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Microsoft Ordered to Delete Browser
Associated Press / New York Times ^ | January 16, 2009

Posted on 01/17/2009 3:46:50 AM PST by reaganaut1

BRUSSELS (AP) — The European Union said Friday that Microsoft’s practice of selling the Internet Explorer browser together with its Windows operating system violated the union’s antitrust rules.

It ordered the software giant to untie the browser from its operating system in the 27-nation union, enabling makers of rival browsers to compete fairly.

“Microsoft’s tying of Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system harms competition between Web browsers, undermines product innovation and ultimately reduces consumer choice,” the E.U. said in a statement.

It gave Microsoft eight weeks to respond, adding that the company could defend its position in a hearing if it found that useful.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: eu; msn
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To: reaganaut1

This is another ridiculous attempt at extracting more huge fines from M$. The market share of Internet Explorer is already dropping as is, so people are finding their choices. When the EC forced M$ to ship an OS to Europe without Windows Media Player, it was very unpopular with the people.


51 posted on 01/17/2009 5:56:21 AM PST by Zack Attack
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To: reaganaut1

Bookmark


52 posted on 01/17/2009 6:05:36 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: reaganaut1

I have Windows and I still use Firefox. Firefox is free too, but youi need a browser to download it....


53 posted on 01/17/2009 6:14:03 AM PST by Homer1
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To: SeeSharp

You said — “M$ ought to just tell the EU to live without Windows and Office from now on.”

That would be cool. They could start using the Apple office package and Mac OS X. That would be a boon to Apple...


54 posted on 01/17/2009 6:14:47 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Fresh Wind

You said — “Careful, you’re not allowed to say anything negative about Apple or anything positive about Microsoft on this board.”

Hmmmm..., that sounds like a good rule..., I’ll take it...

LOL...


55 posted on 01/17/2009 6:15:48 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Radio Free American?
Remember the days before MS? Commodore, IBM, Tandy, Curtis Sinclair and more. No standards and one system to the next could not communicate or even share files with each other.

Um, I clearly remember my TRS-80 CoCo communicating with a DEC-10, and other unlike machines. CompuServe, my college campus... This was before M$.

I can assure you standards did exist before M$. They had to to some extent. Now in the area of LAN, there was no clearly dominate topology and/or protocol for some time. And back before Ethernet and TCP/IP became dominate, one company made a lot of money by being able to accommodate and integrate all those differing networks; communicate, share files and print services from a heterogeneous mix of machines and networks: Novell.

56 posted on 01/17/2009 6:17:01 AM PST by AFreeBird
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To: Woodman

You said — “Uninstalling IE on any windows OS since Win95 would render the GUI almost inoperable.”

From my point of view, that sounds like a good idea... LOL..


57 posted on 01/17/2009 6:17:12 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: svxdave
No sorrow here. Microsoft cheats. Microsoft used its operating system to promote Word which killed off.....

I dunno, I would call it a hell of a good marketing plan

58 posted on 01/17/2009 6:19:14 AM PST by Las Vegas Ron (The tree of liberty is getting mighty dry)
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To: AFreeBird
FTP or WGET come to mind. Of course you can open up your package manager and pull it from a repository.

Oh please, that's not an option for the masses. I teach basic computing (among other courses) and if people don't even know how to use a mouse correctly you think that they're capable of installing a browser? NOT!!! There are a lot of people who would never be able to access the web if their computers didn't come with a browser. Not everyone is a computer techie.

59 posted on 01/17/2009 6:25:27 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: reaganaut1

So, if I produce a keyboard driver, a sound driver, a font engine, or a graphics motif I can sue to get the EU to demand Microsoft remove those from its OS as well??

Stupid Euroweenies.


60 posted on 01/17/2009 6:45:47 AM PST by CodeToad
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To: reaganaut1

Here is the response I’d love to see from Microsoft to the EU:

Okay, we will stop selling all Microsoft products to the EU. NO IE. NO Windows. NO Office.

We’re outta here!


61 posted on 01/17/2009 7:19:33 AM PST by seanrobins (blog.seanrobins.com)
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To: reaganaut1

The Chronic stupidity of the Euro- this is exactly what caused the recession in 2001, when the AG accused MS of being a monopoly becuse Explorer was a part of the MS OS. Within weeks all venture capital to web commerce start-ups moved to safer investments like real estate and foreign markets.


