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Stemming the Tide - Letís pay science and math teachers more.
City Journal ^ | 16 January 2009 | Marcus A. Winters

Posted on 01/20/2009 7:55:40 PM PST by neverdem

The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, an international test of fourth- and eighth-grade student achievement, recently released its latest results. As in prior years, the mean U.S. scores were roughly on par with those in most developed nations in Europe, though well below those in Asia. But students in other developed nations far outpaced U.S. students in top-level science scores. For instance, only 10 percent of American eighth-graders performed at the highest level in science, placing the U.S. 11th among the tested nations and well behind countries such as England (17 percent), Japan (17 percent), and Singapore (an astounding 32 percent).

It’s no surprise, then, that the U.S. also lags the world in the proportion of students earning a college degree in technical fields. According to the National Science Foundation, only about 17 percent of U.S. college graduates earned a degree in subjects related to science, technology, engineering, or mathematics (STEM for short). That’s well below the world average of 26 percent. We trail not only economic competitors such as China (52 percent), India (24 percent), Japan (64 percent), and Russia (33 percent), but even Mexico (25 percent) and the nations of the Middle East (24 percent). These figures become even more disturbing when we consider that American colleges grant many of their STEM-related degrees to foreign students, the majority of whom go back home.

American schools simply don’t produce the scientists and engineers whom we need to remain competitive in a technology-driven world. In their excellent recent book The Race Between Education and Technology, Harvard University economists Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz convincingly show that the economic and political dominance of the U.S. throughout the twentieth century was based on its better-educated workforce, which could create and swiftly adapt to new technologies. But we’ve been losing that edge since our educational attainment began to stagnate in the mid-1970s—and as more nations surpass us in education, they also chip away at our economic dominance.

The troubles in STEM education mirror the broader problems of American K–12 education. The primary issue—and our best chance to make improvements—concerns teacher quality. A wide body of research has consistently identified teacher quality as the most important means within a school’s control to improve student learning. That likely goes double for STEM subjects, which require instructors not only to be knowledgeable but also to be able to convey difficult technical information in a graspable way. Attracting such people to STEM teaching requires a compensation system that recognizes their talents. Unfortunately, though, the way we pay public-school teachers today—based exclusively on seniority and number of advanced degrees held—doesn’t work.

Research consistently finds that these two attributes have little or nothing to do with teachers’ actual ability to improve student learning. Paying the same salaries to teachers of widely varying effectiveness is inefficient, to say the least. But another big problem with the current pay system, especially when it comes to STEM teaching, is that it compensates teachers in different subjects equally, too, and this ignores labor-market realities. With the same number of years in the classroom and the same number of advanced degrees, a high school gym teacher earns the same salary as a high school chemistry teacher.

A better system would pay STEM teachers more than their counterparts. After all, the skills required to teach STEM subjects are often more valuable in the broader labor market than those required to teach most other subjects. Of course, not every good math teacher would make a good engineer, and vice versa. But an individual with math and technology skills has more attractive job opportunities than, say, someone with the skills to teach elementary-level reading. The bottom line: public schools must dig deeper into the labor skill pool, hiring STEM teachers of lower quality than teachers in other subjects.

A system of differential teacher pay, on the other hand, could not only attract new teachers from the outside labor market, but also encourage the current crop of teacher talent to move into STEM subjects, which they’re currently shunning for understandable reasons—the coursework required to become a teacher in a non-technical subject is much less demanding than what’s necessary for STEM subjects. We need to give these people a financial motive to take the more difficult STEM path. Teachers’ unions support increasing the pay of STEM teachers—so long as the pay of all other teachers goes up as well. But spreading dollars around equally means giving small increases to all teachers instead of large pay increases to those we most need.

We can still ensure that this century will be as much an American Century as the last—but only if we address our students’ performance gap in math and science. And the best way to do that is to incentivize more teachers to master the hard stuff.

Marcus A. Winters is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: education; science; scienceeducation; stem; teacherpay; teachers
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To: patton

Good grief, get it right.

Base 2 uses only the digits 0 and 1, it’s also called binary and used in computers. What we write as 2 is represented as 10.

(Hence the computer nerd shirt inscription: “There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don’t.”)

If you use base 3, you have the digits 0, 1 and 2, then 2 + 2 = 11, not 22.


