do. Sawing off people’s heads with dull knives on TV is a terrible thing to do. Blowing up trains during rush hour is a terrible thing to do...
So where does it stop, and where does it begin? At what point is the Enemy going to respect human rights at least as much as we do?
This particular enemy doesn’t, and won’t.
In that context, then, waterboarding the Enemy is a mild, measured and polite response that is well within the confines of moral justifiability.
How exactly did they torture this person?
“The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual,” she told the Post. “This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for.”
Interrogation techniques used on Qahtani included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold. He was hospitalized twice.
I simply do not care what happens to these vicious, horrible people. Let me see if I can muster a feeling...nope, nothing. If they can dish it out, then surely they can take it. Maybe Allah will give them a few extra virgins for their trouble.
The person is still alive which translates to he was not ‘tortured’ enough.
This is the first actual case of torture I've seen, and it will be interesting to see how the media treat this, as we've been told till now about "torture" when what was actually happening was interrogation.
This is a very tiny sampler of what I have looked at recently ON THE INTERNET:
THE JAWA REPORT: "AN AMERICAN JIHADI IN SOMALIA AND HIS WASHINGTON FRIENDS IN AL QAEDA" (SNIPPET: "But perhaps the most important piece of the story is an admission that Shumpert turned to the Salafi strand of Islam after he met with some Muslims in Washington who had recently returned from fighting the jihad in Chechnya..." SNIPPET: "So, who are Ruben Shumpert's friends who had been to Chechnya and are they still on the loose in Washington?") (January 13, 2009) (Read More...)
COUNTERTERRORISM BLOG.org: "FEDS CITE RACIST CHATTER FOR 'HIGHER STATE OF ALERT' IN INAUGURATION" by James Gordon Meek (SNIPPET: ""Everybody in law enforcement dealing with that particular (white supremacist) 'clientele' is on a higher state of alert," a senior agent at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told The News. The ATF has expertise infiltrating white supremacist groups. A classified threat assessment for the Inauguration by the FBI and Homeland Security Department citing agitated hate groups was sent to police agencies this week. Counterterrorism officials have also picked up chatter from Islamic militants, but the agitated domestic hate groups are "the big concern," said another FBI official") (January 13, 2009) (Read More...)
JIHAD WATCH.org: "AFGHAN JIHADIST TO OBAMA: "You should also cause one more addition to the U.S. history by becoming the first president to accept the Truth and by adopting the true faith of Islam"" (January 10, 2009) (Read More...)
TOORABORA.com: "By the name of Allah the most gracious and most merciful An Open Letter from the Peaks of Tora Bora to the White House The president of United States Barak Husain Obama!" (December 27, 2008)
FRONTPAGE MAGAZINE.com (NEW YORK POST): "INTELLIGENCE FAILURE" by Ralph Peters (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "WOULD you ask your accountant to perform brain surgery on your child? That's the closest analogy I can find to the choice of Democratic Party hack Leon Panetta to head the CIA.") (January 8, 2009) (Read More...)
YNET NEWS.com (REUTERS): "BUSH AIDE: MUMBAI-LIKE ATTACK COULD HAPPEN IN U.S." (SNIPPET: "Ken Wainstein told a Washington think tank that the Mumbai attacks in November showed the effectiveness of a low-technology coordinated assault on an open city.") (Published January 8, 2009, 04:01) (Read More...)
WHITEHOUSE.gov - News Release: "REMARKS BY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR STEPHEN HADLEY at the Center for Strategic and International Studies CSIS Washington, D.C." (SNIPPET: "America is a nation at war. And in the post-9/11 world, we face complex challenges that will not pause for a change in administrations.") (January 7, 2009) (Read More...)
THE AGE.com.au: "CIA TRACKING 4000 UK TERROR SUSPECTS" by Tim Shipman, Washington (SNIPPET: "THE CIA has begun an unprecedented intelligence-gathering operation in Britain to help MI5 monitor 4000 terrorist suspects. More than four out of 10 CIA operations to prevent attacks on US soil are now conducted against targets in Britain.") (January 5, 2009) (Read More...)
TELEGRAPH.co.uk: "TERRORISTS COULD USE 'INSECT-BASED' BIOLOGICAL WEAPON" by John Adams (SNIPPET: "Terrorists would find it "relatively easy" to launch a devastating attack using swarms of insects to spread a deadly disease, an academic has warned.") (Last updated January 5, 2009, 2:43 pm GMT) (Read More...)
