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Jurist (R. Bork) predicts ‘terrible conflict’ will endanger U.S. Catholics’ religious freedom
CNA ^

Posted on 01/21/2009 4:46:45 AM PST by fabrizio

Washington DC, Jan 21, 2009 / 03:19 am (CNA).- Former Supreme Court nominee Judge Robert Bork has predicted that upcoming legal battles will have significant ramifications for religious freedom. He names as issues of major concern the continued freedom of Catholic hospitals to refuse to perform abortions and the likely “terrible conflict” resulting from the advancement of homosexual rights.

Speaking in an interview published Tuesday by Cybercast News Service, Judge Bork discussed the contentious nature of modern politics.

“Everything is up for debate these days. I can’t think of anything that isn’t,” he said.

“You are going to get Catholic hospitals that are going to be required as a matter of law to perform abortions,” he claimed.

“We are going to see in the near future a terrible conflict between claimed rights of homosexuals and religious freedom… You are going to get Catholic or other groups’ relief services that are going to be required to allow adoption of a child by homosexual couples. We are going to have a real conflict that goes right to the heart of the society.”

Asked whether there was a freedom of conscience clause anywhere in the Constitution that might prohibit the U.S. government from compelling a religious hospital to perform abortions, he replied:

“Well, the free exercise of religion clause might fulfill that role.”

He agreed with the CNS interviewer, Editor in Chief Terry Jeffrey, that such coercion forces someone to act against their religion and could be construed as a violation of the right to free exercise of religion.

However, Judge Bork was unsure about whether the U.S. Supreme Court would uphold such a right. He predicted the decision would rest with Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, who in some cases sides with liberals and at other times with “originalists,” those who profess to hold a more tradition-minded interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

“It depends upon Anthony Kennedy,” Judge Bork told CNS. “Now, it’s a funny situation in which the moral life of a nation is in effect decided by one judge, because you have four solid liberal votes, four solid originalist votes, and one vote you can’t predict too accurately in advance.”

Though Justice Kennedy is a Catholic, he sided with the majority who upheld the pro-abortion rights Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade in the 1992 case Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Judge Bork said that a decision involving the freedom of Catholic hospitals to refuse to perform abortions would split by a 5-4 vote.

“But I don’t know which way,” he added.

The Cybercast News interview with the jurist also touched upon the place of religion in public life.

“I don’t think the disputants talk much about God anymore,” Judge Bork commented. “That’s one of the things that I think is regrettable--and I know liberals have said the same thing, it is not a conservative position particularly--but it is regrettable that religion has dropped out of our public discourse. I think it impoverishes it and makes it more violent.”

He explained that he believed this violence was not armed conflict, but rather “violent language and propaganda.”

Judge Bork said he also thought that America is “now going down a path towards kind of a happy-go-lucky nihilism.”

“A lot of people are nihilists,” he continued. “They don’t think about religion. They don’t think about ultimate questions. They go along. They worry about consumer goods, comfort, and so forth.

“As a matter of fact, the abortion question is largely a question about convenience. If you look at the polls about why people have abortions, 90 percent of it has nothing to do with medical conditions. It’s convenience. And that’s I think an example of the secularization of an issue that ought to have a religious dimension.”

When asked whether a nihilistic society can remain “happy-go-lucky” for long, Judge Bork replied:

“I don’t know. I guess we are going to find out.”


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; antichristian; atheismandstate; bork; catholic; churchandstate; culturewar; firstamendment; homosexualagenda; indoctrination; pc; politicalcorrectness; politicallycorrect; reeducationcenters; religion; religiousintolerance; sodomites
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1 posted on 01/21/2009 4:46:45 AM PST by fabrizio
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To: fabrizio

ping


2 posted on 01/21/2009 4:50:35 AM PST by glide625
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To: fabrizio

“A lot of people are nihilists,” he continued. “They don’t think about religion. They don’t think about ultimate questions. They go along. They worry about consumer goods, comfort, and so forth.
* * * * * * * * * * * *

That’s it in a nutshell.


3 posted on 01/21/2009 4:52:58 AM PST by Canedawg (Lincoln freed the slaves, BO will free the terrorists.)
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To: fabrizio
It is an outrage the Justice Bork is not the deciding vote on the USSC.