51 posted on 01/20/2009 9:33:15 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Coyoteman

if I wanted a “parade,” I would’ve marched at Obama’s inauguration. Damn straight, I want more federalism and more freedom.


52 posted on 01/20/2009 9:36:10 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: swmobuffalo
Despite what a lot of people think, science teachers teach just that science.

I would like to see science teachers teach even more science and less nonsense.

And the anti-science religious fundamentalism that is being pushed in some areas has no role in science education.

Look up the decline in Arab science--there were many centuries when learning was largely restricted to Arab lands; it certainly wasn't in Europe. Look up why that Arab science and learning declined.

53 posted on 01/20/2009 9:40:58 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: metmom

The teaching of evolution in schools has had a monopoly for decades.

You have yet to demonstrate that the current decline in math and science scores are due to the teaching of creation or religious fundamentalist beliefs.

The more God has been removed from the public education system, the worse it’s gotten. If you have any evidence to the contrary, by all means, feel free to post it.


Coyotemans’ doing two things...he’s projecting again and he’s attacking normal Christian people because he knows he doesn’t have a leg to stand on and the godless liberal NEA IS wholly responsbile for this mess!

He wants to shift blame like a typical liberal coward so he won’t have to account for his own failed agenda that’s truly responsible.

Yeah, you’re right metmom, it’s been WAAAAAAAY too long that the godless NEA liberals have had a grip on public schools, and they sue anything that remotely challenges their godless cult, so noooo...that dog won’t hunt!

But hey, he can be proud, God’s been stomped out of public schools and after all he’s enlightened and all that because of it!


54 posted on 01/20/2009 9:49:44 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: ari-freedom
if I wanted a “parade,” I would’ve marched at Obama’s inauguration. Damn straight, I want more federalism and more freedom.

Ever stop to consider why we haven't won a war since the '60s?

We don't have the national will because of the Balkanization of that era--with liberals taking over a lot of our institutions (particularly education and the media).

Now immigration and the increasing ghetto problem within large cities is making it even worse.

And you want to further subdivide this country by religious denomination? Well, I'm sure the Muslims will be eager to help.

Study some history and see what the end result of this kind of Balkanization will most likely be. It certainly won't be the type of a country you think you are promoting, and you won't like the result one bit.

55 posted on 01/20/2009 9:50:54 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom

Jeez coyoteman....we have a model of your ideology in Aurope...after the secular humanists demanded to stomp Christianity out of schools and the public realm with their incessant political correctness, militant Islam back-filled the void/vacuum left behind.

NO THANKS!

Liberalism is a disease and you’re supporting it as evidenced by your silly drivel!


56 posted on 01/20/2009 10:00:18 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: ari-freedom

“how about: let’s pay students if they actually learn math and science”

We do. They’re called engineers and doctors.


57 posted on 01/20/2009 10:00:39 PM PST by stormer
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To: neverdem
teachers are teachers....they are not engineers, pilots,researchers,doctors, pharmacists,architects,rocket scientists........they get paid enough......

no rocket scientist gets every weekend, every holiday, "curriculum" days,spring break, and entire summers off, let alone sick time and personal time to boot....

lets get real here....

maybe a better approach to having better qualified and better prepared teachers is to actually require them to major in something besides "education"....

58 posted on 01/20/2009 10:01:02 PM PST by cherry
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To: tpanther

If you can’t read and reason better than you have exhibited in that post, and dozens like it, just don’t bother posting to me.


59 posted on 01/20/2009 10:06:24 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: stormer

“We do. They’re called engineers and doctors.”

correction: let’s pay OUR students if they actually learn math and science


60 posted on 01/20/2009 10:08:39 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: ari-freedom

So what approach to you take to Calculus, geometric ? IAC, I am reminded of the 1960s when a lot of bright people developed a very intense physics and a mathematics curriculum for the schools, and it got all “frakked up,” because the teachers by and large, couldn’t handle it and because parents couldn’t relate to it. So we get kids with a lot of jargon who can’t do simple arithmetic, because the schools can’t figure that arithmetic and algebra are different fields. We then have the further complication of the civil rights revolution and black kids who are even more ignorant than the white ones are brought into the mix. So the schools—being the political institutions they are—thow up their hands and begin the process of dumbing down that continues to this very day.


