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Pope could welcome Holocaust denier back into the fold
The Times ^ | January 22, 2009 | Ruth Gledhill

Posted on 01/22/2009 12:15:18 PM PST by presidio9

The Pope is preparing to cancel the excommunication of four traditionalist Catholic bishops including one who believes the Holocaust never happened and the gas chambers were a myth.

Pope Benedict XVI has already signed the decree lifting the excommunication of the four bishops of the ultra-conservative Society of St Pius X, according to well-sourced reports in the Italian press today.

One of the bishops, Richard Williamson, an English former Anglican and graduate of Winchester and Cambridge, gave an interview to Swedish TV this week in which he said: “There were no gas chambers.”

The Pope, whose own position is towards the conservative wing of the Church, is understood to be keen to welcome the society's members, thought to number more than 150,000, back into the fold.

At a time when all hopes of unity with the Anglican Communion are now dead in the water, a reconciliation with traditionalists at the other end of the scale would be a dramatic gesture which, for Benedict, would set a triumphant seal on this week of Christian Unity.

However, Bishop Williamson’s statements on the Holocaust and comments he has made endorsing the anti-Semitic forgery the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, threaten to derail the Pope’s plans.

If Benedict XVI goes ahead with lifting the excommunication in spite of Bishop Williamson’s comments, that will in turn wreak havoc on more than 40 years of attempts to rebuild relations with the Jewish community after nearly two millenniums of Christian anti-Semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

The damage will be doubled, coming as it will on top of the Pope’s revival of the Tridentine Mass last year with its Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; catholic; cult; holocaust; jews; melgibson; pope; presidiot9
The author of this article seems to be laboring under the assumption that Popes have the power to excommunicate men for ignorance. And like a lot of Anglicans these days she is very preoccupied with a reconciliation between the two churches. She should start by understanding the limits of Papal authority.
1 posted on 01/22/2009 12:15:19 PM PST by presidio9
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To: SJackson

ping


2 posted on 01/22/2009 12:17:05 PM PST by Perdogg (Only the hypnotized never lie)
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To: presidio9

Golly, did you know that the Holocaust was the result of Christian anti-semitism?


3 posted on 01/22/2009 12:21:15 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: presidio9

Wasn’t Williamson excommunicated for unlawful (church law) extra-church consecrations in an attempt to make some sort of antisemitic bastard offshoot of the Church? It wasn’t that he was excommunicated for ignorance, he was trying to create basically, a neo-Nazi type church sect.


4 posted on 01/22/2009 12:21:57 PM PST by mnehring
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To: presidio9

Exactly!

Whether or not Hitler tried to exterminate all the Jews is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of history. The pope cannot excommunicate people for ignorance of history.


5 posted on 01/22/2009 12:21:57 PM PST by StonyMan451
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism Ping List.

If you'd like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

High volume.

..................

6 posted on 01/22/2009 12:31:41 PM PST by SJackson (The American people are wise in wanting change, 2 terms is plenty, Condi Rice)
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To: Mr. Lucky

Retraction, Remorse, Remission of Sins: If these three are met, no one should have any real problem.


7 posted on 01/22/2009 12:33:54 PM PST by Steelfish (Our Winning Video)
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To: AbeLincoln
Whether or not Hitler tried to exterminate all the Jews is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of history. The pope cannot excommunicate people for ignorance of history.

Nor will he, they were excommunicated twenty years ago, and it had nothing to do with the fact that Williamson is a Jewhater. He'll be correcting what was presumably a mistake made by Pope John Paul II.

8 posted on 01/22/2009 12:37:04 PM PST by SJackson (The American people are wise in wanting change, 2 terms is plenty, Condi Rice)
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To: AbeLincoln; presidio9
The pope cannot excommunicate people for ignorance of history.

I don't think these guys are "ignorant". Ignorance is the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
No one can be unaware or uninformed of the holocaust.
These guys are Holocaust deniers.
So the real question is can the Pope excommunicate those who deny facts of history?

9 posted on 01/22/2009 12:39:29 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: presidio9

Williamson is a nutcase and has rejected several overtures from Rome. I think Rome will go ahead with this one, the other bishops will accept, he won’t, and that’s how they’ll finally get rid of him.

But I see the attack dogs have been called out. Why is it so important to the left that this reunion between a relatively obscure movement, from a world stage point of view, and Rome be prevented or disparaged?