We have the murderer Ted Kennedy to thank for that, you know, the same guy who will be using his brain tumor to enslave us to the federal government through their control of medical attention.

We've been at war with leftists for a long time, and Mr. Bork explained that very well in “Slouching towards Gomorrah.”

We need to take the gloves off, raise our voices, take it to the streets, and get in their faces.

4 posted on 01/21/2009 4:53:19 AM PST by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (The people who cheered when OJ was acquitted are the same ones cheering now.)
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To: fabrizio

Some of these issues have been brought up here before. The Church needs to be willing to walk away from these services - it will cost the Government more than they will be willing to cough up and so exceptions will be made. I understand the need and desire for the church to be involved in good works and I am sure that other countries who appreciate the Church’s efforts will be quite happy for the help. However if the Church is unwilling to let go then it will find itself in an unholy alliance.

Seems a no brainer to me!

Mel


5 posted on 01/21/2009 4:55:23 AM PST by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: fabrizio

I saw this coming when 0bama met with the homosexual ECUSA bishop Robinson no less than 3 times and then picked him to deliver a prayer at his inaurgasmation.


6 posted on 01/21/2009 4:57:50 AM PST by N. Theknow (Kennedys: Can't fly, can't ski, can't drive, can't skipper a boat. But they know what's best.)
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To: fabrizio

With all the retread secular humanist/socialist politic hacks from the Clinto Administration back in Washington under the One let the Catholic bashing begin.
Anyone that speaks out against the homo fascists wil be targeted and destroyed.
America has finally placed the second foot on the slippery slope and is likely to take the fall.


7 posted on 01/21/2009 5:05:03 AM PST by SECURE AMERICA (Coming to You From the Front Lines of Occupied America)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
We need to take the gloves off, raise our voices, take it to the streets, and get in their faces.

It'll never happen, the majority of American people don't care anymore. This nation is reached the tipping point of becoming lethargic and has gone over. We're on the downward slope to destruction now.

8 posted on 01/21/2009 5:07:56 AM PST by pctech
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To: SECURE AMERICA
Anyone that speaks out against the homo fascists wil be targeted and destroyed.

This has already started with the CA marriage proposition. BTW, this is far more than just a Catholic problem.

9 posted on 01/21/2009 5:09:26 AM PST by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: fabrizio

We have examples in the not-too-distant past about what happens in a society that adopts nihilism, where people don’t ask questions and everyone just goes along.


10 posted on 01/21/2009 5:13:13 AM PST by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: Honeybunch

Ping.


11 posted on 01/21/2009 5:16:40 AM PST by OKSooner
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To: umgud

“BTW, this is far more than just a Catholic problem. “

VERY true!!!


12 posted on 01/21/2009 5:23:10 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified DeCartes))
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To: melsec

One of the problems is that a lot of theoretically “Catholic” hospitals are under lay boards now that actually are not responsible to the bishop. I suspect that a lot of the “Catholic” hospitals would be just fine with anything the Government told them to do, and would become a simple non-profit corporation in order to keep on getting Federal money. I think the question is whether the bishops will then be willing to discipline any Catholics involved in this (although many of the hospitals have non-Catholics on their boards or as their executives) and excommunicate them, suing them to prevent them from keeping a name that implies that they are supported by or part of the Catholic Church.

I expect to see a lot of division on this, although frankly, I was very impressed by the fact that Obama was not able to find a treasonous bishop or priest willing to preside over the fun at his inauguration. It speaks well of Catholics that at least there was no official Catholic blessing of this abomination.

But there is definitely going to be confrontation between the Church and the government. I think Obama will try to stir up that latent anti-Catholicism that exists in this country, and things could get ugly.

Pray that the bishops remain strong!


13 posted on 01/21/2009 5:26:07 AM PST by livius
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To: fabrizio

One would think that with all the available places to get an abortion and all of the hospitals that are not Catholic it would make sense not to force a Catholic Hospital to engage in that activity.

A suit to force a catholic hospital to perform abortion is not a suit for the purpose of having another place to get abortions ,but is a suit to in effect destroy Catholicism.


