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Direct Answer - A solution for the reading gap between black and white children...
The New Republic ^ | January 14, 2009 | John McWhorter

Posted on 01/15/2009 4:10:25 PM PST by neverdem

A solution for the reading gap between black and white children was discovered four decades ago. So, why aren't we taking advantage of it?

One does not expect to see New York's school Chancellor Joel Klein on the same stage as Reverend Al Sharpton. Klein is infamous for his emphasis on test scores and shutting down schools that fail to measure up. Not so long ago, Sharpton was in the barricades with Russell Simmons protesting mayor Michael Bloomberg and Klein's plan to cut New York City's education budget.

Yet these days the two are teaming up for the Education Equality Project, which seeks to close the achievement gap between white and black kids in public schools. And at the New York City Department of Education's kickoff in a series on the topic last week, Klein and Sharpton agreed on most issues. Sharpton, who in his "reformed" guise has decided that education is a key civil rights issue, actually spoke up for vouchers and mayoral control of the school board.

The forum was a typical one on race and education, as ritualized as a religious service. First, an introducer recites the latest dropout statistics. Then, discussants and audience questioners flag the usual terms--Low Expectations, Parental Involvement, Vested Interests, Resources, Accountability--each greeted with knowing murmurs and applause. A tacit assumption is always that the grievous intersection of these factors explains why poor children, especially black and Latino ones, tend to trail so far behind white ones in reading skills--a maddening gap that persists in National Assessment of Educational Progress reports year after year.

Yet a solution for the reading gap was discovered four decades ago. Starting in the late 1960s, Siegfried Engelmann led a government-sponsored investigation, Project Follow Through, that compared nine teaching methods and tracked their results in more than 75,000 children from kindergarten through third grade. It found that the Direct Instruction (DI) method of teaching reading was vastly more effective than any of the others for (drum roll, please) poor kids, including black ones. DI isn't exactly complicated: Students are taught to sound out words rather than told to get the hang of recognizing words whole, and they are taught according to scripted drills that emphasize repetition and frequent student participation.

In a half-day preschool in Champaign-Urbana they founded, Engelmann and associates found that DI teaches four-year-olds to understand sounds, syllables, and rhyming. Its students went on to kindergarten reading at a second-grade level, with their mean IQ having jumped 25 points. In the 70s and 80s, similar results came from nine other sites nationwide, and since then, the evidence of DI's effectiveness has been overwhelming, raising students' reading scores in schools in Baltimore, Houston, Milwaukee, and other districts. A search for an occasion where DI was instituted and failed to improve students' reading performance would be distinctly frustrating.

Still, at this forum you would never have known Project Follow Through existed. Key moment: A teacher reminded us to keep "creativity" in mind as a teaching tool, with coos and scattered applause from the audience, and Sharpton milking it by chiming in. Indeed, schools of education have long been caught up in an idea that teaching poor kids to read requires something more than, well, teaching them how to sound out words. The poor child, the good-thinking wisdom tells us, needs tutti-frutti approaches bringing in music, rhythm, narrative, Ebonics, and so on. Distracted by the hardships in their home lives, surely they cannot be reached by just laying out the facts. That can only work for coddled children of doctors and lawyers.

But the simple fact of how well DI has worked shows that "creativity" is not what poor kids need. At the Champaign-Urbana preschool, the kids--poor kids, recall, and not many who were white--had a jolly old time with DI, especially when they found that it was (hey!) teaching them to read.

In 2001, third-grade students in the mostly black Richmond district in Virginia were scoring abysmally in reading. But once a scientifically proven reading program similar to DI was brought in, by 2005, three-quarters of black students passed the third-grade reading test. Meanwhile, out in wealthy Fairfax County, where DI was scorned as usual, the black students taking that test--despite ample funding--were passing it at the rate of merely 59 percent.

The saddest thing about the blithe neglect of Engelmann's findings is that they are the answer to the problems people at forums like these find so challenging. It's as if you're listening to people discuss the merits of moving a two-ton load of grain into a barn by spreading the ground between the load and the barn with cooking grease and heaving-ho. The solution's "creative," alright--but hasn't Engelmann already invented the wheel?