11 posted on 01/22/2009 12:55:03 PM PST by livius
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To: mnehrling
denier back into the fold, mnehrling wrote: Wasn’t Williamson excommunicated for unlawful (church law) extra-church consecrations in an attempt to make some sort of antisemitic bastard offshoot of the Church? It wasn’t that he was excommunicated for ignorance, he was trying to create basically, a neo-Nazi type church sect.

You have your facts mixed up. In 1988 Williamson and three other priests were excommunicated when French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre consecrated them bishops without Papal approval. As with most excommunications, John Paul II didn't actually excommunitcate them. He sent them a letter telling them they had excommunicated themselves by their action. This had nothing do do with break-away factions, conspiracies, or neo-nazi sects. If John Cardinal Egan here in NYC decided to elevate me to bishop, and I accempted the appointment, we would both instantaneously excommunicate ourselves, whether the Pope informed us or not. I have no idea if any of these men will be returning to the faith as ordained priests, but I can guarantee you that they will not be bishops. So the cause of their excomunication has been rectified. The Catholic faith does not hold grudges.

Meanwhile, I'm suprised that you brought this up in the first place. I was responding to the author, who took issue with the fact that the excommunication had been lifted, in spite of the Holocaust denials. Ms. Gledhill also took issue with things like the Tridentine prayer for the conversion of Jews, ect. While these sorts of topics may cause discomfort in polite dinner conversation, they are very much in keeping with Catholic doctrine: Not that we want to force Jews to convert, just that we believe tha that would be the easiest way for them to get to Heaven (which is, for Catholics, life's purpose).

Im short, untill Ms. Gledhill does her homework and gains a better understanding of Catholic Theology and its concepts, she would probabally be better off minding her own business. That advice would serve you well too.

12 posted on 01/22/2009 1:02:45 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9

thanks


13 posted on 01/22/2009 1:06:15 PM PST by mnehring
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To: presidio9
I'm suprised that you brought this up in the first place. I was responding to the author, who took issue with the fact that the excommunication had been lifted, in spite of the Holocaust denials.

I brought this up because my memory (apparently flawed) was the main reason was his extra-church attempt to start this offshoot based on his own beliefs.. I was wrong on that so it is moot.

14 posted on 01/22/2009 1:07:37 PM PST by mnehring
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To: SJackson
Middle East and terrorism Ping List.

I have respect for you and your ping list, but this story has absolutely nothing to do with the Middle East or Terrorism. The cursury relationship with antisemitism is only based on the author's need to bring it up. Catholics can't be excommunicated for being stupid. They can also make their own decision to end the excommunication whenever they wish.

15 posted on 01/22/2009 1:11:04 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: Riodacat
So the real question is can the Pope excommunicate those who deny facts of history?

Answer: No. The Catholic Church is in the saving souls today business, not the history business.

16 posted on 01/22/2009 1:12:46 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
If Benedict XVI goes ahead with lifting the excommunication in spite of Bishop Williamson’s comments, that will in turn wreak havoc on more than 40 years of attempts to rebuild relations with the Jewish community after nearly two millenniums of Christian anti-Semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

Williamson's excommunication had nothing to do with his statements about the Holocaust, so they will have nothing to do with the Vatican's decision about whether or not his excommunication is lifted.

And no, "Christian anti-Semitism" had nothing to do with the Holocaust, either.

17 posted on 01/22/2009 1:15:07 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: presidio9
I ping lots of articles related to antisemitism and Judiasm, particularly when they're in the news forum and someone on my list has pinged me to them.

That said this isn't much of an issue, since the excommunication isn't being lifted on Bishop Williamson, and his antisemitic views are part of his religious doctrine, rather a group of whom he's simply a member and for a matter unrelated to Jewhatred or conspiracy theories.

18 posted on 01/22/2009 1:18:03 PM PST by SJackson (The American people are wise in wanting change, 2 terms is plenty, Condi Rice)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: SJackson

That’s why I posted it. Liberals love to invent antsemetic conspiracy theories to attack the Catholic Church.


20 posted on 01/22/2009 1:28:51 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
Answer: No. The Catholic Church is in the saving souls today business, not the history business.

Really?

21 posted on 01/22/2009 2:19:43 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: mnehrling

Feel free to go to
http://www.sspx.org
and determine whether it is a “a neo-Nazi type church sect”.


22 posted on 01/22/2009 2:26:56 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: Riodacat

Let’s pretend your snarky one word response is too vague for a highly-intelligent person to decipher: Are you actually under the impression that the Catholic Church is not in the eternal souls busines? Or that it is in factual interpretation of history business? Do you believe that a Pope has the authority to excommunicate a Catholic who is merely wrong about something?