14 posted on 01/21/2009 5:29:49 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Wilhelm Tell

It has been noted elsewhere that Catholic Hospitals provide the lions share of health care in many parts of this country, and good quality, too, especially in middle and rural America. It is a vast employer of skilled people and large segments of small communities depend upon these institutions.

Multitudes will be without health care if Catholic hospitals must close. My husband will also lose his job....

This whole thing is unConstitutional and obscene.


15 posted on 01/21/2009 5:30:30 AM PST by bperiwinkle7 ( In the beginning was the WORD................)
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To: bmwcyle

ping


16 posted on 01/21/2009 5:33:58 AM PST by theKid51
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To: fabrizio
You are going to get Catholic or other groups’ relief services that are going to be required to allow adoption of a child by homosexual couples.

We are "going to get?" I'm not sure where Mr. Bork has been for the past few years, but he needs to catch up.

17 posted on 01/21/2009 5:34:52 AM PST by fwdude ("...a 'centrist' ... has few principles - and those are negotiable." - Don Feder)
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To: pctech

Turn on TV station EWTN tomorrow afternoon and you will see tens of thousands of people of all ages and all faiths standing up for LIFE.These people are not sheep.They intend to take a very strong stand for LIFE.


18 posted on 01/21/2009 5:37:39 AM PST by ardara
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To: fwdude

I fear that one day soon, just being a Christian will be labeled as a hate crime........


19 posted on 01/21/2009 5:39:33 AM PST by Le Chien Rouge
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To: glide625

The Catholic voters elected Obama.


20 posted on 01/21/2009 5:41:24 AM PST by blessu (blessu)
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To: Le Chien Rouge

> I fear that one day soon, just being a Christian will be
> labeled as a hate crime........

Revelation 6:9

Revelation 13:1-ff


21 posted on 01/21/2009 5:47:17 AM PST by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: fabrizio

> When asked whether a nihilistic society can remain “happy-
> go-lucky” for long, Judge Bork replied:

A nihilist society will be annihilated.

It just stands to reason.


22 posted on 01/21/2009 5:48:39 AM PST by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Canedawg

In a nutshell kudos


23 posted on 01/21/2009 5:53:53 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: umgud
This has already started with the CA marriage proposition. BTW, this is far more than just a Catholic problem.

I agree. On this one I believe you have a holy allience between we Baptist and the Catholics.

24 posted on 01/21/2009 6:01:07 AM PST by Retired COB (Still mad about Campaign Finance Reform)
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To: blessu

The DEMOCRAT Catholic voters elected Obama.


25 posted on 01/21/2009 6:03:08 AM PST by anoldafvet
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

**It is an outrage the Justice Bork is not the deciding vote on the USSC.**

Ditto, and a severe price we will pay for at least another generation.

Last time the damn government tried pushing a Catholic Service, The Catholics CLOSED IT.. YO, BARRY ... you want HUNDREDS of HOSPITALS TO CLOSE.

To many, BARRY, OUR FAITH is more Important to US than ...YOUR GOVERNMENT, and many will die to PROVE IT


26 posted on 01/21/2009 6:03:34 AM PST by gwilhelm56 (Orwell's "1984" .. to Conservatives - a WARNING, to Liberals - a TEXTBOOK)
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To: Venturer

I agree and IMO this is the impetus behind the gay marriage issue.


27 posted on 01/21/2009 6:05:48 AM PST by georgia peach (georgia peach)
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To: Retired COB

And the Mormons.


28 posted on 01/21/2009 6:07:03 AM PST by georgia peach (georgia peach)
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To: Venturer
A suit to force a catholic hospital to perform abortion is not a suit for the purpose of having another place to get abortions ,but is a suit to in effect destroy Catholicism.

Quite so.

There's a principle at stake. After 30-some years of Roe v Wade, the abortionists are distressed by the fact that there are still holdouts who refuse to go along. Pockets of resistance are still to be found and must be eliminated.

29 posted on 01/21/2009 6:14:26 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future"- Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: fabrizio

Absolutely right on.

And not just the Catholics, the evangelicals and the Mormons and the Orthodox Jews.