62 posted on 01/17/2009 7:28:47 AM PST by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: reaganaut1
It is convenient for Windows to come with the Internet Explorer browser, and they can install alternatives such as FireFox in a few minutes.

Exactly right.

Anyone that doesn't know how to download and install a different browser on their computer is too dumb to even use a computer to begin with.
63 posted on 01/17/2009 7:36:30 AM PST by adorno
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To: reaganaut1

Imagine what the EU would do if Microsoft simply stopped selling anything in the EU.


64 posted on 01/17/2009 7:43:13 AM PST by BuffaloJack
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To: reaganaut1

“vertical monopolist”

UUUOOOOOWWWW! I like that! Never seen that one before!


65 posted on 01/17/2009 7:59:57 AM PST by NucSubs ( Cognitive dissonance: Conflict or anxiety resulting from inconsistency between beliefs and actions)
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To: svxdave

Netscape - the company - killed Netscape - the product.


66 posted on 01/17/2009 8:03:03 AM PST by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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To: reaganaut1
“Microsoft’s tying of Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system harms competition between Web browsers, undermines product innovation and ultimately reduces consumer choice,” the E.U. said in a statement.

How?!? I run XP, but I also have Opera, Chrome and Firefox, so I can choose which one I want.

67 posted on 01/17/2009 8:04:54 AM PST by dfwgator (1996 2006 2008 - Good Things Come in Threes)
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To: Izzy Dunne

Apple didn’t come up with the widget concept - others did.


68 posted on 01/17/2009 8:08:47 AM PST by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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To: Izzy Dunne

Not true - Their has never been a time that what you stated was true.


69 posted on 01/17/2009 8:10:23 AM PST by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: svxdave
Microsoft used its operating system to promote Word which killed off Word Perfect.

It did? Really?

I never knew Word came bundled with the operating system. And to think I paid good money to purchase Word - because my secretary hated Wordperfect.

71 posted on 01/17/2009 8:54:25 AM PST by CharacterCounts (1984 was supposed to be a work of fiction, not a how-to manual.)
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To: Star Traveler
To each his own. Use an alternative, but don't force the manufacturer to remove working pieces.

How would you like it if you couldn't buy a car and take it home with rims for your tires simply because other rim manufacturers thought it was unfair that GM provided them in the cost of the car? I would support if you wanted to regulate that you can buy a car without rims and be compensated for the savings, but I would not support that you should mandate that rims don't come on the car. I would also support GM charging you special handling fees for trying to move the car around on transporter rims...

Once again, if you do not want to use windows, don't. The EU has the same option.

72 posted on 01/17/2009 9:05:48 AM PST by Woodman ("One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives." PW)
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To: svxdave
No sorrow here. Microsoft cheats. Microsoft used its operating system to promote Word which killed off Word Perfect. Microsoft used its operating system to promote Excel which killed off Lotus 1,2,3. Microsoft used its operating system to promote Explorer which killed off Netscape.

MS didn't kill off Word Perfect... "Word Perfect for Windows" and Novell killed Word Perfect. Do you really remember Lotus 123? I remember having to install 3 different versions of Lotus on computers, just to allow spreadsheets with embedded macros to continue to work. Granted, Excel isn't much better, but MS really didn't kill Lotus, as much as IBM's purchase of the company hurt it. I know that it's fashionable to label Bill Gates as the Anti-Christ, and Microsoft as "The Great Satan," but try to get a grip. Yes, MS has (in the past, and often continues to do so today) used heavy handed (some will call them predatory) capitalistic tactics to wipe out competitors. And they, like any other company, don't like competition. But let's be realistic: The fall of these other companies wasn't completely Microsoft's doing.