Keep in mind that the most important Christian who ever lived was unquestionably Saint Paul.


23 posted on 01/22/2009 2:28:16 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is for the most part very good, from what I have heard. There may be some wacko’s in the group (who should be dealt with), but if you look at left-wing of the Church as a whole (80% to 90% of the Church!!), the libs certainly seem to have the SSPX beat in the wacko department!! Strangely, one never sees stories of this type in the mainstream media about the lefties.

The Catholic Church is currently at war with itself, as the liberals try to take over once and for all, similar to what is happening in the Anglican Church. Anytime a Conservative part of the Catholic Church (frequently, but not always, people associated with the Traditional Latin Mass) is presented in the media, they are always presented in some sort of negative light. Such seems to be the case with the SSPX.

The SSPX is technically in schism from the Church (although there is a lot of debate about that too, but I will leave that discussion to others!!). Hence, I have stayed away from their Chapels. However, I have heard very good things about them from Catholics who DO elect to attend their Chapels on occasion. They run schools and seminaries all over the world, and were in full communion with the Church until about 20 years ago. They have done a lot of good work out in the world. It would be good to have the SSPX back in the fold, as they are a large organization, and a Conservative one, and we will need them for what lies ahead (militant Conservative Christianity seems to be so lacking nowadays).

The liberals within the Church, of course, know all of this too. The last thing they want are more Conservatives in the Church, and rather militant ones at that. It is expected that the left will oppose the lifting of the excommunications with every weapon in their arsenal. However, the Pope is the Pope, and he can do as he sees fit.

In addition, there might be even more politics at work here, beyond what I mentioned above. There are those within the SPPX itself who DO oppose reunion with the Church, because they really have gone off the FAR deep end on the right side of the pool (or so I have read). They feel that they represent the Church in exile. One writer on the Web yesterday suggested that Williamson is one of these, and wishes to prevent the SSPX from coming back into communion with the Church. That writer suggested that Williamson gave this interview on purpose, to try to scuttle a reunification that he does not want to happen.

So who knows?? We will probably never know the full truth. One thing for certain is that too many people in this situation seem to have some sort of agenda they are trying to push (mostly on the left). My overall feeling is that it would be good to have the SSPX back in the fold, as long as they are willing to play nice within the hierarchy, like all Catholics are supposed to (it is mainly the liberals who feel they are exempt from this!!).

It will be interesting to watch this unfold. If the excommunications are lifted, and the SSPX returns to full communion, I may even pop over to their local Chapel myself to attend Mass.

Pray the God's will may be done in this, and in all situations.

24 posted on 01/22/2009 2:51:40 PM PST by Zetman
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To: presidio9
It seems to me that the Catholic Church IS in the history business (exactly the opposite of what you say).
In fact, the truthful interpretation and perpetuation of historical TRUTH (as it sees it) is exactly the business it is in.
Why can't the Pope excommunicate someone who deliberately denies and continues to deny such an important historical fact as the holocaust.
Could he excommunicate someone who denied Christ died on the cross (another historical fact)?
Some historical facts ARE important. The holocaust is one of them.
Sorry if I came across snarky.
25 posted on 01/22/2009 3:26:16 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: steve86; mnehrling
Seem pretty mainstream to me, but that part about The Catholic Church’s teaching is that they should neither be eliminated from among us (as antisemitism seeks) nor given equality of rights, which leads to their superiority (as is advocated by liberalism or philosemitism)., is that really mainstream Catholic belief.? More at your link, but in my experience this isn't mainstream Catholicism.

Theological Conclusions

There is a theological opposition —that is to say, one arranged by God —which exists throughout Christian history between the Synagogue and the Church, between Christians and Jews, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. What is indispensable at this point is to put down the theological conclusions in the light of which history must be interpreted.

First Conclusion: The Jewish people, whose destiny was to bring Christ to us, found Christ a stumbling block. A part of them believed in Him, and built on Him to form the roots and the trunk of that Olive Tree which is the Catholic Church. The other part fell, denying Him and invoking their carnal pride of race and nation. That part of Israel was rejected, and called upon itself the blood of Christ as a curse. It is this part that forms Judaism proper, which is the heir and the continuation of the rabbis who rejected Christ.

