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Stemming the Tide - Letís pay science and math teachers more.
City Journal ^ | 16 January 2009 | Marcus A. Winters

Posted on 01/20/2009 7:55:40 PM PST by neverdem

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To: metmom

“It’s not like science in public schools is anything worth mentioning as it is”

In yours maybe.


101 posted on 01/21/2009 4:29:20 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Coyoteman

” I would like to see science teachers teach even more science and less nonsense.

And the anti-science religious fundamentalism that is being pushed in some areas has no role in science education.”

I just said science teachers do just that teach science.

And as for the religious fundamentalism, that’s just a tad bit of a strawman. There’s no real danger of religion replacing science. In many cases, religion backs up the science.

What the idiot Muslims do is there problem.


102 posted on 01/21/2009 4:32:20 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: swmobuffalo
I just said science teachers do just that teach science.

I agree with you on this. The bump science got in the late 1950s and early 1960s was somewhat lost by the dope smoke of the late 1960s. And then the fundamentalists got a jumpstart and haven't helped the situation a bit.

And as for the religious fundamentalism, that’s just a tad bit of a strawman. There’s no real danger of religion replacing science. In many cases, religion backs up the science.

No strawman--fundamentalist religion is looking to replace science, or when they can't, to censor science. Look at the Texas squabbles; look at Dover and a host of other issues that were taken to the courts to prevent fundamentalism from being forced on students.

And you don't have to go any further than these threads to see that exact process in action. If a certain group of posters here had their way, the age of the earth would be fixed at about 6,000 years and the theory of evolution would be banned from the schools. As a fallback position they generously admit that they would like both science and fundamentalist religion taught.

No, they hate science, or at least those results that contradict their religious beliefs. They are working and hoping to censor science in the short term and to "replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions" in the long term -- at which point it will no longer be real science.

103 posted on 01/21/2009 4:58:06 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman; swmobuffalo
Look at the Texas squabbles; look at Dover and a host of other issues that were taken to the courts to prevent fundamentalism from being forced on students.

Look at history. What you claim is *religious fundamentalism* was just what most people believed several decades ago and further back. There was no theocracy. Reintroducing creation back into the schools like it was taught for centuries is no more going to harm science than it did then.

Creation was removed from public schools decades ago. Show us how science education benefited from it. Show us how it improved our ranking in science education in the world to have only evolution taught in public schools.

That should be easy to do because all you have to do is go back in our own history.

104 posted on 01/21/2009 5:18:53 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Creation was removed from public schools decades ago. Show us how science education benefited from it. Show us how it improved our ranking in science education in the world to have only evolution taught in public schools.

You're getting to be a one-trick pony. You really should realize that its not an either-or situation. There are a lot of other factors in the equation.

To claim, as you do, that the drop in educational excellence over the past 50 or more years is a direct result of the removal of fundamentalist religion from science classes is a delusion of the highest order.

To claim that ignores the vast changes of the 1960s. It also dishonestly cojoins those changes with having "only evolution taught in public schools." Sorry, that's a fundamentalist's delusion.

The surge in science education of the late 1950s and early 1960s (largely brought about by the space program) was severely impacted by the liberal surge of the late 1960s.

Neither of these had any relationship to whether fundamentalist religion was taught in the schools or not.

And no amount of fundamentalism--not even an absolute theocracy--will bring back your incorrectly remembered "golden years." Sorry, Humpty has taken the big fall and he's not coming back. (Remember "The Enlightenment?")

You write, "Reintroducing creation back into the schools like it was taught for centuries is no more going to harm science than it did then."

You are advocating teaching religion as science; your religion in place of science. Creationism is religion--everyone agrees to that. What you want is that your religion be taught as fact, as verifiable evidence, and as science--but I suspect you don't want your claims to be subjected to the scientific method, to testing of the "weaknesses," if you will. To "critical thinking." You are glad to have "weaknesses" and "critical thinking" applied to the theory of evolution, but that's really the last thing you want for your own beliefs.

And you claim not to be anti-science... Sorry, you (and a couple of others here) are the poster children for anti-science fundamentalists.

105 posted on 01/21/2009 5:55:06 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman

Tell you what, when you can provide sources that are mainstream or at least neutral in viewpoint get back to me.

I’m well aware of your “bias” towards anything that smacks of religion, especially when it comes to the subject of evolution.

And yes your argument is a strawman. You throw it out there everytime this subject comes up, just like you’re really afraid of the truth.


106 posted on 01/21/2009 7:49:13 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: metmom

“Forced government control of education and mandatory draft because it’s good for you, whether you know it or not, and whether you like it or not?”

I never thought of coyoteman as ‘conservative’ but his post was quite revealing. The evolutionists really do want total control over education.


107 posted on 01/21/2009 10:12:17 PM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: ari-freedom

You should see where most of them stand on mandatory vaccines and their opinion of people who oppose the mandatory part.


108 posted on 01/22/2009 5:43:56 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ari-freedom
“Forced government control of education and mandatory draft because it’s good for you, whether you know it or not, and whether you like it or not?”

Idiots! Can't even tell the difference between analyzing a situation and advocating it? My comment on the draft analyzed the effects of its elimination. That's a far cry from advocating for its return.

No wonder you guys dislike science and anything requiring analytical reasoning; you're so poor at it.

I never thought of coyoteman as ‘conservative’ but his post was quite revealing. The evolutionists really do want total control over education.

Not conservative because I'm not a theocon zealot? I can live with that. But I supported Reagan during his first campaign and was president of a Young Republican chapter -- both back in the 1960s.

And my goal as far as eduction is concerned is to keep you and your ilk from peddling your fundamentalist anti-science beliefs in place of science, or instead of science as I'm sure many of you would prefer.