61 posted on 01/20/2009 10:18:01 PM PST by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: RobbyS

forget the teachers and parents. Go directly to the kids and pay them. Make it competitive. Do that and the kids will push themselves despite poor teachers and curriculum. If they have internet, they will find out the best way to learn on their own. Everyone else will; learning math will be part of the culture.


62 posted on 01/20/2009 10:39:06 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: Coyoteman

The balkanization is largely owning to the the effort of the schools to alienate kids from their parents. The mission of the schools is now to force kids into post-modernism, which posits a world without truth but paradoxically a “correct” way of looking at it. Many people see them as teaching “values” that are the opposite of what they—the parents— were taught at home and in school. For instance the homosexual agenda, which seems to have been adopted wholesale by our social elites, is now being incorporated in school agenda, and all opposition is treated as bigotry. Christian symbols are proscribed but Muslim symbols are embraced. Traditional American history is being abandoned in favor of a history that fits the agenda of liberal pressure groups. The very notion of an American nationality is under attack. Pretty soon Spanish will become the second language in the schools, and we are likely to see repeated in the United States what has occured in Canada.


63 posted on 01/20/2009 10:39:32 PM PST by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: neverdem
"Stemming the Tide - Let’s pay science and math teachers more."

No! Cut teacher pay! Most teachers are a big part of the problem. There aren't enough technical and engineering jobs for western culture workers anyway.


64 posted on 01/20/2009 10:43:37 PM PST by familyop (combat engineer (combat), National Guard, '89-'96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote, http://falconparty.com/)
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To: ari-freedom

This will work only with the minoroity of kids who are self-directed. There are plenty of bright kids, kids with high I.Q. who have no idea of what information serves them well and what does not. The autodidact historically is a person who cannot compete with a dimmer but better directed kid. The former is, more often than not, like the natural athlete who doesn’t know the “fundamentals” of the game. Now I am not talking about the Bill Gateses or the
Tom Edisons of this world, but the usual.


65 posted on 01/20/2009 10:47:53 PM PST by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: neverdem
For instance, only 10 percent of American eighth-graders performed at the highest level in science, placing the U.S. 11th among the tested nations and well behind countries such as England (17 percent), Japan (17 percent), and Singapore (an astounding 32 percent).

These statistics are from the Trends In International Math and Science study produced by the Dept of Ed. The full report is posted on their website as a PDF and may be viewed by clicking here.

Look up US student scores by demographic. Then cross reference that against the demographic that educationally successful places like Japan and Singapore don't have.

People with an IQ of 88 aren't going to succeed in logically based fields. No matter how much you pay their teachers.

66 posted on 01/20/2009 11:02:18 PM PST by CGTRWK
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To: RobbyS

Nobody wants to be the only kid in class that doesn’t win $$$. If they can’t find what they are looking for on the internet then they will study for 2 hours instead of 1. They will cajole their parents into taking them to Kumon instead of extra soccer practice.


67 posted on 01/20/2009 11:05:09 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: CGTRWK

“People with an IQ of 88 aren’t going to succeed in logically based fields.”

perhaps not. But they’d be better off than others with similar IQ’s that don’t bother to learn anything.


68 posted on 01/20/2009 11:09:34 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: neverdem
American schools simply don’t produce the scientists and engineers whom we need to remain competitive in a technology-driven world.

Look at the research he cites: Harvard University economists Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz convincingly show that the economic and political dominance of the U.S. throughout the twentieth century was based on its better-educated workforce, which could create and swiftly adapt to new technologies.

Now were we creative and adaptive because we were well-educated, or were we well-educated because we were creative and adaptive?

But never mind that question. The author doesn't cite any stats showing a shortfall in science jobs. Fortunately, Business Week does.

The Science Education Myth: Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

"Michael Teitelbaum, vice-president of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, which, among other things, works to improve science education, says this research highlights the troubling weaknesses in many conventional policy prescriptions. Proposals to increase the supply of scientists and engineers rapidly, without any objective evidence of comparably rapid growth in attractive career opportunities for such professionals, might actually be doing harm."