Second Conclusion: Judaism is inimical to all nations in general, and in a special manner to Christian nations. It plays the part of Ishmael who persecuted Isaac, of Esau who sought to kill Jacob, and of Cain who put Abel to death. St. Paul, the converted Jew, says:

"For you brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men." (I Thess. 2:14,15)

Take note of St. Paul’s terrible and very important fact, written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, the adversarial relationship of the Jewish people is not a local enmity, or one based on blood, or on conflicting interests. It is an enmity disposed by God. The Jewish people, if it has not converted to Christianity, will, even if it does not wish to, seek to ruin Christianity, as Jesus Christ said when speaking to the Pharisees:

"You are of your father the devil, and the desire of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof." (Jn. 8:44)

Third Conclusion: If the unrepentant Jewish people are disposed by God to be a theological enemy, the status of this opposition must be universal, inevitable, and terrible.

Universal, because it must extend to all nations. Wherever Christendom extends, the Jewish people goes, too. There is no way of avoiding this, because it is theological.

Christendom and Jewry are destined inevitably to meet everywhere without reconciliation or mixing. It represents in history the eternal struggle of Lucifer against God, of darkness against the Light, of the flesh against the spirit. It represents in time the spiritual accomplishing and the fleshly accomplishing of the Scriptures. The Letter must be everywhere to be the servant of the Spirit. It is with this understanding St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us that the Jewish people is the servant of the Church.

It is a terrible enmity, because it is theological. There is a mystery of iniquity in the Jewish people, as we are taught by St. Jerome and St. Justin, echoing Jesus Christ and the preaching of the Apostles. Jesus Christ anathematized them, calling them hypocrites and liars because the Pharisees practiced enmity under pretense of doing good. They only perpetuate what they did once to Christ.

Fourth Conclusion: Ever since Christ was lifted up on Mount Calvary, the world has been subjected to two truly opposite forces: the Jewish force and the Christian.

In the world as it is, there can be only two truly basic modes, two poles of attraction: the Christian and the Jewish. Only two religions: Christian and Jewish. All that is not of Christ and for Christ is done in favor of Judaism. It follows from that, that the de-Christianizing of the world runs parallel to its Judaizing.

Why are only these two modes possible? Because they are the only ones willed by God, they are the only theological ones. God has divided the world between Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, and Christ and the Anti-Christ. All human energies must serve one front or the other.

That is why the Gentile peoples, we to whom the vocation to the Catholic Church is freely offered, have only two roads ahead to us: to Christianize ourselves or to Judaize ourselves, to be part of the Olive Tree of the Church or of the sterile Vine of Judaism, to be sons of Sarah the free woman, or else of Hagar the bondwoman.

If the Gentile people wishes to be free and great, it has no other solution than to humbly adhere to the Catholic Church. It can have no other greatness than the incomparable greatness of the Christian nations of the Middle Ages, which forged saints and heroes, raised the cathedrals, educated the peoples by the examples of the saints, gave them an understanding of beauty by Gregorian Chant and the frescoes of Fra Angelico and Giotto, and elevated their understanding with the Summa Theologica of the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas.

If the Gentile people now considers this genuine greatness of the medieval age as gloomy or obscurantist, and wishes to be great with the material greatness of Babylon, then it can have it: but only as a servant of Judaism. In the domain of the material, it is the Jewish people who have the superiority. History tells us (Werner Sombart) that the renowned greatness of English and American Capitalism is only a Judaic creation. While Capitalism fulfills its promises and is unquestionably of incomparable material greatness, it compromises the work of millions of Christians for the benefit of a much smaller number of the Jewish people.

Fifth Conclusion: The only protection of the Gentile people against enslaving itself to the material superiority of the Jewish people is the Catholic life. This is because Jesus Christ alone is the Savior of all mankind. Note that the Middle Ages did not succumb to material mastery for centuries.

Cautious of its theological disposition, the Catholic Church applied wise laws to the Jewish people, and was vigilant against their perversion of Catholics. The Catholic Church, however, has never hated the Jewish people. On the contrary, it has always prayed and asked prayers for its spiritual well-being, and defended them against harassment and unjust persecution. This has not gone unrecognized by the Jewish people itself. So, for instance, when in France (1807) the Jewish Sanhedrin met publicly for the first time in centuries, it rendered public homage to the benevolence of the Popes in a document that one can still read today:

"The Israelite Deputies of the Empire of France and of the Kingdom of Italy, at the Hebrew Synod decreed on the 30th May ult., inspired with gratitude for the successive benefits that the Christian clergy has bestowed in past centuries on the Israelites of different European States, and full of gratitude for the welcome which diverse Popes in different epochs have given to Israelites of various countries when barbarism, prejudice and ignorance combined to persecute the Jews and expel them from society, declare as follows:

That the expression of these sentiments shall be recorded in the minutes of today so as to remain forever an authentic witness to the gratitude of the Israelites of this assembly for the benefits which the generations preceding us have received from ecclesiastics of different European countries." (From Collection of the Acts of the Assembly of the Israelites of France and the Kingdom of Italy by Diogene Tama.)

