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Is dissent still patriotic?
Denver Post ^ | 21 jan 09 | David Harsanyi

Posted on 01/21/2009 7:47:20 AM PST by rellimpank

Do all Americans truly have a yearning to fundamentally "remake" our nation? There must be a subversive minority out there that still believes the United States — even with its imperfections and sporadic recessions — is, in context, still a wildly prosperous and free country worth preserving.

Some of you must still believe that politicians are meant to serve rather than be worshiped. And there must be someone out there who considers partisanship a healthy, organic reflection of our differences rather than something to be surrendered in the name of so- called unity — which is, after all, untenable, subjective and utterly counterproductive.

How about those who praised dissent for the past eight years?

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
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To: rellimpank

Day One of the failed Obama administration. I don’t have a draft card anymore and I never did own a bra, so I’m torching my AARP card and a carton of Depends. It’s the best I can do.

41 posted on 01/21/2009 10:06:27 AM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Eye of Unk

“We must be adamant that right now dissent is a requirement.”


42 posted on 01/21/2009 10:16:47 AM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: AuntB
I think that dissent just for dissents sake is wrong. That's the problem I have with all the “dissenting” the libs do. If you're going to disagree with a policy or whatever then at least have another solution.
43 posted on 01/21/2009 10:28:48 AM PST by saleman (!!!!)
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To: Durus

“I will not give up my country to marxism by succession or any other method.”

Too late, you already have; because you hold fast to fighting on the enemy’s terms, which is why you have lost the battle to save your precious “union.” Traitors to the Republic killed us through incrimentalism... through indoctrination by media and GOVERNMENT MANDATED schooling. Just a Nikita Khrushchev stated the goal, so it has been effected. Those having your mindset, stood by and watched it happen without lifting a finger. Your response is that of a wimper, not a roar.

44 posted on 01/21/2009 10:30:12 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: shoutingandpointing

1. Barbara Ehrenreich:
“No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.”

In this age “rebellion and all-around hell raising” are but the tools of the anarchy.

2. David Ogilvy:
“Talent ... is most likely to be found among non-conformists, dissenters, and rebels.”

What talent? … Have you looked at what passes for “art,” “music,” and “writing” these days? The art of “non-conformists… and rebels” is hardly worth a bucket of spit.

3. Edward R. Murrow:
“No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. (about Senator Joseph McCarthy’s accusations about Communism in the American government)”

Senator Joseph McCarthy’s accusations about Communism in the American government were spot on accurate… and remain so.

4. Eric Hoffer:
“The beginning of thought is in disagreement — not only with others but also with ourselves.”

The lost art of controversy… and appreciation (to give a true rendering of a thing’s merits)

5. Evelyn Beatrice Hall:
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (paraphrasing Voltaire)”

Words have meaning, and ideas have consequences. Bad thinking leads to bad policies. Abortion, euthanasia, and homosexual marriage all started as ideas… then opinion… then acts. Some things have no moral defense, and ought not to be tolerated to show their face in civilization, EVER! Voltaire was a maniacal demon, and the consummation of his ideas was the Reign of Terror that marked the years 1789 – 1793… a bloodbath issued straight from Hell itself.

6. George Orwell:
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

Better to state that in a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a COUNTER-revolutionary act. Satan is the father of deceit, and the first Revolutionary.

7. J. William Fulbright:
“In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith.”

We are not a “democracy” but a representative republic. Democracy is the spawning ground of tyranny.

8. James Luther Adams:
“Nothing is complete and thus nothing is exempt from criticism.”

Criticism is not equal to controversy and appreciation. Denunciation without “enunciation” is of no aide to reason.

9. John F. Kennedy:
“Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed — and no republic can survive.”

Sad that JFK knew we are a republic… when today most are oblivious to the distinction.

10. John Lewis:
“We live in a country where we’re supposed to have freedom of the press and religious freedom, but I think to some degree, there’s a sense of fear in America today, that if you say the wrong thing, what some people will consider what is wrong, if you step out of line, if you dissent, whether you be an entertainer, that somehow and some way this government or the forces to be will come down on you.”