"the new report showed that from 1985 to 2000 about 435,000 U.S. citizens and permanent residents a year graduated with bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees in science and engineering. Over the same period, there were about 150,000 jobs added annually to the science and engineering workforce. These numbers don't include those retiring or leaving a profession but do indicate the size of the available talent pool. It seems that nearly two-thirds of bachelor's graduates and about a third of master's graduates take jobs in fields other than science and engineering."

A good citizenry needs training in basic grammar, logic, rhetoric, and history to see through the shennanigans of its leaders. A minimal arts education will also expose manipulative Hollywood techniques, while physical education will train students to be strong and helpful in their community and, for the boys, in the armed forces.

All these areas are

69 posted on 01/20/2009 11:13:11 PM PST by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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To: ari-freedom
“People with an IQ of 88 aren’t going to succeed in logically based fields.”

perhaps not. But they’d be better off than others with similar IQ’s that don’t bother to learn anything.

They'd be better off to invest their time in another field that suits their capabilities. Putting someone with no knack for math through four years of higher math and science isn't going to give you an accountant or a programmer or a chemist, it's going to give you a tradesman four years junior to where he ought to be.

70 posted on 01/20/2009 11:22:10 PM PST by CGTRWK
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To: metmom

He just shows up regularly to let us know there are still Conservatives who worship themselves and their knowledge. Pray for him instead, I am sure he would love that. God has been rejected from the schools and He left, shaking the dust off his sandals and taking His blessing too.
The only person to ever pull my son out of his academic spiral into failure, was a Godly math teacher. He has been successful ever since.


71 posted on 01/21/2009 2:37:56 AM PST by momincombatboots (The last experience of the sinner is the horrible enslavement of the freedom he desired. -C.S. Lewis)
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To: theBuckwheat

Where did you get that figure from ?


72 posted on 01/21/2009 2:51:30 AM PST by sonic109
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To: ari-freedom
our entire approach is screwed up. We need to teach calculus first, then physics (I’m also not quite happy with all of this algebra based physics) then chemistry and finally biology.

Your approach ignores the cognitive development of the child's brain. Much of the high school biology curriculum is descriptive, so teaching the scientific method and biology first teaches foundational observation and analysis skills that most students in early high school can grasp. Meanwhile, they are completing the foundational algebra skills required for a more quantitative approach to chemistry - including the ideal gas laws etc. Again, the students are simultaneously building math skills. The problem comes with physics. Very few students take calculus in high school and those who do are rarely prepared before their senior year. This means you have two choices - either teach an introductory, algebra - based physics course to a wider audience or teach a calculus based physics course to a few high school seniors who are simultaneously taking calculus. I did the latter, but worked my tail off that year (it was good for me...) and it was a very small class.

73 posted on 01/21/2009 3:17:17 AM PST by RochesterFan
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To: Coyoteman
Science and religion are not antithetical. The problem arises when practitioners of each force them into domains that they were not intended to address. As a committed Christian and one trained in and working as a scientist, I see no disconnect. Many others before me have come to the same conclusion.

By it's very nature, science is limited by the need to observe and to do so repeatedly. The dangers of extrapolation are well known. The problem with the scientific study of origins is that it can never produce more than a theory. One can never observe the process in the laboratory and one's understanding is always based upon extrapolations. In scientific terminology, it is "an ill posed problem." The scientist cannot, nor could they ever, observe all the data and repeat the experiment under controlled conditions.

Religion, by nature posits the existence of a god and is concerned with the relationship between that god and man. Christianity in particular (since that is where your attack appeared to be aimed) presupposes the existence of a God who transcends space and time and who has revealed Himself to mankind throughout history. Orthodox Christians believe that revelation was ultimately through the person of Jesus Christ and that our sovereign God was capable of preserving a sufficiently complete record of His revelation through the ages - in the form of what we today call the Bible. Orthodox Christians generally recognize that God prepared the writers of the Bible to faithfully and accurately record His intended communication. That communication was by nature designed to communicate with the original audience and because of the universal truth communicated is relevant and applicable to people of every time, including today. Again, most orthodox Christians agree that we need to let the author (God) speak for himself and guide our understanding of the record. This brings me to the creation accounts - Genesis 1, John 1, and Col 1:15-16. Looking at these together shows that the point is to present the pre-incarnate Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all that exists today. The Bible also presents the created universe as evidence of God's power.