With Christianity under attack as it has not been for over 200 years you can count on the “leadership” of the so-called mainline denominations only to be concerned with advancing the homosexual agenda.


30 posted on 01/21/2009 6:17:07 AM PST by AmericanVictory
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To: livius
I think the Bishops will stay strong.

Does the Church own the buildings? and if so under what sort of arrangment does the board operate?

Sadly many Catholics disparage the Church's teachings on abortion as well as homosexuality otherwise this would not be an issue and Obama would not be President.

Mel

31 posted on 01/21/2009 6:20:47 AM PST by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: fabrizio

While I am not a Catholic, I am a part of the Body of Christ universal. And, our Heavenly Father told us there’d be days like this....


32 posted on 01/21/2009 6:23:36 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: fabrizio

Imagine this after-inaugural litter as coming abortions...

33 posted on 01/21/2009 6:32:55 AM PST by polymuser (Bye, bye Miss American Pie.)
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To: blessu
The Catholic voters elected Obama.

Secular Catholics voted for Obama. The church-going types (i.e., the real Catholics) did not.
34 posted on 01/21/2009 6:38:28 AM PST by Antoninus (America didn't turn away from conservatism, they turned away from many who faked it. - Mark Sanford)
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To: blessu
and a lot of Catholics voted against him.

Also a lot of other “Christians”
from other denominations (Not a thread to go into the true Church so RCCers bear with me) voted for Obama and against him as well.

Message, there are a lot of seriously screwed up supposed followers of Christ voting for poverty solutions that always fail due to the poor succumbing to perpetual dependency of the State than standing up to the most basic right of all, life and due process to life.

35 posted on 01/21/2009 6:41:45 AM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: fabrizio
Now, it’s a funny situation in which the moral life of a nation is in effect decided by one judge

Yes, one might even call it TYRANNY.

36 posted on 01/21/2009 6:42:06 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: fabrizio

It isn’t just the Catholic hospitals that are going to have a problem, it is also Catholic doctors. The Liberals want to force Catholic doctors to perform abortions or relinquish their licenses. These are sad times and Catholic Democrats are so blind and so brain washed that they don’t know nor care about what they have done by voting in another Democrat as President. They only remember “Kennedy.”


37 posted on 01/21/2009 6:44:45 AM PST by mia
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To: Antoninus
The church-going types (i.e., the real Catholics) did not.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

46% of Catholics who attend Mass regularly voted for Obama.

Too many leaders in our Christian churches ( Catholic and Protestant) preach the religion of Liberation Theology and worship Karl Marx instead of God. So?...When the Marxist Obama comes along is it any wonder that too many confuse him with God and voted for him?

38 posted on 01/21/2009 6:49:35 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: fabrizio
“You are going to get Catholic hospitals that are going to be required as a matter of law to perform abortions,”

I cannot see this occurring without the Catholics divesting themselves from these hospitals. If this were attempted it'd surely end up at the Supreme Court. If a public clash between the Obama White House and the Catholic Church came about what would this portend for the 2012 election? Papa Benedict XVI surely would not sit still for this, making his and the Vatican's viewpoint heard loudly.

On another point, can Obama be any more of a blatant hypocrite? He calls for inclusiveness and nondiscrimination yet wishes to dictate to private hospitals what their policies should be.

39 posted on 01/21/2009 6:56:22 AM PST by jla (Sarah! 45)
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To: jla
He calls for inclusiveness and nondiscrimination yet wishes to dictate to private hospitals what their policies should be.

Remember that these are just words that liberals use as masks. When they say inclusiveness and nondiscrimination it means inclusion in their positions and nondiscrimination against individuals and groups they specify. Everything else is fair game for discrimination. It is not self-consistent and therefore patently illogical and absurd, but then again these are liberals we're talking about.

40 posted on 01/21/2009 7:02:18 AM PST by chimera
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To: chimera; All

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/us/politics/11minister.html

Obama Names Minister for Pre-Inauguration Sermon
President-elect Barack Obama has selected the Rev. Sharon E. Watkins to deliver the sermon at the national prayer service that is held the day after the inauguration.