Arne Duncan, Barack Obama's appointed Secretary of Education, happens to be a signatory to Klein and Sharpton's Education Equality Project to bring "equity to an educational system that, 54 years since Brown v. Board of Education, continues to fail its highest-needs students." In Washington, Duncan might consider taking the blinders off and forcing America's urban school districts to teach poor kids to read with tools that we have known to work since the Nixon Administration.

Otherwise, all we will have is the likes of the audience at the Klein-Sharpton event coming away thinking the event was "great" because Sharpton is a jolly presence and everyone got to clap upon hearing terms like Low Expectations and Resources. I submit that this is a distinctly thin basis upon which to translate our President-Elect's call for hope into action.

John McWhorter is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and the author of Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold History of English.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: directinstruction; literacy; mcwhorter; reading; readinggap; tnr

1 posted on 01/15/2009 4:10:26 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

lol. liberals don’t like the right way, the right way is offensive


2 posted on 01/15/2009 4:12:57 PM PST by GeronL (A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood)
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To: neverdem

I wonder why phonics became a political issue. I can see Global Warming because the left wants to use it to destroy capitalism, but whats up with phonics? Why does the left want the “whole word recognition” method so much?


3 posted on 01/15/2009 4:14:00 PM PST by icwhatudo
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To: neverdem

Damn, I tbought we solved THAT problem— and many others — when we integrated the schools.

As everyone now knows, a black kid can’t learn unless he’s sitting next to a white kid.


4 posted on 01/15/2009 4:14:47 PM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: neverdem

Sounds like phonics to me. Gee, somehow all the black kids in my little parish school in the ‘50s and ‘60s learned how to read, diagram sentences, and write essays. And they managed to do it in classrooms with 50-60 kids and 1 little nun. Hmm...maybe some of those old-fashioned ways actually worked. I don’t think they even teach sentence diagramming anymore.


5 posted on 01/15/2009 4:14:57 PM PST by radiohead (Buy ammo, get your kids out of government schools, pray for the Republic.)
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To: neverdem

More liberal sophistry. The real problem is children raised in single family homes and lack of parental support. The out of wedlock birthrate for blacks is 68% and for Hispanics it is 50%. School performance among asians and whites is general higher than blacks and hispanics regardless of the economic conditions. We seem to accept black athletic prowess and superiority, but there seems to be no politically correct way to explain the disparity in academic performance.


6 posted on 01/15/2009 4:16:47 PM PST by kabar
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To: neverdem

The real solution: A culture that values education.


7 posted on 01/15/2009 4:19:56 PM PST by antiRepublicrat ("I am a firm believer that there are not two sides to every issue..." -- Arianna Huffington)
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To: radiohead

My first thought (re: “sounds like phonics”) as well...


8 posted on 01/15/2009 4:22:27 PM PST by G-dzilla
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To: radiohead

We did in my homeschool in English and in Latin.


9 posted on 01/15/2009 4:24:04 PM PST by kalee
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To: neverdem
My daughter has three boys and she has taught them all to read well before they get to kindergarten. She does it the same way that I learned it way back when - by learning the various ways that each of the letters of the alphabet can sound and then learning to sound out full words.

The oldest is in the 5th grade and is reading at about the 10th-11th grade level. The middle one is in the 1st grade reading at about a 4th grade level. The youngest is a year away from kindergarten and he is just learning to read now. Of course he can already type thanks to Toon Disney where is seems to know the names of all the games and the players.

10 posted on 01/15/2009 4:25:15 PM PST by InterceptPoint
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To: radiohead
Sounds like phonics to me. Gee, somehow all the black kids in my little parish school in the ‘50s and ‘60s learned how to read, diagram sentences, and write essays. And they managed to do it in classrooms with 50-60 kids and 1 little nun. Hmm...maybe some of those old-fashioned ways actually worked. I don’t think they even teach sentence diagramming anymore.