People realized that they wanted integrated applications, where they didn't need to learn an entirely different user interface in order to start using a new application. And people wanted to be able to integrate information from different applications together, like being able to paste live data into their documents. That led to a number of integrated application packages from a lot of companies... For instance, Word Perfect had their package which included "Word Perfect," "Plan Perfect," "Data Perfect," and even "Word Perfect Office" which would eventually become "GroupWise," Novell's messaging system. Lotus had their own integrated system. And different word processors had their own niche markets. For instance, most serious scientific desktop publishers used Aldus Pagemaker on Sun workstations since they often needed a WYSIWYG interface, while those who didn't would often use WordStar. Word Perfect was at home in law offices, and there were a bunch of document management systems that grew up around it. And Microsoft Word (pre-windows) was a solid performer that had a pretty good reputation. Heck, even Informix had an integrated package, but for the life of me, I can't remember the name of it. We're talking back in the days of the Intel 80286 processor.

But Microsoft was the first to really push the idea of a fully integrated desktop user interface, that extended into the applications. There were others, like GEM, but they failed, and NOT because of Microsoft.

Microsoft stole Apple’s technology to develop Windows. Apple only responded in court too late and too little.

MS didn't "steal" technology from Apple (though they did from some other companies, like IBM and Stack Electronics), any more than Apple stole the technology of Xerox's SmallTalk environment from PARC. In both cases, they (Apple and Microsoft) "saw" a better user interface, and built upon it. You're referring to the "look & feel" law suits. But I'll tell you, while Windows "look & feel" was similar to that of Apple's OS, the original Mac and LISA OS looked identical to the Smalltalk interface used by Xerox at PARC. Not "similar," but identical. So by your standards, that would make Apple "more guilty" of "stealing" than Microsoft.

No question about it, Microsoft cheats

Take a chill pill, Dave.

Mark

73 posted on 01/17/2009 9:19:22 AM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: DB
Hardly the same thing as Netscape trying to compete with free. Microsoft did kill Netscape.

Netscape had a weird business model. They wanted to make money from their server side, but it was competing against free products, like Apache and IIS.

Mark

74 posted on 01/17/2009 9:22:09 AM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: SeeSharp
M$ ought to just tell the EU to live without Windows and Office from now on.


"I'm going to abandon a market of 499,000,000 to teach them that they can't possibly live without me."

"Great idea, P.C. You have my enthusiastic support."

75 posted on 01/17/2009 9:24:26 AM PST by Polybius
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To: Dumpster Baby
I've never understood the whole Internet Explorer furor.

I agree. It's sort of like the FTC demanding that automakers not be allowed to install car stereos in new automobiles, because of unfair competition - But then it never seemed to hurt the business of Alpine, Blapunkt, Pioneer, Dennon, Kenwood, etc...

It's more about sour grapes AND the opportunity to throw their weight around against the 800 pound gorilla (Microsoft).

Mark

76 posted on 01/17/2009 9:25:55 AM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: Woodman
"The problem with decoupling IE is that it really isn't decoupled. Outlook and Explorer are both intertwined with the functionality as is the desktop and menus. Uninstalling IE on any windows OS since Win95 would render the GUI almost inoperable."

That's true. They can't "delete" it. You can open up "My Computer" to look at your files, and type an internet address at the top instead.

In an American anti-trust case about this a few years back, a judge ordered MS to delete IE even though MS explained to him what would happen. So they did it, and produced an inoperable computer. The judge got pissed. Lawyers.

77 posted on 01/17/2009 9:37:10 AM PST by mlo
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To: AFreeBird
And back before Ethernet and TCP/IP became dominate, one company made a lot of money by being able to accommodate and integrate all those differing networks; communicate, share files and print services from a heterogeneous mix of machines and networks: Novell.

And before someone comes along and tells of how Novell was killed off by Microsoft, as a former Novell Master CNE (since 1989) and Master CNI (instructor), I can say without a doubt that Novell killed off Novell's market share. Great technology, but their marketing deparment couldn't figure out how to sell space heaters to eskimos!

My favorite example was when Novell bought UNIX... They actually positioned it AS A COMPETITOR to Novell's NetWare servers!

Mark

78 posted on 01/17/2009 9:42:55 AM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: wolfpat
For all the problems with Microsoft, just think that most of us wouldn’t even have a computer if Microsoft hadn’t made it easy for us.

There were plenty of home computers before Microsoft. My first commercially-built computer was a CP/M machine -- an O/S that ran on different hardware platforms. CP/M-86 lost out to DOS, though, and that's where Microsoft really got its boost.