This is not a good sign, imho. Watkins seems a very poor choice.


41 posted on 01/21/2009 7:05:54 AM PST by khnyny ("The demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.")
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To: fabrizio

It appears that the road ahead is civil disobedience. The bishops should openly declare that Catholic hospitals will refuse to permit abortions at their facilities no matter how many laws are passed or writs handed down. It should be equated with a theoretical law passed in Nazi Germany requiring Catholic hospitals to permit Jewish extermination at their facilities (I don’t think even Hitler thought of that). Let it play out on the front pages and let them excommunicate any Catholic politician who takes a contrary position.


42 posted on 01/21/2009 7:12:14 AM PST by Inwoodian
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To: melsec
The Church needs to be willing to walk away from these services -

It happened in Massachusetts 3 years ago. It was mandated that all adoption services allow homosexual couples to adopt and the Catholic charity responsible for adoptions asked the State for an opt-out.

It was refused and the Boston Archdiocese ordered the service shut down in Massachusetts.

43 posted on 01/21/2009 7:13:51 AM PST by AU72
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To: wintertime
46% of Catholics who attend Mass regularly voted for Obama.

Where did you get that stat? I saw something like it and it turned out that 'regularly' equaled once per month.

Someone who goes to Mass once per month is not a good Catholic. In fact, in a typical month, they're committing at least three mortal sins.
44 posted on 01/21/2009 7:19:07 AM PST by Antoninus (America didn't turn away from conservatism, they turned away from many who faked it. - Mark Sanford)
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To: fabrizio

This is a legitimate reason to call for dissolution of the Union. I see more and more discussion of secession in the blogosphere. It is an undercurrent that is growing in strength. I do not believe that is any longer possible to change course in the federal government… for it has become a cancer-ravaged leviathan, seeking nothing but its own survival, and devouring all objective truth that dares challenge its progress. Secession is the only solution to its Marxist rampage and the atheism that strides along with it.


45 posted on 01/21/2009 7:27:52 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: SECURE AMERICA

“Anyone that speaks out against the homo fascists wil be targeted and destroyed.”

Ever hear of the Second Amendment? I am sure you have. The question remains to be this: Are you and the others willing to USE it for its INTENDED purpose, rather than blabber about “hunter’s rights” and other such diatribe?

The problem, as I see it, is that too many are convinced of the efficacy of our “legal system”... a system wholly perverted beyond reform. Those, who still believe in the folly of “working within the system,” if the true reason in their hearts were stated, it would be revealed that cowardice and selfish materialism is what restrains their hand from committing to the final check and balance allowed to the people by our Constitution.


46 posted on 01/21/2009 7:37:52 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: bperiwinkle7

Bankrupting the healt care system is their goal... that will be their excuse to implement mandated nationalized “death care”


47 posted on 01/21/2009 7:39:30 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: khnyny

“...Watkins seems a very poor choice.”

Can we please stop using the language of the enemy?

Call her what she is: pro-death, PRO-MURDER... A “SERIAL MURDERER” That is what “pro-choice” individuals truly ought to be called... MURDERERS ... for that are what they support and commit with glee. THESE PEOPLE WORSHIP BAAL! In fact, they are guilty of genocide. When the next Civil War comes, and IT IS COMING... these “pro-choice” goons will be tried for crimes against humanity, and summarily executed for the innocent blood they have shed.


48 posted on 01/21/2009 7:49:25 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: fabrizio
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

This is establishing bounds on religion.

And it is not an instance of Catholics or those of other Christian faiths promoting the use of illegal drugs, illegal child marriages, illegal polygamous marriages, or anything else illegal.

It is a case of saying "we will NOT...".

Those who want an abortion or to have a same sex marriage still have other hospitals and other religions they can go to.

You can no more force someone to perform an abortion than force them to execute a murderer (say we choose citizens like we do for jury duty and say "you there, pull the switch!").

49 posted on 01/21/2009 8:02:01 AM PST by a fool in paradise
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To: blessu

God forsaken American Cafeteria Catholics elected Obama; not Roman Catholic voters. There’s a significant difference.


50 posted on 01/21/2009 8:17:54 AM PST by glide625
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