Sixth Conclusion: Under pain of sin, Catholics cannot hate the Jewish people, cannot persecute them or prevent them to live, nor disturb them in their private practice of their laws and customs. But, they must nevertheless preserve themselves from the danger they represent. Catholics are not to enter into commercial, social, nor political relations which are bound hypocritically to seek the ruin of Christendom. Jews must not live together with Christians because this is what their own Jewish laws ordain and also because their errors and material superiority have virulent consequences among other peoples. If the other peoples reject these precautions, they will invite upon themselves these consequences, namely, to serve the Jewish people to whom belongs superiority in the kingdom of the material.

Seventh Conclusion: In the wandering and pitiable life of the Jewish people one must discover the Christian mystery. This is magnificently demonstrated by the converted Jew, Fr. Joseph Lehmann, in his book L’entrée des Israelites dans la société française (p. 3). The Jews were responsible —directly and/or indirectly —for covering the Just One with insults, throwing over His shoulders a cloak of contempt, putting on His head a crown of thorns and into His hands a reed. With striking, spitting, insults, and injury they lavished on Him every sort of humiliation. They spared Him no shame. Finally, He was sold for the slave’s price of 30 pieces of silver.

Ever since, similar insults have been visited upon the Jewish people as a chastisement and penalty for its deed. Moses himself warned:

"And thou shalt be lost, as a proverb and a byword to all people, among whom the Lord shall bring thee in [will lead you away]." (Deut. 28:37)

How long must this terrible enmity between Jews and Christians last? Until God in His mercy brings about the conversion and reconciliation of the Jewish people. St. Paul teaches us that the day will come when Israel will recognize Him whom he has denied:

"For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Rom. 11:25,26)

When the moment arrives (which is in the hands of God), then Esau will be reconciled with Jacob, that is to say, the Jews will become Catholics, and the words of the prophet Ezekiel, five centuries before Christ, will be fulfilled:

"...Thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the midst of the nations whither they are gone: and I will gather them on every side, and will bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king over them all: and they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided any more into two kingdoms. Nor shall they be defiled any more with their idols, nor with their abominations, nor with all their iniquities: and I will save them out of all the places in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." (Ezek. 37:21-23)

Then all will be one in Christ because the Jewish people will convert from its Judaism and the Christians will be Christians in earnest, and peace will become a reality as the fruit of justice and charity, in Him Who promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is Jesus Christ, the Blessing of all the ages.

The Jewish and Christian Peoples

The relations of Christians and Jews cannot be governed by the common law of Christians, but only by an exceptional legislation which takes count of the theological status of the Jewish people. The Catholic Church’s teaching is that they should neither be eliminated from among us (as antisemitism seeks) nor given equality of rights, which leads to their superiority (as is advocated by liberalism or philosemitism).

The Catholic Church has always had the habit of praying for the Jewish people, which was the depository of the Divine Promises up to the coming of Jesus Christ, in spite of this people’s blindness. More than that, it has done so on account of that very blindness. Ruled by the same charity, the Apostolic See has protected this people against unjust vexations, and just as it reproves all hatred between peoples, so it condemns hatred against the people formerly chosen by God, that hatred that ordinarily goes by the name of Antisemitism (from the Decree of the Holy Office, 25 March, 1928).

The Jewish people must live among Christians as a blind witness to the Christian truth, like a spur to keep us faithful. The Catholic Church teaches that it must not be exterminated (for the Jewish people bears the mark of Cain given it by God so no one would kill it) nor frequented (for God warns of its danger). As once they treated Christ, ever since, to persecute Christianity is their theological preoccupation.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he, that was born according to the flesh [i.e., Ishmael], persecuted him that was after the spirit [i.e., Isaac]; so also it is now." (Gal. 4:28,29)

This theological law is stronger than all human plans and expedients. The Jewish people realizes this law. The law contained in the Talmud, which governs Jews, orders enmity with Christians.