79 posted on 01/17/2009 10:13:18 AM PST by sionnsar (Iran Azadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY)|http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com/|RCongressIn2Years)
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To: Nateman
I'm no fan of Microsoft ... This meddling is worse.

Agreed on both points. My Kubuntu system installed with Konquerer already installed -- it's a filesystem explorer / it's a browser. (It may have had Firefox also, don't recall.) Are they going to make Kubuntu unbundle too?

80 posted on 01/17/2009 10:16:26 AM PST by sionnsar (Iran Azadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY)|http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com/|RCongressIn2Years)
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To: CaspersGh0sts
That was exactly what I was wondering. How do I install an alternate browser without internet access in the first place?
81 posted on 01/17/2009 10:16:59 AM PST by stayathomemom (Cat herder and empty nester)
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To: sionnsar

That’s true. Those computers were okay if you wanted to learn to program a computer, or if you wanted to hire someone to do software for your specific business. Otherwise they were worthless to the home user.

My first computer was a TRS-80 Model I with 4K of RAM and no disc drive. It didn’t take me long to realize I didn’t want to be a computer programmer.


82 posted on 01/17/2009 10:27:02 AM PST by wolfpat (Revolt, and re-establish the Constitution as the law of the land!)
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To: wolfpat
The office where I worked used the CP/M machines just fine. Wordstar and Calcstar were two end-user apps I remember the folks in the front office using.

I worked for the company that made my CP/M machine and believe me, most of our sales were not to programmers or hobbyists.

83 posted on 01/17/2009 10:42:59 AM PST by sionnsar (Iran Azadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY)|http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com/|RCongressIn2Years)
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To: MarkL
Yea, I know. I was a CNE too, been working with the stuff since 85. My first cert was actually signed (not stamped) by Ray himself.

The thing is: They actually did some good things for UNIX. Too bad they couldn't do anything with it. Now if Novell could have had MS' marketing, and MS could have had Novell's engineering...

I do like what they've been doing with Linux. SUSE is a great distro IMHO.

84 posted on 01/17/2009 11:36:53 AM PST by AFreeBird
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To: Izzy Dunne

So it is a crime to tie a browser to an OS and to provide said browser for free....

Strange world we live in these days...


85 posted on 01/17/2009 12:31:11 PM PST by DB
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To: angkor

“You want a replacement for IE? Go to the Internet and download it in one minute, and another one minute to install it.”

As I stated earlier, assuming you can get to the internet without IE installed on a new computer...


86 posted on 01/17/2009 3:16:32 PM PST by CaspersGh0sts
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To: reaganaut1
It's not the business of government to tell Microsoft what it can include in its operating system.

Oh Yes it can; it is the EU.

Coming to a city near you at the end of the month.


87 posted on 01/17/2009 3:39:51 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: svxdave

“Microsoft used its operating system to promote Word which killed off Word Perfect”

Word Perfect was a great program.


88 posted on 01/17/2009 3:43:47 PM PST by Rebelbase
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To: reaganaut1

Microsoft should start selling IE and bundling a free copy of Windows.


89 posted on 01/17/2009 4:05:25 PM PST by gitmo (I am the latte-sipping, NYT-reading, Volvo-driving, no-gun-owning, effete, PC, arrogant liberal. -BO)
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To: CaspersGh0sts

I’m using Chrome. Didn’t cost me a penny. EU goons are idiots.


90 posted on 01/17/2009 4:13:23 PM PST by gitmo (I am the latte-sipping, NYT-reading, Volvo-driving, no-gun-owning, effete, PC, arrogant liberal. -BO)
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To: CaspersGh0sts
As I stated earlier, assuming you can get to the internet without IE installed on a new computer...

Well indeed you can.

You can configure your TCP/IP settings with the DOS command "ipconfig".

Then you can fire up DOS "ftp" and download Firefox from the Mozilla ftp server:

Index of ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/

Once downloaded via DOS ftp, you install Firefox.

So unless the EU considers MS-DOS under Windows to be "anticompetetive" - or maybe that Windows itself is "a monopoly" - you can indeed make use of many browsers without resorting to IE in any way shape or form, ever.