MEMRI.org - Special Dispatch - No. 2165: "As Gaza Fighting Continues, Egyptian Clerics Intensify Antisemitic Statements; Columbus, Ohio Muslim Scholar/Leader Dr. Salah Sultan: Muhammad Said That Judgment Day Will Not Come Until Muslims Fight the Jews and Kill Them; America Will Suffer Destruction" (December 30, 2008) (Read More...)
WASHINGTON TIMES.com: "SOMALIS IN U.S. DRAW FBI ATTENTION War at home seen as lure" by Sara A. Carter (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Many members of the Somali community are concerned over disappearances, he said.") (December 29, 2008) (Read More...)
JPOST.com (AP): "SAUDI CLERIC CALLS FOR TARGETING ISRAELIS ALL OVER THE WORLD" (SNIPPET: "A Saudi Web site reported on Sunday that a popular cleric issued a fatwa urging Muslims to target Israeli interests "everywhere," to avenge the attacks on the Gaza strip. The site, Rasid, posts news about Saudi Arabia's Shiite community and said that Sheik Awadh al-Garni issued a religious edict..." (December 28, 2008, 23:07) (Read More...)
YNET NEWS.com (AP): "INTEL REPORT: HIZBULLAH MAY STRIKE IN US" (SNIPPET: "Homeland Security Threat Assessment for the years 2008-2013 says Hizbullah may foment terror attack in US if there is some kind of 'triggering' event. 'The threat of terrorism and the threat of extremist ideologies have not abated," Chertoff says.") (Published December 25, 2008, 23:52) (Read More...)
JIHAD WATCH.org (TELEGRAPH.co.uk): "U.K.: MOSQUE 'COMMITTED TO PEACE, DIVERSITY AND INTERFAITH DIALOGUE' HOSTS CONFERENCE FEATURING 'SPIRITUAL ADVISOR' TO 9/11 JIHADISTS" (SNIPPET: "The publicity material for the all-day event appears to be a clear reference to the attacks on New York, and features meteors raining down on Manhattan, setting fire to the city and shattering the Statue of Liberty.") (December 27, 2008) (Read More...)
IBD EDITORIALS.com: "A TERROR WARNING" (SNIPPET: "But what about President-elect Barack Obama? He faces a different problem. Many of those who voted for him either dismiss the terrorist threat, or believe none exists. Still worse, some think we should placate our enemies, not vanquish them.") (Posted December 26, 2008, 4:20 pm PT) (Read More...)
DEFENSElink.mil (AMERICAN FORCES PRESS SERVICE): Washington - "CHENEY CALLS ABSENCE OF POST-9/11 ATTACKS 'REMARKABLE ACHIEVEMENT'" (SNIPPET: ""The threat's still out there, and still [is] very real," Cheney said.") (December 22, 2008) (Read More...)
PETROLEUM WORLD (AFP, December 21, 2008,13:28 GMT): Rome - "IRAN USING VENEZUELA TIES TO DUCK UN SANCTIONS: REPORT" (SNIPPET: "Citing US and other Western intelligence agencies, La Stampa said Iran is using aircraft from Venezuelan airline Conviasa to transport computers and engine components to Syria for use in missiles.") (December 22, 2008) (Read More...)
JIHAD WATCH.org (TIMES ONLINE.co.uk): "U.K.: COUNTERTERROR ADVISOR TO METROPOLITAN POLICE IS ON INTERPOL WANTED LIST" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Mohamed Ali Harrath has been the subject of the Interpol red notice since 1992 because of his alleged activities in Tunisia, where he co-founded the Tunisian Islamic Front (FIT). Tunisia has accused Mr Harrath, the chief executive officer of the Islam Channel in Britain and an adviser to the Scotland Yard Muslim Contact Unit, of seeking help from Osama bin Laden. It says that the FIT wants to establish "an Islamic state by means of armed revolutionary violence".") (December 15, 2008) (Read More...)
LONG WAR JOURNAL.org - blog (THE WEEKLY STANDARD): "AL QAEDA'S ANTHRAX SCIENTIST" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "The government of Malaysia made a curious announcement this week: Yazid Sufaat, a known al Qaeda operative, and four other alleged terrorists have been released from jail.") (December 12, 2008, 1:16 pm) (Read More...)