109 posted on 01/22/2009 7:38:00 AM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman; metmom

“And my goal as far as eduction is concerned is to keep you and your ilk from peddling your fundamentalist anti-science beliefs in place of science, or instead of science as I’m sure many of you would prefer.”

No, your goal should be to simply post whatever you feel like on freerepublic because you will certainly not be able to control the education of OUR kids.

As for the draft, I sure didn’t see any ‘analysis.’ I guess the standard for analysis has been so butchered by evolutionists that you can come up with any connection you want and still call it ‘analysis.’


110 posted on 01/22/2009 8:38:18 AM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom

If you don’t like what your kids are learning in publicly funded schools paid for by those parents who consistently vote to have creation and ID taught along with evolution, start your own God-free, evolution only private atheist school or homeschool. You’re free to do that any time you wish.

Advertise for it and watch the stampede as people flock to your school.

Educate them on your own dime and stop trying to force your views on us because you think that you can justify dictating your views to others, whether they like it or not.


111 posted on 01/22/2009 8:53:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

“those parents who consistently vote to have creation and ID taught along with evolution”

or at least simply be allowed to question evolutionary claims in school.


112 posted on 01/22/2009 9:01:49 AM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: ari-freedom
or at least simply be allowed to question evolutionary claims in school.

You want to question evolutionary claims try the peer reviewed journals. That's where science is conducted.

In schools students are expected to learn something about science before they start saying its all wrong.

(That's the difference between real science and creation "science.")

113 posted on 01/22/2009 9:06:49 AM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman

The difference is that creation science makes predictions that can be confirmed while evolutionists simply make up lots of fudge factors to get the data to appear to fit to their contrived conjectures after the fact.


114 posted on 01/22/2009 9:23:51 AM PST by ari-freedom (Hail to the Dork!)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom
In schools students are expected to learn something about science before they start saying its all wrong.

Kind of hard to do when truth is a wopd best avoided in science.

If you don't know what's true, you can't tell other people that they are wrong.

115 posted on 01/22/2009 9:32:07 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

wopd=word


116 posted on 01/22/2009 9:32:55 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ari-freedom; tpanther
or at least simply be allowed to question evolutionary claims in school.

How dare they!

There is simply no reason for the evo/atheists to demand that creation be removed from the public schools.

Poll after poll indicates that the majority of parents want it addressed along with evolution. For those who don't want their kids to hear it, they have several options besides using litigation to force their worldview on others.

Those options are: homeschool, start their own private God free evo only schools, or opt out of that part of the class on the day that creation is addressed.

There is simply no justification for using the heavy hand of the government to oppress something that they don't think should be taught.

I wonder if their faith in their theory is so weak that they're afraid that if their kids hear about creation in school that they might believe it.

117 posted on 01/22/2009 9:38:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
In schools students are expected to learn something about science before they start saying its all wrong.

Kind of hard to do when truth is a wopd best avoided in science.

If you don't know what's true, you can't tell other people that they are wrong.

You are showing that you are either incapable of learning, or committed to deliberate distortion and misrepresentation. I suspect the latter. That's what creation "science" is all about anyway.

For the lurkers not following the discussion, I frequently post a definition from a CalTech physics website:

Truth: This is a word best avoided entirely in physics [and science] except when placed in quotes, or with careful qualification. Its colloquial use has so many shades of meaning from ‘it seems to be correct’ to the absolute truths claimed by religion, that it’s use causes nothing but misunderstanding. Someone once said "Science seeks proximate (approximate) truths." Others speak of provisional or tentative truths. Certainly science claims no final or absolute truths. Source

This is deliberately and consistently misrepresented--until it amounts to a lie--to claim that science is untrue and that scientists don't know what is true (as in the above post) so that they can't say something is wrong.

Science is not about "truth," "Truth," "TRUTH," or "TRVTH" -- science is about increasingly accurate descriptions and explanations for natural phenomena. And science is exceedingly good at this.

To turn this around, as posters here frequently do, to imply that science is untrue etc. is both sophistry and outright lying. It also shows the abject dishonesty of their arguments that they can't argue the merits of a position but automatically seek to misrepresent and to distort. It makes one suspicious of pretty much everything they post.

Lets try again:

In schools students are expected to learn something about science before they start saying its all wrong.

118 posted on 01/22/2009 9:50:29 AM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman; ari-freedom; tpanther

The question remains...

If you don’t like the idea of public schools teaching your children creation and ID as polls consistently show parents want, why don’t you homeschool them, or send them to a private school? Or even the more reasonable option of simply having them opt out of the class that day?

Why the push to ban what you don’t like from all public schools for all kids and parents?

Is you faith in the ToE so weak that you’re even afraid that your kids might hear something you don’t believe in? Is you faith in the ToE so weak that you can’t even allow any competing viewpoint to be presented?


119 posted on 01/22/2009 12:54:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Coyoteman; metmom

You’re getting to be a one-trick pony. You really should realize that its not an either-or situation. There are a lot of other factors in the equation.


Project much? How many times have we seen YOU blame the failings of science on creationists...now that’ you’re confronted with truth, it’s suddenly bcause of all these “variables”????

Riiiiiiiiight!!!!!

Your problems remain:

1. science thrived just fine pre-godless liberal NEA, as did education in general, without all the theocracy, inquistion, and burnings at the stake strawmen you regurgitate ad infinatum...

2. Home-schooled and private schooled kids perform better academically, than their counterparts who are taught by people with endless insecure God-hang-ups.

3. You can’t blame creationists because your cult saw to it to stomp God out of education!

There’s just no wiggling loose from the facts CM.


120 posted on 01/22/2009 2:16:09 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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