The celebrated rabbi, Paulus L.B. Drach, who converted to the Catholic Church, authored a valuable work on the Talmud, De l’harmonie entre l’église et le synagogue (ed. Paul Melier, Paris 1844). The Talmud is the corpus of Jewish doctrine, to which the most authentic teachers of Israel in different periods have contributed. It is the complete civil and religious code of the Synagogue. Its object is to explain the Law of Moses in conformity with verbal tradition, and includes discussions of doctors. Although the Christian reader will sometimes be repelled, for one reason or another, he will get valuable information to help explain obscure passages in the New Testament. From the time of the Captivity in Babylon (586 BC), the authority of the rabbis took the place of that of Moses and the Prophets. Rules for the temporal development of the people got more important than rules for religious betterment.

The Talmud got particularly virulent after Christianity appeared. Insolent and sacrilegious infamies against Christ and Christians were written into it, which is why copies were burnt by order of Christian rulers and popes. Hence, a Jewish synod in Poland in 1631 ordered all in the Talmud that related to Christ and Christians to be suppressed, saying:

"...when you publish a new edition of these books, leave blank the pages referring to Jesus of Nazareth, making a circle like an O; and every rabbi or other teacher will take care not to teach these passages except verbally. In this way, learned Christians will have nothing to reproach us with on this, and we will live in peace."

We have already discussed the spiritual greatness of the nation from which Christ came. Israel is so great in whatever he does that it is unable to perpetrate evil except also in a great, a terrible way. We will discuss four of these ways. He is a consecrated lineage which, if he saves us in Christ, ruins us in the Antichrist. Yet, Christians cannot hate him, only lament him. Jewish writers like Barnard Lazare recognize this, the Jewish people forged as it is by the spirit of the rabbis.

The rabbis had separated Israel from the community of nations; they had made the people a wild solitary people, rebellious against all law, hostile to all fraternity, shut against every beautiful, noble and generous ideal; a miserable little nation made bitter by isolation, made brutish by a narrow education, demoralized and corrupted by an unjustifiable pride (l’Antisemitisme, v.1, p.57).

 


26 posted on 01/22/2009 4:09:50 PM PST by SJackson (The American people are wise in wanting change, 2 terms is plenty, Condi Rice)
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To: presidio9
The Pope may do as wishes religiously. I think it would behoove him and the Church, for this former conscript of the Hitler youth to denounce the non-religious historical lunacy of the Holocaust denier.
It is wrong to blame the type of traditional Catholic anti-Jewish beliefs for the Holocaust (see post #26). But it is undeniable that interpretations which have led to SSPX's belief that Jews are evil enemies of society who should be segregated certainly make extermination viable. Frankly, I consider SSPX to be an insult to the memory Pope Puis X and I cannot understand why Pope Benedict would allow the return of unrepentant schismatics.
27 posted on 01/22/2009 6:31:34 PM PST by rmlew (The loyal opposition to a regime dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution are accomplices.)
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To: rmlew

Trying to converse with an sspx-er is about as fun as a root canal.


28 posted on 01/22/2009 6:34:14 PM PST by Scotswife (GO ISRAEL!!!)
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To: Riodacat

Please explain how the Catholic Church is, as you say, in the history business, and perhaps I will begin to understand what you are talking about. Bear in mind the fact that Chirst’s death and resurrection is, for the most part a matter of faith, not historical record. Conversely, the Holocaust is a historical event, which has nothing specifically to do with the Catholic faith. In other words, someone who denied that Christ died on the cross (a matter of faith - muslims believe exactly that, and nobody has any way of proving it one way or the other) would not be a Catholic in the first place. If they were a Catholic who came to belive such a thing, they would excommunicate themselves. Meanwhile, there are millions of “Catholics” who deny other things, such as the Immaculate Conception. Such people have a lesser claim to Catholicism than the Holocaust denier, because they are inventing their own rules, and their own religion. You also need to keep in mind that no Catholic believes that you are a good person simply because you are practicing the faith. There are plenty of practicing Catholics who are wrong about a multitude of things. As I pointed out earlier, the most important Catholic who ever lived was a Turkish Jew who started his life as a persecuter, torturer and possibly even cricifier of Christians. And yet the early Christian community accepted him readily. He went on to write most of the New Testament. Why? Because Christ taught us all not to judge. Deny the faith and you’re out, but you don’t stop being a Catholic just for being stupid.

If you are still having trouble with this, it may be because the Holocaust is such an emotional subject for all of us (but especially for liberal writers who attack the Church at every opportunity). Pick another human tragedy on the scale of the Holocaust: The Armenian Genocide, Rawanda, the Native American plight, etc. Could a person dispute any of these and still be a practicing Catholic? The answer is of course yes.