That was racist because it didn't acknowledge race as an excuse for failure. I mean, as a justification for special treatment. I mean compensation for non-race based inequality like income. Or something. Anyway, it was racist. That is to say, "historic".

11 posted on 01/15/2009 4:28:35 PM PST by Starfleet Command
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To: neverdem

Do you know what works even better? Parents that read to their kids.


12 posted on 01/15/2009 4:30:53 PM PST by SampleMan (Community Organizer: What liberals do when they run out of college, before they run out of Marxism.)
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To: kabar

“We seem to accept black athletic prowess and superiority, but there seems to be no politically correct way to explain the disparity in academic performance.”

It couldn’t be IQ?

The Bell Curve


13 posted on 01/15/2009 4:41:14 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: neverdem
Would it help the poor black children learn to read if we gave them all a blow horn? blow horn Pictures, Images and Photosblow horn Pictures, Images and Photosblow horn Pictures, Images and Photos
14 posted on 01/15/2009 4:42:40 PM PST by Morgana ("Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." --Frank Zappa)
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To: neverdem
It found that the Direct Instruction (DI) method of teaching reading was vastly more effective than any of the others for (drum roll, please) poor kids, including black ones.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Children in functional families are getting phonics from their parents. Parents in functional families ( knowingly or unknowingly) teach their children the sounds of the alphabet and combinations of these letters.

In other words children in functional families are successful **in spite** of their government school, not because of it. It is the parents and the children themselves who are doing 99% of the teaching and learning.

As a health professional, I informally interviewed the parents of children who are academically successful. In **every** instance ( without a single exception) the home habits of academically successful homeschoolers and institutionalized children are **identical**.

With academically successful instituionalized children, it is the parents and children who are doing 99% of the work. The school is merely sending home a curriculum. The child is succeeding **in spite** of his institutional school experiences. The parents and children are “afterschooling”.

15 posted on 01/15/2009 4:51:17 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: icwhatudo

Teaching phonics, which is learned by rote, didn’t provide the opportunity for sex education and free love. The NEA was bored with phonics and eager to teach sex.


16 posted on 01/15/2009 4:53:52 PM PST by donna (Synonyms: Feminism, Communism, Fascism, Socialism)
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To: neverdem

Hooked on phonics works!


17 posted on 01/15/2009 4:55:51 PM PST by chris_bdba
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To: icwhatudo
Why does the left want the “whole word recognition” method so much?

Because phonics are how the boomers' parents learned to read...and tried to teach them to read.

Boomers didn't like their parents, remember. And phonics is boooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring!

So, one of the boomers who went to grad school invented "whole word recognition". And an entire generation leaped to adopt it.

It was widely accepted as superior. Because it was theirs. And not their parents'.

I really don't know if that's the truth...but it wouldn't surprise me it was.

18 posted on 01/15/2009 4:57:42 PM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: radiohead
And they managed to do it in classrooms with 50-60 kids and 1 little nun.

I found an old picture with 45 kids. I remember counting them. I think the nun was there too. Here's my fourth grade class. I count 39 plus Sister Florentine.

Our Lady Queen of Martyrs, 1960, Fourth Grade (There was one other Fourth Grade class. Each grade had two classes. Single sex starting with Seventh Grade.)

19 posted on 01/15/2009 5:18:07 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: truth_seeker

So you’re saying blacks have a lower IQ?


20 posted on 01/15/2009 5:26:14 PM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: neverdem

I got a page that returned errors every time I tried to click on something. I didn’t get the picture you described.


21 posted on 01/15/2009 5:27:25 PM PST by radiohead (Buy ammo, get your kids out of government schools, pray for the Republic.)
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To: neverdem

Most likely the nun was focused on teaching and not diagnosing ADHD and filling out forms.


22 posted on 01/15/2009 5:27:38 PM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: donna
Teaching phonics, which is learned by rote, didn’t provide the opportunity for sex education and free love.

LOL! Somehow I don't see Sister Michaeline Marie teaching us about free love and how to put a condom on a cucumber.