You can also delete the IE icons from you Windows Deskstop and Start Menu (as I did long ago) and be done with it almost forever.

The EU is fighting an amazingly stupid battle that was decided by the American computer user (aka "the American computer buyer") more than a decade ago, back in the days when there were first several GUIs (VisiOn, etc) and later many browsers (Netscape, Mosaic, etc).

91 posted on 01/17/2009 4:13:28 PM PST by angkor ("All you could hope for ...in the world's most august deliberative body." - Baldwin on Franken)
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To: angkor
Well indeed you can.

You can configure your TCP/IP settings with the DOS command "ipconfig". Then you can fire up DOS "ftp" and download Firefox from the Mozilla ftp server: Index of ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ Once downloaded via DOS ftp, you install Firefox.


Oh, I know you can. :) But that's an awful lot of work for your average computer user. And let's face it, forcing someone to go back to MS-DOS is a bit antiquated in today's computer world.

I know we're on the same page. I just think it's absolute foolishness for the EU courts to even be talking in these terms. As so many others have stated, there's no shortage of free browsers out there.
92 posted on 01/17/2009 4:35:02 PM PST by CaspersGh0sts
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To: sionnsar
There were plenty of home computers before Microsoft. My first commercially-built computer was a CP/M machine -- an O/S that ran on different hardware platforms. CP/M-86 lost out to DOS, though, and that's where Microsoft really got its boost.

I disagree. "Home computers" at the time were for hobbyists, NOT what are today's "home users." They were for people who loved technology, wanted to program, business owners, or people who wanted to game. There were some serious parallels between the sort of person who bought a home computer and amateur radio operators.

I wonder if another company would have "stepped up" had Microsoft not come along. But I can say, with all certainty, that it was Microsoft that turned computers into what are for all intents and purposes, small home appliances, that you can pick up just about anywhere, and usable by "the masses."

Mark

93 posted on 01/17/2009 4:49:51 PM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: reaganaut1

Does this mean Apple will have to delete its browser?


94 posted on 01/17/2009 4:55:28 PM PST by js1138
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To: reaganaut1
While they're at it, why don't they demand that TV and monitor makers stop putting speakers in their visual devices because it unfairly harms the speaker manufacturers, like Altec-Lansing and Logitech. < /sarc>

-PJ

95 posted on 01/17/2009 4:59:47 PM PST by Political Junkie Too (You can never overestimate the Democrats' ability to overplay their hand.)
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To: CaspersGh0sts

OK, glad I could demonstrate some useless geekishness :)


96 posted on 01/17/2009 5:01:43 PM PST by angkor ("All you could hope for ...in the world's most august deliberative body." - Baldwin on Franken)
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To: Repeal The 17th
...link does not work.

Opps! Here is another try

97 posted on 01/18/2009 8:51:23 AM PST by Nateman (If liberals aren't screaming you're doing it wrong.)
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To: Woodman
The problem with decoupling IE is that it really isn't decoupled. Outlook and Explorer are both intertwined with the functionality as is the desktop and menus. Uninstalling IE on any windows OS since Win95 would render the GUI almost inoperable.

That's the point. By MS making Explorer intertwined with the MSOS, they give Explorer a monopolistic competitive advantage among browsers. You can use Firefox or something, but you can't NOT use Explorer. So, most Mom and Pops won't bother with Firefox.

98 posted on 01/18/2009 10:00:13 AM PST by LexBaird (Behold, thou hast drinken of the Aide of Kool, and are lost unto Men.)
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To: Fresh Wind

99 posted on 01/18/2009 10:04:18 AM PST by Colonial Warrior (Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction.)
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To: MarkL
. It's sort of like the FTC demanding that automakers not be allowed to install car stereos in new automobiles, because of unfair competition

No, it's more like the car manufacturer making it so your car won't run if you remove the factory stereo, so anyone who wants that spiff Blaupunkt, that doesn't cause the electric doors to randomly unlock when you tune into some stations, has to mount it on the dashboard. Meanwhile, the POS factory stereo sits there and takes up space.

100 posted on 01/18/2009 10:17:24 AM PST by LexBaird (Behold, thou hast drinken of the Aide of Kool, and are lost unto Men.)
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