29 posted on 01/23/2009 3:33:03 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
If you are still having trouble with this, it may be because the Holocaust is such an emotional subject for all of us (but especially for liberal writers who attack the Church at every opportunity). Pick another human tragedy on the scale of the Holocaust: The Armenian Genocide, Rawanda, the Native American plight, etc. Could a person dispute any of these and still be a practicing Catholic? The answer is of course yes.

Sorry, no sale here..
If someone denies the Rawanda massacre and deliberatly spreads falsehoods about it not taking place and does not recant that position, then I think the Pope has the right to excommunicate that individual.

30 posted on 01/23/2009 4:53:40 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: Riodacat
I think we are having a problem of miscommunication here. I have no need to convince you that that the Pope made the correct decision. He did. That point is not debatable. The problem seems to be that you don't fully understand the concept of excommunication or the role of the Pope. I'm guessing that you are not a Catholic, correct? As I said before, virtually all excommunications happen because the the individual excommunicated himself. The term literally means to withdraw from conscious contact from Christ. Any sinner is effectively excommunicated until he repents and is absolved through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The Pope does not excommunicate individuals for sinful acts, because that would imply that he could see into their hearts. That's left for the individual and God to know. That's one of the reasons why priests who molest boys don't get excommunicated, nor do “Catholic” politicians who are friendly to legalized abortion like John Kerry, or Nancy Pelosi. Whether you like to admit it or not, their sins are greater than denying history. You can be wrong about a lot of things and still practice Catholicism. For a thousand years the Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the Universe.

The Pope generally only excommunicates someone these days in cases of outright heresy, or when members of the hierarchy take authority not given to them. As was the case here. Heresy recanted, reason for Excommunication goes away. Jesus took in nothing but sinners, and if Hitler himself had decided to become a Catholic, while the Holocaust was still going on, the appropriate Catholic response would be to embrace the monster and hope that he learned by our example. If this doesn't make perfect sense to you, then your problem is that you don't understand Catholicism. My suggestion to you is that you talk to a local priest. He'll tell you the exact same thing.

31 posted on 01/24/2009 3:50:56 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: Riodacat
I think we are having a problem of miscommunication here. I have no need to convince you that that the Pope made the correct decision. He did. That point is not debatable. The problem seems to be that you don't fully understand the concept of excommunication or the role of the Pope. I'm guessing that you are not a Catholic, correct? As I said before, virtually all excommunications happen because the the individual excommunicated himself. The term literally means to withdraw from conscious contact from Christ. Any sinner is effectively excommunicated until he repents and is absolved through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The Pope does not excommunicate individuals for sinful acts, because that would imply that he could see into their hearts. That's left for the individual and God to know. That's one of the reasons why priests who molest boys don't get excommunicated, nor do “Catholic” politicians who are friendly to legalized abortion like John Kerry, or Nancy Pelosi. Whether you like to admit it or not, their sins are greater than denying history. You can be wrong about a lot of things and still practice Catholicism. For a thousand years the Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the Universe.

The Pope generally only excommunicates someone these days in cases of outright heresy, or when members of the hierarchy take authority not given to them. As was the case here. Heresy recanted, reason for Excommunication goes away. Jesus took in nothing but sinners, and if Hitler himself had decided to become a Catholic, while the Holocaust was still going on, the appropriate Catholic response would be to embrace the monster and hope that he learned by our example. If this doesn't make perfect sense to you, then your problem is that you don't understand Catholicism. My suggestion to you is that you talk to a local priest. He'll tell you the exact same thing.

32 posted on 01/24/2009 3:51:03 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
Not that we want to force Jews to convert, just that we believe tha that would be the easiest way for them to get to Heaven (which is, for Catholics, life's purpose).

Correction, this is the ONLY way for them to get to heaven.
33 posted on 01/25/2009 12:13:16 PM PST by Lukasz
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To: Riodacat

Why? Because Vatican is not theocratic regime that would wish to stick its nose everywhere. You also should get over and concentrate on the rules of the church that you are member.


34 posted on 01/25/2009 2:00:12 PM PST by Lukasz
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To: Lukasz
Vatican is not theocratic regime that would wish to stick its nose everywhere

Agreed that they are selective as to where they stick their nose..

35 posted on 01/25/2009 4:29:55 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: Riodacat

You knowledge of basic values on which western civilization was built is disappointing...


36 posted on 01/26/2009 9:27:12 AM PST by Lukasz
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To: Riodacat
Agreed that they are selective as to where they stick their nose..