JPOST.com: "INDIA WARNS THAT AL-QAIDA TARGETING GOA" by Yaakov Lappin (SNIPPET: ""Today, Goa faces serious threat from terrorists and there were specific inputs that al-Qaida would target certain [tourist] installations in Goa. Goa has a coastline of 105 km., major sea ports and beaches," the state's chief secretary, J.P. Singh, wrote in a memo, according to Indian media.") (Updated December 8, 2008, 5:21) (Read More...)
JIHAD WATCH.org: "EGYPTIAN CLERIC CALLS OBAMA TO CONVERT TO ISLAM" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Note the clear implication that if the one to whom this call is issued does not become a Muslim, his life and property will not be safe.") (December 4, 2008) (Read More...)
WHITEHOUSE.gov - News - Fact Sheet: "DEFENDING AGAINST WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION TERRORISM Commission Report Endorses Administration Initiatives and Calls for Continuation of Successful WMD Policies to Address Increasing Threat" (December 3, 2008) (Read More...)
LIFE IN ITALY.com (ANSA): Milan - "TERROR SUSPECTS 'TARGETING ITALY'" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "The men are believed to have watched instructional films on terrorist attacks and researched methods on the Internet."ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Police also seized the Peace Cultural Centre in the Lombardy village of Macherio, where Ilhami worked as a preacher, during Tuesday's operation. According to investigators, small groups of fundamentalists met at the centre in the evenings after the day's official sermons were finished.") (December 2, 2008)
>>I simply do not care what happens to these vicious, horrible people. Let me see if I can muster a feeling...nope, nothing. If they can dish it out, then surely they can take it. Maybe Allah will give them a few extra virgins for their trouble.<<
My Grand Daddy used to tell a story about a woman who screamed at a man for holding the door for her - yelling “you don’t have to hold for me because I’m a lady.”
The man responded “I don’t even know whether you are a lady - I held the door because I am a gentleman.”
Obviously we are talking about a deadly serious situation, not just hold a door, but there is a similar principle - that we treat others humanely not because of their worthiness but because of our character and best interest.
If the prisoner sees someone wearing a cross lapel pin.... is it torture? If their last meal was not halal is it torture? If their lawyer doesn’t take a secret code for their handlers in the US is it torture? some people have an odd idea on what is torture.
There is certainly strong disagreement on this issue... but I find I get treated better here when I’m in the minority on an issue than on most other boards.
I appreciate your post.
"The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent," Crawford sniffed. "You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual," she told the Post. "This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for."
"They were mean to him!"
Interrogation techniques used on Qahtani included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold.
>>War is a terrible thing to do. Driving aeroplanes into the side of the World Trade Center is a terrible thing to do. Slamming an aeroplane into the Pentagon is a terrible thing to do. Driving an aeroplane into a Pennsylvania field is a terrible thing to do. Sawing off peoples heads with dull knives on TV is a terrible thing to do. Blowing up trains during rush hour is a terrible thing to do...
So where does it stop, and where does it begin? At what point is the Enemy going to respect human rights at least as much as we do?
This particular enemy doesnt, and wont.
In that context, then, waterboarding the Enemy is a mild, measured and polite response that is well within the confines of moral justifiability.<<
Generally I support the death penalty for pretty much any terrorist action that results in a death... and support it strongly for the examples you list.
But we don’t give somebody the death penalty in secret and without carefully justifying it. I’m arguing the standard for torture should be rigorous and also subject to justification of an imminent saving of life.
>>And of course when you read the article you quickly discover that there was no torture, and this woman, this “Susan Crawford”, is just another liberal scumbag who is stabbing Bush in the back on his way out the door, just like he deserves for having Democrat scum like Crawford in his administration in the first place.<<
I don’t if Wikipedia is accurate but this is what it says about her
>>Susan J. Crawford is an American lawyer, who was appointed the convening authority for the Guantanamo military commissions, on February 7, 2007. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates appointed Crawford to replace John D. Altenburg. She had previously served as judge and chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, Inspector General of the Department of Defense (appointed by George H. W. Bush), General Counsel for the Department of the Army (appointed by Ronald Reagan) and Assistant State’s Attorney for Garrett County, Maryland.<<
This torture might have consisted of forcing the detainee to sit through “Mamma Mia” all the way to the end.