23 posted on 01/15/2009 5:30:06 PM PST by radiohead (Buy ammo, get your kids out of government schools, pray for the Republic.)
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To: icwhatudo
"I wonder why phonics became a political issue."

Well, it's just too structured and businesslike for the touchy-feelies, but also I have wondered if a lot of marginally-qualified primary teachers and education majors just can't understand phonics themselves (such as what is a long or a short vowel sound and how to mark them when they occur in a word) and they won't admit it or try to learn how phonics works. It's not unusual for libs to take an odd sort of pride in their own ignorance and resist leaning in various areas. This does seem to show up in education majors.

A good story I heard awhile back concerns several university students sitting around a table between classes in a university commons. The education major told the group he knew how to teach anybody anything (the implication being without in-depth knowledge of the subject matter). A physics major handed the education major one of his physics texts which the education major naively opened up confidently and took a look at. He then shut the book immediately, and said no more about how he could teach anybody anything. I honestly think that when an education major tells you phonics doesn't work, he or she doesn't know a thing about phonics, and that goes for the rest of the libs who criticize it, as well. They haven't a clue what they are talking about when they say "phonics". It's sort of like saying "George Bush" for a liberal.

24 posted on 01/15/2009 5:35:09 PM PST by Irene Adler (I like this tagline much better than the one I probably typed in by mistake, somehow.)
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To: neverdem

Where would the special-ed teachers be if they lost their clients?


25 posted on 01/15/2009 5:48:10 PM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, then writes again.)
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To: radiohead

I learned with “Dick and Jane” which was the “see and say” method. It wasn’t phonics. To this day I can’t spell worth a dime.

See Spot run. Run Spot run!


26 posted on 01/15/2009 5:49:07 PM PST by donna (Synonyms: Feminism, Communism, Fascism, Socialism)
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To: radiohead

I’m afraid that I gave you a lame URL.

It’s Manhattan, NYC. Our Lady Queen of Martyrs Church and School are still standing.

http://manhattanboard.com/photogal/class/ps.shtml


27 posted on 01/15/2009 5:51:58 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: wintertime

Reschooling?


28 posted on 01/15/2009 5:53:32 PM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, then writes again.)
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To: neverdem

Elementary teachers don’t like DI because it’s not fun or creative. They don’t like it because it’s scripted, and so they feel as if a trained monkey could do it.


29 posted on 01/15/2009 5:55:36 PM PST by Amelia
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To: neverdem

Doncha know, the best way to to achieve equality of achievement amongst the races is to dumb down the entire country with crap like “whole word recognition” and “DI”. The libs, by their strangle-hold on education, have been working on benighting the masses for years and ain’t it just worked like a charm— couldn’t have elected Obama without it! Ya hear what I’m sayin’?


30 posted on 01/15/2009 5:56:35 PM PST by Dionysius
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To: donna
I learned with “Dick and Jane” which was the “see and say” method. It wasn’t phonics. To this day I can’t spell worth a dime. See Spot run. Run Spot run!

I too learned with Dick and Jane, however I can spell and always read way past my grade level, as did most of the kids I went to school with. It had to do with actual teaching and real concern on the part of the teachers.

31 posted on 01/15/2009 6:02:03 PM PST by calex59
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To: radiohead

Sounds like phonics to me. Gee, somehow all the black kids in my little parish school in the ‘50s and ‘60s learned how to read, diagram sentences, and write essays. And they managed to do it in classrooms with 50-60 kids and 1 little nun. Hmm...maybe some of those old-fashioned ways actually worked. I don’t think they even teach sentence diagramming anymore.

<<I agree, it does sound like phonics—Maria Montessori used the method in Italy over 100 years ago to teach poor children to read. Altho she was considered a maverick at the time, you are right that old-fashioned ways of past actually worked!

It is now used in Montessori pre-schools and elementary programs all over the world. As a rule, children from Montessori pre-schools enter kindergarten already reading! :)


32 posted on 01/15/2009 6:06:29 PM PST by bushwon
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To: icwhatudo

“I wonder why phonics became a political issue. I can see Global Warming because the left wants to use it to destroy capitalism, but whats up with phonics? Why does the left want the “whole word recognition” method so much?”