The problem comes in when scientists and Christians alike want to look at the Bible and read it like a submission to the Journal of Applied Physics or Nature or some other premier scientific journal. The text of the Bible makes it clear that God did not intend to author such a genre. God's intent was to present Himself to mankind as an orderly creator and sovereign over His creation, not to write a textbook of physics or molecular biology. In the end, those who accept Christ as Sovereign Lord and Creator and those who reject Him in favor of a totally naturalistic explanation do so by faith - either faith in One who gives us sufficient evidence if we care to look or faith solely in one's own reasoning. Either way, the decision is based on far more than "science."

74 posted on 01/21/2009 4:15:18 AM PST by RochesterFan
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To: RochesterFan

I think everyone should be able to do calculus in high school...I took algebra in 8th, geometry in 9th, trig in 10th and calculus in 11th and I don’t think we had the most amazing high school in the world. We also had a lot less free time available than students in most schools.

I am sure this sequence could be pushed even further back if kids were actually encouraged to learn math and not ridicule those who do, unlike what you see on the “Big Bang Theory” TV show. There is certainly a lot of room for ‘optimization’ in the math curriculum. For example, the Singapore 8th grade curriculum even covers trig:
http://www.sgbox.com/singaporemathss2.html


75 posted on 01/21/2009 4:24:07 AM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: momincombatboots

I do. All of them.


76 posted on 01/21/2009 4:43:53 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Coyoteman
This country does not need thousands of enclaves, each teaching their own dogma and opposing all others. But that is exactly what you are advocating.

instead of...

This country has ONE enclave, teaching IT'S own dogma and opposing all others. THIS is exactly what we have now.

77 posted on 01/21/2009 4:45:32 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: The_Reader_David
(Hence the computer nerd shirt inscription: “There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don’t.”)

Instead of...

(The Gummint skuul kid's T-shirt inscription: “There are 3 kinds of people, those who can add, and those who can't)

78 posted on 01/21/2009 4:47:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stormer
“how about: let’s pay students if they actually learn math and science”

We don't DARE!!

Folks trained in this manner can look at data and come to conclusions: something that the 'leaders' do NOT want happening!

79 posted on 01/21/2009 4:48:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ari-freedom
yup all those religious homeschoolers are ruining this country. The nerve of them to think they can actually try to teach their kids!

Yeah, us ignerint nikkle draggers are producing physics majors with SAT scores of 1530, and computer science majors with ACT scores of 30, and one more on the burner who's not done with her testing but is already outperforming her brother and sister academically. And that from creationist parents who are a meteorologist and engineer.

Not to mention the number of homeschoolers I know with similar education backgrounds and the ones with PhD's who teach at the local SUNY colleges.

80 posted on 01/21/2009 4:50:20 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RobbyS

You nailed it.


81 posted on 01/21/2009 4:51:06 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ari-freedom

Physics before chemistry is way more successful.

The public schools have it backwards, as usual.


82 posted on 01/21/2009 4:52:19 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RochesterFan
our entire approach is screwed up. We need to teach calculus first, then physics (I’m also not quite happy with all of this algebra based physics) then chemistry and finally biology.

I'm teaching physics and algebra to my grandkids: 5, 9 and 11 - but they don't know it.

It gets mixed in with all the fun stuff that Papaw does in the barn and around the farm!

83 posted on 01/21/2009 4:52:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: John Will
Might be why science and engineering grad programs are desperate for American students.

Evolution has had the monopoly for decades in the public school system. Can't blame the failure of science education on teaching creation.

84 posted on 01/21/2009 4:53:58 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: patton; metmom
Trinary...

Nope. 23 + 23 = 113

85 posted on 01/21/2009 4:56:48 AM PST by whd23
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To: Coyoteman; swmobuffalo
And the anti-science religious fundamentalism that is being pushed in some areas has no role in science education.

Where? What kind?

Wake up. Evolution has had the monopoly in public education through litigation and the abuse of the judiciary for decades. How can you keep repeating the lie that teaching creation in public schools is going to destroy the science education the kids are receiving?

It's not like science in public schools is anything worth mentioning as it is and creation has nothing to do with it.

86 posted on 01/21/2009 4:58:27 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Then we can turn this ship around!


87 posted on 01/21/2009 5:01:24 AM PST by momincombatboots (The last experience of the sinner is the horrible enslavement of the freedom he desired. -C.S. Lewis)
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To: neverdem

I know people with hard science degrees but they are required to pursue a teaching certificate in order to teach in a publik skuul.