"The greater fool opens his mouth and removes all doubt." The Catholic Church never "sticks its nose" where it is not appropriate. Where it is appropriate, the Catholic Church has no choice. You have the right to ignore what is said by any man or organization. You have the right to disagree with what is being said. You even have the right to say dumb things yourself (as evidenced by this discussion). You do not have the right not to be offended.

I'm curious why you have thus far failed to mention you own faith as an alternative to Catholicism. Does it embarass you?

37 posted on 01/28/2009 7:35:41 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: rmlew
It would help your credibility if you would Pay Attention.

Even crAP managed to notice this ...

38 posted on 01/28/2009 7:47:38 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
It would help your credeibility if oyu learned how to read. I posted my comment on January 22nd. The Pope did the right thing on the 27th.
You made a fool of yourself the same day.
39 posted on 01/28/2009 9:45:27 AM PST by rmlew (The loyal opposition to a regime dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution are accomplices.)
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To: rmlew
Wow ... so you're really good at talking smack about the Vatican ... but can't manage to notice the Pope doing something right until your nose is rubbed in it.

Nice.

40 posted on 01/28/2009 9:50:20 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: presidio9
I'm curious why you have thus far failed to mention you own faith as an alternative to Catholicism. Does it embarass you?

Faith has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike Holocaust deniers, whether they're Iranian leaders or excommunicated catholics, or Hindus or agnostics.
That the Catholic church welcomes unrepentent Holocaust deniers into their midst is outrageous - IMHO.

41 posted on 01/28/2009 1:10:28 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Wow ... so you're really good at talking smack about the Vatican ... but can't manage to notice the Pope doing something right until your nose is rubbed in it.
You certainly live up to your moniker. I did not compliment the Pope because I did not believe his comments went far enough. The sad thing is that I defended the church in two conversations today. But your kind can't imagine a Jew who appreciate the Church, but sees a lapse. You are driven by the same grievance defined thinking that the churches critics are. Stop projecting and grow up.
42 posted on 01/28/2009 11:00:16 PM PST by rmlew (The loyal opposition to a regime dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution are accomplices.)
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To: rmlew
I answered you civilly on the other thread, and will be happy to continue doing so if you remain civil. But here?

But your kind can't imagine

"Your kind"????

Stick it, buster!

43 posted on 01/29/2009 4:36:40 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Riodacat
Faith has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike Holocaust deniers, whether they're Iranian leaders or excommunicated catholics, or Hindus or agnostics. That the Catholic church welcomes unrepentent Holocaust deniers into their midst is outrageous - IMHO.

Faith has everything to do with this discussion, as you are attacking the Roman Catholic faith, but your clear insecurity about your own faith prevents you from naming it. Why else would someone so opinionate refuse to answer a simple question?

You have demonstrated zero understanding of the concept of excommunication, but you continue to make demands about its use. If you step back and look at what I just said objectively, even you must realize how ignorant you sound. The fact is that ecommunication isn't really even a punishiment in the sense that you seem to think it is. As I've already said, the vast majority of such people excommuicate themselves, without the Pope ever hearing of them. And it means exactly the same thing.

Which brings us to you: Since you're not saying, I'm going to guess from what you have said that you are not a Christian. I, too, "dislike Holocaust deniers." In the abstract. But one of the central tenets of Christianity is to love your enemies. That's why I said the Catholic Church would welcome Hitler if he were intersted. That's why the most important Christian who ever lived was St. Paul, a Jewish persecuter of Christians who was at least as bad as any SS stormtrooper or concentration camp comander. Christianity means leading by example and letting God judge our neighbors. So you see, when you attack the Catholic Church for welcoming back a Holocaust denier, you are actually attacking the essence of Christianity. I realize that your ignorance of much talked about but seldom understood concepts like excommunication led you to make that error. I also susupect that the concept of loving one's enemies probably foreign to you. For that I'll say a prayer that you get the help you need.

44 posted on 01/29/2009 1:59:19 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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To: presidio9
Thanks for the personal attacks.

45 posted on 01/29/2009 2:34:29 PM PST by Riodacat (Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.)
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To: Riodacat

None of what I said was a “personal attack.” Everything was backed be clear reason and fact. If you were particularly offended by something I said why not address it, and we’ll see if we can come to some sore of understanding. Failure to address any of the points I made, other than to post “thanks for the personal attacks” is not only lame, and a copout, it also serves as an implicit admission that that you have been wrong up until now and you are finally beginning see the light. Good luck with that.


46 posted on 01/29/2009 2:53:26 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam Is As Islam Does)
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