<<Could it be that perhaps they (the left)would not be depended on so much if everyone could read, and there would be less need for many of their programs?


33 posted on 01/15/2009 6:09:01 PM PST by bushwon
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To: icwhatudo
I wonder why phonics became a political issue.

Think of this. You're a liberal teacher with a classroom of students with wildly varying capabilities. Your greatest goal is to get the least capable student through the class without feeling dumb and giving up. What do you do?

Do you teach phonics with a few sounds to get the smart ones reading quickly while leaving the others behind?

Or do you teach "whole word recognition" to keep the more capable students on a leash so they can't get too far ahead?

34 posted on 01/15/2009 6:13:07 PM PST by dan1123 (Liberals sell it as "speech which is hateful" but it's really "speech I hate".)
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To: neverdem
The only problem is that this approach emphasizes how to sound out words, but not how to understand what you're reading. I know the Cyrillic alphabet pretty well. I don't speak Russian, but I can sound out Russian words, and once I hear them out loud, sometimes I can figure out what they mean. But that's only about 30% of the time.

My 7th and 8th grade low-level readers (almost universally Hispanic) can often sound out a word or muddle their way through a sentence. But they have no idea what they just read.

35 posted on 01/15/2009 6:13:09 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (History repeats itself because human nature is static.)
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To: InterceptPoint
My daughter has three boys and she has taught them all to read well before they get to kindergarten.

Most people know this is the solution to most public educationational problems, but this will not involve education dollars.

There is such a thing as environmental retardation and it is promoted by the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

36 posted on 01/15/2009 6:23:15 PM PST by WesternPacific (I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils!)
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To: Old Professer

And whole-language teachers too?


37 posted on 01/15/2009 6:29:56 PM PST by goldi
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To: Amelia

If that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes.


38 posted on 01/15/2009 6:32:57 PM PST by goldi
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To: goldi

Let’s face it, at this stage of a 40 year-old battle we muct accept one of two explanations — either the teachers can’t teach or the kids can’t learn.

Everybody can’t be above average.


39 posted on 01/15/2009 6:34:06 PM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, then writes again.)
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To: Old Professer

I’m not a teacher, but from what I know about whole language, I wonder why anyone would foist something like that on a beginning reader. It makes no sense to me and it’s downright cruel. Why frustrate a five-year-old kid? I believe that poor teaching methods are a major reason why kids turn into behavior problems in school.

The kids can learn if the teachers teach, unless there is something radically wrong with the student or the teacher.


40 posted on 01/15/2009 6:53:36 PM PST by goldi
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To: goldi

Yeah, I agree, but I was in a grad-level class one time with a bunch of elem ed teachers and we discussed this research — they didn’t want to believe it because it would mean giving up the fun touchy-feely stuff they do.


41 posted on 01/15/2009 7:23:21 PM PST by Amelia
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To: neverdem
McWhorter had better watch out come January 20th. When the revolution comes, he will be one of the first to disappear. (Joke, I hope!)

Progressive Education is not about teaching children facts or how to think. It is about indoctrinating them to create a new America. Go read John Dewey or Bill Ayers.

42 posted on 01/15/2009 7:28:34 PM PST by rmlew (The loyal opposition to a regime dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution are accomplices.)
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To: Irene Adler

Well, it’s just too structured and businesslike for the touchy-feelies, but also I have wondered if a lot of marginally-qualified primary teachers and education majors just can’t understand phonics themselves (such as what is a long or a short vowel sound and how to mark them when they occur in a word) and they won’t admit it or try to learn how phonics works. It’s not unusual for libs to take an odd sort of pride in their own ignorance and resist leaning in various areas. This does seem to show up in education majors.

I homeschooled four biologically unconnected black children using phonics and have excellent readers, Two oldest began college in the sr and jr years respectively and the two youngest are on track for jr high and high school. All read widely and well. They are intellegent, inquisitive and well-liked.

Phonics works.