This is never going to happen till the teachers union is gone. The teacher’s union is all about protecting BAD teachers. If they were good teachers would they still need a union?


88 posted on 01/21/2009 5:02:21 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: GeronL

How about NO, indeed. Here in CA, math teachers (even with PhDs in MATH) are required to take 10 courses (!) in ‘how to teach math.’ They are taught by the union teachers, of course, through the State’s NCLB ‘program.’

The one I started to take (rolling eyes) was taught by a gal with a BA in DRAMA!! ... who wanted us to ingest/ spew fuzzy math — ‘there are many ways to get the right answer.’ The PhD in math guy was absolutely convulsing; I got those brain-headaches when your brain knows something is beyond the pale. My scientist-husband said, “Those things she is teaching you are not correct. Get out!”

It is a wonder any child in California learns math, and the teachers are part of the problem. The textbooks are THE WORST! etc. etc. This should NOT be rewarded.


89 posted on 01/21/2009 5:30:51 AM PST by bboop (obama, little o, not a Real God)
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To: metmom

I’ve had far more advanced mathematics than the average high school math teacher, but she’s qualified to teach my kids and I’m not because she has a degree with the word “Education” in it.

Now, I am a bit concerned about physics since all I’ve done with that is what comes free with Saxon math but before our kids get to that stage, I’ll go learn it myself. Looking forward to it - I have always regretted not fitting physics into my college work.


90 posted on 01/21/2009 5:32:37 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB

Get Saxon Physics. We used that for my daughter and it’s about AP level work. It’s usual Saxon quality.


91 posted on 01/21/2009 5:58:33 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Will88
I wonder what % of the typical school day is spent on PCness and multi-culti indoctrination.

A lot, and that's why there's a problem, imo, not because of money.

When my kids were in public school, and spent a lot of time volunteering in the classroom, and I'd say that the vast majority of the day is spent doing other stuff: PE, eating, recess, getting organized, going to and from places. That's just the nature of a classroom full of kids.

Also they don't spend enough time doing the basics like math drills and the repetitive stuff other nations do. They tend to go at the pace of the slowest kid in the class. My second grader was still doing doubles addition at the end of second grade. This for a kid who already understood probability at the beginning of first grade ( because he watched Bill Nye the Science Guy every day ).

One day, near the end of second grade, I walked in and he was going over doubles addition with his seatmate . He looked at me with his eyes full of desperation and he said, "Mom, this is all the math we ever do ! " I can't stand it !".

That was the day we decided to homeschool. He graduates in May, and will start college classes this Spring.

92 posted on 01/21/2009 7:36:51 AM PST by Red Boots
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To: Coyoteman
Its sounds nice to have everyone marching to a different drummer, but its a hell of a poor way to organize a parade...

"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him march to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."

That used to sum up the American Experience;as summarized by the quintessential American Philosopher, Henry David Thoreau. In his day, schools all over the nation were organized, run and funded by local communities. They had no standardized curriculum, other than the Blue-Backed Speller, and the Bible, and a far greater percentage of children were home schooled, or even not schooled at all. Incidentally, they all learned nothing but creationism.

A national military, to which all could be inducted, was unheard of. According to your premise, we should have had disruption and chaos, ; yet these were the schools that produced American greats like Jefferson, Lincoln, and the other founders. Andrew Carnegie, who basically industrialized America, was a Scottish immigrant with very little formal education. That was the system, full of the chaos of many different groups, that produced American greatness and prosperity. That parade, though it would be unorganized in your book, was the parade that carried America to greatness, and millions to prosperity.

Paradoxically, it's greatness, and it's harmony; sprang up out of disharmony and seeming chaos. Forcing ever more students into the educational collective will not produce either greatness, nor an organized parade; but the very Balkcanization you seek to avoid.

The Soviet Union is the perfect example of what happens when standardization is forced from the top down. You get seeming harmony, while force is applied, often brutally, and the eventual destruction of the entire system.

93 posted on 01/21/2009 8:13:44 AM PST by Red Boots
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To: neverdem
Aw fer cryin' out loud!

Stop beating the "money will fix education" dead horse already!

It just. Doesn't. Work.