Religious Freedom is anti-religion, and anti-Christ. The State separated from God exists in a “state” of tyranny without limits. God is the author of the State and the grantor of power. All authority to govern comes from God. The people may select the man, but it is God who gives the authority to govern … and the wisdom to govern justly. To separate the Church and the State is to separate objective truth from justice, to eliminate restraint from power, and thus to beget tyranny.

11. William O. Douglas:
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.”

See response to quote number 5. Free speech leads to anarchy if not subjected to morality. Perhaps the best response is the following:

“Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites,—in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity,—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption,—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.” EDMUND BURKE, ‘Letter to a Member of the National Assembly’ 1791. - The Works of the Right Honorable Edmund Burke, vol. 4, pp. 51–52 (1899)

45 posted on 01/21/2009 10:30:57 AM PST by TCH (Another redneck clinging to guns and religion)
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To: saleman


46 posted on 01/21/2009 10:31:34 AM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925)
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To: Honor above all
"Great list. Thanks for sharing. Now, it seems that many of us here on FR need to take these things to heart and be prepared to stand up for our rights and to stand against their erosion. We must come together to be perceived as a serious movement. A serious force to be reckoned with. People need to be made to THINK. Where is this country going? Where do we want it to go? Vote. Speak. Argue. If you know people who are whining about their gun rights being taken away and yet they voted for Obama or any other liberal gun grabber, CALL them on it. Walk the talk. Because, Dissent IS patriotic..."


There is a time for talk and time to walk.

Drawing invisible lines in the sands of the ether does not work. Minds-to-like-minds by fingertip convinces no one watching from the sidelines of anything. Anyone who has raised a kid can tell you that simply calling them on their unacceptable behavior only serves to prove to them that they can do what they desire without ramifications beyond a tongue lashing. Without consequences, forgiveness becomes approval. Remember Colin Powell borrowing from Admiral Hopper: “It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.” Think back to when he so coyly uttered those words to the press and what he has done since. This is the core mindset and values system of the left.

The 2A? That is easy enough. “If you do not want a gun I will certainly support your right to not to have one, the same as I will support—I'll DEFEND—your right to/not-to subscribe to the Bugtussel Gazette, eat goose eggs and anchovies with chocolate syrup, or attend the Church of the Flaming Plastic Teacup. As for the gun I choose to keep: “MOLON LABE.”

Our tragic flaw as Christian Conservatives is we play fair with our sworn enemies, the ones who vow time and again not to oppose but to destroy us for our ideals. The time has come to accept the fact that our sense of fair play is what got us into this hole and continuing to play fair will not get us out of it. “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” If you are fighting to win, absolutely. The left has known, embraced, and practiced this philosophy forever. If we learn nothing else from the "new" left we must grasp what happens when individuals who come together in parity to form a group and further a greater cause allow fringe-element extremists to ascend to power unchecked.

A coup has taken place within the Democratic Party and by extension the Country. The party moderates are scared of their leadership, and with good reason. It shows. This only emboldens the empowered elitists at the top. They live their lives according to the rule that anything that does not stop them approves of them. They speak glowingly and often of compromise, but their actions are all-or-nothing rule by extremes. The left has closed its collective eyes and bowed their heads before a man and his myopic vision of utopia; in so doing they have forfeited their individualism and their sight. They are the willing blind and will be led where they would not otherwise go. Pray for them. Learn from their example. It was not that long ago that their party stood where we are now. Act accordingly.

If the center--the core and heart of society's fabric--does not hold together and pull its edges inward, those edges fray. The fringe produces extremists and radicals. Fringe radicalicalized ideologues are a civil society's undoing, and charismatic extremist radical ideologues are something far worse. Beware such individuals do not become disenfranchised--be they left, right, or otherwise. World Wars, genocide, ethnic cleansing, suicide cults, and terrorists are born of such evil.