43 posted on 01/15/2009 7:31:51 PM PST by Chickensoup (we owe HUSSEIN & Democrats the exact kind respect & loyalty that they showed us, Bush & Reagan)
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To: okie01

Best answer so far:

“the boomers who went to grad school invented “whole word recognition”. And an entire generation leaped to adopt it.

It was widely accepted as superior. Because it was theirs. And not their parents’.”


44 posted on 01/15/2009 7:32:53 PM PST by icwhatudo
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To: Irene Adler
but also I have wondered if a lot of marginally-qualified primary teachers and education majors just can't understand phonics themselves (such as what is a long or a short vowel sound and how to mark them when they occur in a word) and they won't admit it or try to learn how phonics works.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BINGO!

Does the typical elementary school teacher have the minimum intelligence needed to grasp phonics?

All government teachers should be require to take and pass, with a "C", the same Calculus I course that engineers and scientists are required to take. And...There should be no separate class for them either. They should sit side by side with the science students. If they can pass calculus, they can understand the rules of phonics.

Do that and the average IQ of the the typical government teacher would gradually increase.

45 posted on 01/16/2009 6:51:21 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: calex59
We had the Dick and Jane readers when I was in school, but I didn't learn a thing from them. Batman, Spider-Man, Jack Kirby and Stan Lee taught me how to read.

"If you make it interesting enough, kids will figure out how to read it. If it's boring, you can't make it simple enough for them to read." -- Stan Lee

46 posted on 01/16/2009 6:58:31 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Richard Kimball
Actually, my mother taught me how to read and I could read before I started school. I was 5 when I checked out(with my mother's help)my first library book.

I was small for my age and when I would walk to the library(when I was about 6 or 7)and check out books they would always tell me that the book was "too old" for me, but I would read them anyway.

I also loved the comic books and I was bored to death with "See, dick, see spot, see spot run". I thought that teachers must be total idiots if that was the best material they could come up with.

However, I do think that most kids learned from them because our teachers actually taught and cared what happened to the kids. The parents also all helped and taught their children(most of them anyway). Kids who grew up in the 40s and 50s with me could all read, most of them above their grade levels.

Overall I would have to say I was not sorry to see the old Dick, Jane, and Spot books fade into history but they did the trick with good teachers.

47 posted on 01/16/2009 7:43:37 AM PST by calex59
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To: calex59
I found the Dick and Jane readers to be irrelevant. They didn't do much harm, but I didn't see them doing much good. Mrs. Stallings, my fourth grade teacher always set aside one hour after lunch and read us books. She read us Heidi, all the Little House Books, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Little Women, Little Men, The Jungle Book, and several others. Those captured my imagination.

I talked to my old elementary school principal quite a few years after desegregation. He had taken an early retirement. He told me he left because he didn't sign up to deal with rapes in the bathroom at an elementary school. He also said the school came under pressure not to correct grammar because correcting grammar was perceived as being racist. Many phrases are more common to blacks, such as "We be going" instead of "We are going." Since only black children used those phrases, correcting them was considered racist. One of the reasons tests are mostly multiple choice now is that they are less subjective in grading. Grading written answers is more subjective, and grading essays is highly subjective. Most students that come into my college classes now cannot write a coherent paragraph because they've never had to write essays.

Today, there is a huge amount of pressure for equality of outcome. This is not possible. Therefore, grading standards are lowered until the lowest denominator passes, and exceptional students are neglected. The simple fact is that some people will fight for their right to be left behind.

48 posted on 01/16/2009 8:27:00 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Richard Kimball
Yep, have to agree with you. My teachers used to read to us also, and after about the 3rd grade would suggest books, and later assign them to us, to read out of class. They didn't have to force me to read, I loved it and still do. I loved the classics(or what used to be termed classics, don't know if they still are or not)and I was also into the science fiction of the day and found it fascinating that back in the very early 1900s there were many science fiction books written about the marvelous horseless carriages that in the future(their future)would be able to do 50 miles per hour or better!

I can't understand people who don't like to read and I agree that some people will fight to stay stupid.

49 posted on 01/16/2009 10:04:33 AM PST by calex59
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