94 posted on 01/21/2009 8:15:51 AM PST by TChris (So many useful idiots...)
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To: bboop
... who wanted us to ingest/ spew fuzzy math — ‘there are many ways to get the right answer

I had the same experience in the "Math Education" college classes. When we went on a practicum to teach math to small groups of Middle Schoolers, we were supposed to be doing an exercise in which the kids spent an hour "rediscovering" a principle of geometry. Our professor actually announced to the kids that we were not allowed to tell them if they were right or wrong, and that we would get in trouble if we did.

In this type of curriculum, the kids spend weeks "discovering" the Pythagorean Theorem with string, etc. ,but never actually do the repetitive problems necessary to master it. Then of course they don't have time to learn everything they should, because they have to rediscover everything. It's absolutely ridiculous.

95 posted on 01/21/2009 8:25:29 AM PST by Elvina (BHO is double plus ungood.)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom; Red Boots
Its sounds nice to have everyone marching to a different drummer, but its a hell of a poor way to organize a parade...

So what we have is an educational parade dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. No opportunity to excel. No opportunity to think out of the box. Just force fed material that they are expected to vomit back on tests without the need to understand how to apply the material. Sure is a great way to stifle initiative.

This country does not need thousands of enclaves, each teaching their own dogma and opposing all others. But that is exactly what you are advocating.

In respect to the first part, that's exactly what homeschoolers are currently doing and their success in general far outshines anything the public school system does in general. If you feel that that is what's happening, please provide the data to back up your assertion that this would ruin education.

And you know where it all started going downhill?

No, it all started going downhill with the implementation of the graded schools and the elimination of the one room school house and local parental control of the schools in the early 1900's, which interestingly enough, coincided with the Scopes Trial and the beginning of eliminating God from education.

Please, by all means, demonstrate that individualized instruction programs tailored to meet the needs of the students is an inferior way to educate a child. Don't forget to use examples from history like Lincoln, Bowditch, Edison, Curie, to name a few.

96 posted on 01/21/2009 10:59:37 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom; Red Boots
This country does not need thousands of enclaves, each teaching their own dogma and opposing all others. But that is exactly what you are advocating.

And you know where it all started going downhill? When the draft was canceled. Prior to that young folks from all over the country were taken out of their home environments and given a basic education in US history and values, and shown a bit of the world for contrast.

Advocating so much big government control is hardly becoming for someone who calls themselves conservative.

Matter of fact, it's not a conservative position.

Forced government control of education and mandatory draft because it's good for you, whether you know it or not, and whether you like it or not?

Interesting.....

97 posted on 01/21/2009 11:02:45 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Elvina

YES, that exactly! Ok, let’s say they are NOT Euclid, nor Pythagorus. But perhaps they just want to use the things those great men discovered as TOOLS!

I have bright 8th graders who have to learn multiplication tables because they have been allowed to use calculators since 5th grade! They cannot even multiply to the 12s!!

And DISCOVERING theorems. Why?? Oh it just makes me spew and sputter.

You should have seen this poor PhD Math person, who teaches High School math, struggling with these idiotic theories the Drama Person (aka Math Teacher of Teachers) was trying to make us learn. “This is not how math works,” he would sputter in frustration. “You are saying that X is not X?” “Well, yes, because there are many ways to calculate that.”

I would come home, share with my husband and son, both with great math minds - “What are they teaching you? You should RUN SCREAMING from that class.” hahah.

So I did.

Hang in there. What those kids need more than anything is to learn how to think logically and clearly, so they can be good conservatives when they grow up. hahaha.


98 posted on 01/21/2009 11:14:43 AM PST by bboop (obama, little o, not a Real God)
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To: Coyoteman

I have a better idea, you stop spreading baseless lies and people will stop calling you out.


99 posted on 01/21/2009 11:32:41 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Red Boots
Also they don't spend enough time doing the basics like math drills and the repetitive stuff other nations do. They tend to go at the pace of the slowest kid in the class.

Quite a few detrimental changes to our schools have been made since the sixties, curriculum and other aspects, and the results show it. But the only solutions the leftist controlled public education system will likely be just more money to do more of the same. And I'm sure home schooling and private schools will continue to grow.

100 posted on 01/21/2009 12:44:29 PM PST by Will88
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