More inmates are tortured in the California Correctional system then in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.
Always remember to a muslim, beheadings are not torture.
>>If the prisoner sees someone wearing a cross lapel pin.... is it torture? If their last meal was not halal is it torture? If their lawyer doesnt take a secret code for their handlers in the US is it torture? some people have an odd idea on what is torture.<<
I formed some of my opinion on this when I worked for a college newspaper and was sent to cover an anti-abortion protest. Protesters laid down in front of cars to stop women from being delivered to the clinic for abortions.
The police twisted the protesters’ arms until the pain caused them to agree to stop blocking the cars.
I thought about it and concluded that torture included the government using pain to force people to do or say something the would not do willingly when there was another way.
I think putting somebody in a freezer until they have to be hospitalized would qualify.
>>More inmates are tortured in the California Correctional system then in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.<<
I watched a show on supermax prison in Cali - I think I’d rather be dead.
> But we dont give somebody the death penalty in secret and without carefully justifying it. Im arguing the standard for torture should be rigorous and also subject to justification of an imminent saving of life.
Perhaps during a time of war “Torture” (or more properly “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”) should be relegated to the level of Field Court Martial. Same as hanging spies or applying Field Punishments #1 and #2 for delinquent troops.
So what I am suggesting is that it should be made an operational decision and not something that requires senior court oversight.
Note: This is public information.
So, what is lesson 18?
Here’s a copy right here.
and what was the torture in this particular case?
Its a fine line but F, Qhatami and his ilk
>>and what was the torture in this particular case?<<
I think she is arguing the combination stripping him and refrigerating him to coerce a statement became torture when it caused him to be hospitalized.
I would think refrigerating someone to coerce a statement is torture before that happens.
But as to the 20th hijacker, if they caught him quickly so that he knew about any further attacks that day I can see possible justification for torture.
Sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold...
sounds like my normal Saturday night...
Here comes the “we have to close Guantanamo, the sooner the better” stories.
The U.S. has alleged that al-Qahtani, who military records show is about 28, barely missed becoming the 20th hijacker on Sept. 11, 2001. The Saudi was denied entry into the country by immigration agents at the airport in Orlando, Florida. At the time, he had more than $2,400 in cash, no return plane ticket and lead hijacker Mohamed Atta was waiting for him...——— “Alleged ‘20th Hijacker’ Claims Torture,” Associated Press ^ | 09/09/07 | BEN FOX
I would make the middle ages and the Inquisition look like a birthday party for a bunch of 5 yr. olds.
All these people are doing is preying on the touchy, feely, emotionaly adolescent liberals and their so called "High Moral Ground".
I would have taken it a step further- torturing his family in front of him.
“So where does it stop, and where does it begin? At what point is the Enemy going to respect human rights at least as much as we do?”
This scenario is eventually going to end with some atoms being split.
> This scenario is eventually going to end with some atoms being split.
The last bits of outrage over the events of September 11, 2001 are almost gone.
I hate those people for what they did to my Country, and to my Countrymen on that day. Anything we do to rid the earth of them will be just short of enough.
Sometimes people use the word "genocide" like it's a bad thing....
official responsible for reviewing practices at Guantanamo Bay says the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Washington Post reported.
“We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani,” Susan J. Crawford told the Post. “His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that’s why I did not refer the case” for prosecution.
I fear that the left has hijacked this issue by redefining “torture” to mean “any technique whatsoever for applying duress.” Under that definition it would be torture for a police agency to tell a murder suspect that if he didn’t confess he’d be tried, convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment.
I’m with DieHard on this one.
As Christians, I believe it is our DUTY to do whatever needs to be done in order to thwart the plans of evil people whose mantra is “First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people”.
I guess I am not “intelligent, conservative, or Christian”, because I believe we are responsible to protect innocent people. These jihadists are wringing their hands with delight when we come after our own governments for doing what they have to do to protect us.
People like you must go ballistic when we actually kill the enemy - those who would gladly slit your throat, given the chance.
Perhaps we could have torture warrants and the government should have to make its case to torture. I simply don’t trust the government enough to decide on torture without checks and balance that the public can observe.
Good point. The problem is I DON’T TRUST the Government enough to decide to do the right thing and put American citizens lives ahead of kissing up to the Islamist and the World Socialist...