So what are we to do? The old saw goes, “If you want to convince me of anything you have to stop talking and do something tangible.” The opposition is on the march. The time has come to stand up and be counted, shoulder to shoulder, unwavering in purpose and resolve, and walk not away from but headlong into the fight they have brought to us.


47 posted on 01/21/2009 11:09:18 AM PST by shoutingandpointing ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell)
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To: shoutingandpointing

Suggestions? I would ask the same of you. At this time it is still appropriate to resist and fight the tide in a peaceful, determined, legal manner. The minute people begin talking about armed resistance, the entire game changes, permanently and without the luxury of retraction. I suggest that many who are sitting in their arm chairs complaining are doing nothing more than that. Most don’t even take the time to join the NRA or GOA or any other group that is standing and assembling to defend our rights. If we did nothing more than coordinate and show up it would be enough to show the seriousness of our position. What would you suggest?

48 posted on 01/23/2009 10:09:32 AM PST by Honor above all (I'm only here to help.)
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To: Honor above all
Well stated.

EVERY time I contact my elected representatives I do so in triplicate: I email; I call; I write a letter and send it USPS. I make a point of stopping by the local office when I am in the vicinity—rarely, but it happens— just to say “Hello.”
I make a genuine effort to keep abreast of what is being voted on, what is in committee and upcoming on the agenda

Most of all, I do NOT contact my elected representatives only when I am displeased or concerned. I make a special point of letting them know when they “get it right.” Far too many citizens couldn't tell you who their Senators and Congressmen were if their very lives depended on it. Fewer still take the time to contact them by any means and of those who do it is most often to complain. PLEASE let them know when you approve of what they are doing.

VOTE. ALWAYS. No matter how local the election or issue, VOTE. That school board member, that city councilman, that dog catcher is more often than not the same person you see daily on the street or sing with in the church choir. Nothing you vote for impacts your daily life as acutely as the selections on the local ballot.

CAMPAIGN FOR the issues and candidates you believe in. Join and support those organizations and groups that fight for and further your principles, beliefs, and champion your causes, whatever they may be. Put that “I am the NRA and I VOTE” sticker on the back window next to the “NRA LIFE MEMBER” sticker. Remember that American Flag sticker Archie Bunker popularized? Its time has come again. It is OK to “quietly speak up.”

It is easy to point out what's wrong with the other side's idea or candidate. Fine. And your alternative is what? Without a viable and supportable argument you have no case. Any dope will choose the “something” option over the “nothing” option every time. Educate yourself. Know all sides—yes I said ALL—sides of the issues and arguments. You cannot expect to turn the other side's argument against itself if you do not have a complete understanding of that argument. Do your homework.

As for the ridiculous notion of “armed resistance,” NOTHING will cement the argument against your Second Amendment Right to own and keep a firearm more quickly and surely than talk of taking up arms against your duly elected, sworn, Constitutional and Legitimate Government. To those on the fringes or otherwise who advocate or hint at doing such, KNOCK IT OFF. We use the ballot box, not the bullet, to change, shape and, most importantly of all, preserve our government and way of life. I suggest that anyone who cannot understand that give serious consideration to spending some quality time outside the bunker and breathing some air that is not filled with CLP fumes.

You ask, “What would [I] suggest?” Fair enough. Pick one issue, a time and a place and show up. Repeat the process as necessary until each issue has had its day. No loud demonstrations, no chanting and ranting, no speeches even. Pick an issue; declare a “meeting of the hearts and minds”; show up and be counted; go home. Keep it simple and to the point so the message does not get lost in the details. Do not seek to make a scene or a spectacle; make a point. And leave it at that.

“Coordinate and show up.” There's your answer. Those two things more than anything else are what got the current POTUS elected. “Strength in numbers” is the kind of show of force that works. His people were and remain technology savvy, organized, coordinated, and goal oriented. IT IS A STRATEGY THAT WORKS. So what's our excuse?

49 posted on 01/23/2009 11:55:23 AM PST by shoutingandpointing ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell)
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