But we need some check to keep the government from torturing more broadly. Absent immediately saving another life, torture is cruel as defined by the Constitution
These past 2 years as America has rushed headlong towards becoming a Socialist Country I have studied the United States Constitution intently. While not a rocket scientist I am positive I saw no reference to the legality or the morality of the use of torture to protect the citizens of the Nation. Perhaps you could post the Article and section where you found this definiton of torture?
>>>Torture is terrible thing to do - worse in many cases than killing them.<<<
That is pure bull, especially in the context of those held at Guitmo, where “torture” has been defined by the NYT and other leftist propaganda outlets as “Loud Music” and “Water Boarding”.
>>>But we need some check to keep the government from torturing more broadly.<<<
What we really need is some check to keep the news media from deceiving us—from siding with one political stripe or another. Our real enemy in this day and age is the New York Times’s, the Bill Moyer’s, the Brian William’s, and the Chris Matthew’s of this world.
I would think refrigerating someone to coerce a statement is torture before that happens.
Generally, "a statement" is thought of in terms of a confession. I believe most of the interrogations were for extracting operational intelligence, not confessions. Such intel can be checked against other sources and either substantiated or rejected. If rejected toss the prisoner back in the cooler. Unless a masochist the prisoner will learn to be truthful.
The liberal bleeding hearts protest the possibility of returning subhuman feces like this prisoner back to his HOME in Saudi Arabia. Instead, they want them in the USA, of course not where they happen to live. The ultimate placement of these monsters will be interesting to watch unfold.
Poor President Bush. He chose the metaphor of "war" without being prepared, and without preparing the People, to fight one.
FDR had the German terrorists arrested, interrogated to confession, tried, appealed, reviewed by the Supreme Court, and electrocuted in six weeks from the time they got their feet wet at Amagansett.
If you're interested in what taking the nation to war means, study FDR's first month of executive orders from 12/8/41-1/7/42. Total peace to total war in a can, so to speak.
I personally don't care what happens to the enemy at Gitmo (that's just me, I know it's an issue, I just can't muster any interest in it).
But to send them there with no plan - to, in essence, surrender to the cowardly view that if they were brought to US territory that lawyers and courts could be allowed supremacy over the War Power of the People of the United States, and then to have no plan to kill them once their usefulness to us was finished - that was the act of a bumbling adolescent, not a Commander-in-Chief.
This absurdity of some girl lawyer kicking him in the ass as he goes out the door follows from what went before.
...torture is cruel as defined by the Constitution.
Our 8th Amendment does ban cruel and unusual punishments, but at the time such punishments as cutting off an ear, branding with a hot iron, stocks and pillories were common and accepted. People accepted these as necessary - something had to be done to law breakers. Note: our Constitution only speaks to punishment, not interrogations.
Jails were used to hold suspects until trial, not for long term detention. Our first prison wasnt established until 1790 in Philadelphia. Prisons were still rare and it wasnt until the 19th century that more were added.
War sucks. War is when laws are no longer being followed, therefore rules of what is torture and what isn’t should be best left to the discretion of those in the field, who need the information the most.
Gitanamo is an example of America’s humanity toward human beings. We are a kind people. Most of these vermin would have had a bullet in the head in on the battlefield if they didn’t want to talk, not simply detained and sent to Club Gitmo.
I say torture, as this is a war. This is not a law and order issue. This is a do-what-it-takes to win. I hate it, too, but it must be done.
He was and is a non uniformed combatant and therefore should have been executed. How’s that for torture, Susan?
There is a difference between killing the enemy and torturing the enemy. You are either intentionally confusing them or are (as you admitted) not intelligent enough to differentiate.
One is a necessary action in defense of one’s own life.
The other is a sadistic practice proven to have little or no use other than to fulfill the desire for vengeance on the part of those aggrieved and the sexual deviant perversions of the torturer. It also degrades the entire people who the torturer represents to the level of the enemy.
Supreme Court Sides With Gitmo Detainees
Bush Unhappy With 5-4 Ruling That Foreign Terror Suspects Can Challenge Detention
(CBS/ AP) In a stinging rebuke to President Bush's anti-terror policies, a deeply divided Supreme Court ruled Thursday that foreign detainees held for years at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba have the right to appeal to U.S. civilian courts to challenge their indefinite imprisonment without charges.
Take no prisoners. End of story.
I don't understand that phrase. What is she talking about?
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