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New Aluminum "Catalyst" Makes Hydrogen From Water (i.e., liberals going crazy over perpetual motion)
Science Magazine ^ | January 23, 2009 | Patrick J. Roach, W. Hunter Woodward,1 A. W. Castleman, Jr., Arthur C. Reber, Shiv N. Khanna

Posted on 01/23/2009 8:13:56 PM PST by OldGuard1

So, this paper was published recently in Science Magazine:

Complementary Active Sites Cause Size-Selective Reactivity of Aluminum Cluster Anions with Water

The reactions of metal clusters with small molecules often depend on cluster size. The selectivity of oxygen reactions with aluminum cluster anions can be well described within an electronic shell model; however, not all reactions are subject to the same fundamental constraints. We observed the size selectivity of aluminum cluster anion reactions with water, which can be attributed to the dissociative chemisorption of water at specific surface sites. The reactivity depends on geometric rather than electronic shell structure. Identical arrangements of multiple active sites in Al16–, Al17–, and Al18– result in the production of H2 from water.


Basically, it's talking about how if you make tiny particles of aluminum, you can prevent them from forming an impermiable oxide layer, making them reactive with water. As the aluminum reacts, it releases hydrogen, which could be used in hydrogen cars.

Great. Scientific research in progress, right?

Well, apparently liberal groups have taken this research and either completely missed over the fact that the aluminum is consumed in the process or are convinced that turning the consumed aluminum back to normal is a trivial step. For example, on Daily Kos, a single thread on the topic (out of a couple) has attracted hundreds of posts, almost all of which are oohing and aahing over what they see as free energy. And when some people try to point out that trivial thing called physics to them, they usually get shouted down. Example:

nosleep4u: "they still haven't removed the hydroxyl groups that contaminate the aluminum. Although the article says they have ideas on that. This is actually quite interesting. If they get the contamination problem fixed, you could build a near-zero energy air-conditioner. Among other cool stuff. Pun intended. Sorry. Member, The Angry Left."

rfall: "Since an air conditioner is a heat pump ...you can never build a "near zero energy air conditioner". To move heat energy "uphill", against the thermal gradient, requires energy input. And, because of the real world, it also requires more energy to move a given amount of energy uphill. "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazurus Long"

BrowniesAreGood: "You don't understand. A "heat pump" is not a chemical process. This is ENTIRELY different and the original commenter is correct (at least theoretically if not practically)."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aluminum; hydrogen; perpetualmotion; thermodynamics
Sometimes it's all too easy to find liberals embarrassing themselves, but this time it's particularly amusing. If you know anything about science, check out the thread for a good laugh at their expense.
1 posted on 01/23/2009 8:13:58 PM PST by OldGuard1
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To: OldGuard1

ah s**t, now Algore has another crusade


2 posted on 01/23/2009 8:18:05 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: OldGuard1

These guys must have slept through their high school chemistry classes.It probably costs more in energy to make the aluminum than the hydrogen would provide.


3 posted on 01/23/2009 8:20:10 PM PST by jmcenanly
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To: Doogle

Prepare for the conspiracy theories about how the evil oil companies are suppressing the water/aluminum car.


4 posted on 01/23/2009 8:21:04 PM PST by OldGuard1
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To: OldGuard1

didn’t go to the thread but if scientists can efficiently break the covalent bond of hydrogen to oxygen in water, then good on them. This will speed the hydrogen fuel process.


5 posted on 01/23/2009 8:21:12 PM PST by BipolarBob (Even the earth is bipolar.)
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To: OldGuard1

yeah this could be fun


6 posted on 01/23/2009 8:24:02 PM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: OldGuard1

I can do better than that!

Take some water. Mix in about a teaspoon of sodium hydroxide.

Chuck in the aluminum foil, it will bubble like crazy, and give off hydrogen.

Until the aluminum is consumed and you’re left with this toxic sludge type stuff that I would recommend you bury deep, deep in the ground.

As a matter of fact, I was doing better than that when I was in eighth grade or so...


7 posted on 01/23/2009 8:29:08 PM PST by djf
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To: jmcenanly
"It probably costs more in energy to make the aluminum than the hydrogen would provide."

Of course. However, there have been proposals to use aluminum as a storage medium for energy. As a fuel, it is light weight and safe to store. It is nearly as good as gasoline. There is an abundant supply of bauxite and all you do is add energy. It is, however, much more expensive.

8 posted on 01/23/2009 8:33:33 PM PST by norwaypinesavage (Global Warming Theory is extremely robust with respect to data. All observations confirm it)
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To: OldGuard1

Let’s not forget the energy required to extract the aluminum from the ore.
It’s electric and considerable.


9 posted on 01/23/2009 8:39:26 PM PST by Vinnie (You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Jihads You)
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To: norwaypinesavage

Anything involving hydrogen is really wasteful. This probably even moreso. Plus, fuel cells cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for one big enough to run a car.


10 posted on 01/23/2009 8:39:52 PM PST by OldGuard1
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To: OldGuard1

We all know if it wasn’t for the evil oil companies we’d all be sipping our double frapachimochas while driving electric cars that charged themselves via solar panels produced from fully biodegradable materials. Those bastards.


11 posted on 01/23/2009 8:42:32 PM PST by eclecticEel (The liberal's sense of compassion begins and ends with their own person.)
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To: jmcenanly

Creating aluminum requires huge amounts of cheap electricity. That’s why Alcoa and Boeing moved to Washington, to take advantage of the cheap hydro-electric supply there. If this uses up any aluminum, it’s probably not cost efficient.


12 posted on 01/23/2009 8:58:38 PM PST by VanShuyten ("Ah! but it was something to have at least a choice of nightmares.")
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To: djf

This is not a catalyst.

Aluminum is very reactive if you powder it and don’t let the surface oxidize. When dumped into water it steals the oxygen off the water molecules and discards the hydrogen (and there are other ways to achieve the reaction).

A guy made patented a device that let an engine run on aluminum and water back in ‘82.

http://members.tripod.com/~anon99/water_engine/index2.html

This is interesting, but the energy put into making the aluminum is more than you get running the engine.


13 posted on 01/23/2009 9:02:23 PM PST by HangThemHigh (Entropy's not what it used to be.)
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To: OldGuard1

Paging the Not This *#@! Again, guy. You are needed.


14 posted on 01/23/2009 9:23:36 PM PST by WildcatClan (Obama is to the Presidency as Basquiat is to art.)
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To: OldGuard1

I can make hydrogen from water by dropping a stick of metallic sodium or potassium into it. The potassium is especially exciting when wet.


15 posted on 01/23/2009 9:30:34 PM PST by IndispensableDestiny
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To: OldGuard1

Now thats quite a Catalyst if it works


16 posted on 01/23/2009 9:33:52 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: OldGuard1
I am working on a car that run on Alka-Seltzer and water. I thought I had something with pop rocks but there were unforeseen issues.
17 posted on 01/23/2009 9:42:01 PM PST by ThomasThomas ( Never mind.........it may go both ways...)
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To: OldGuard1

18 posted on 01/23/2009 9:46:33 PM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: eclecticEel
"We all know if it wasn’t for the evil oil companies "

Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves here?

I am still trying to get my hands on that 150MPG carburetor that evil oil companies are hiding from us.

19 posted on 01/23/2009 9:50:59 PM PST by FunkyZero ("It's not about duck hunting !")
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To: jmcenanly
It probably costs more in energy to make the aluminum than the hydrogen would provide.

Much like the "benefits " of ethanol.

20 posted on 01/23/2009 9:58:49 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government)
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To: OldGuard1
Here is a simple method of sanity checking this proposal. When you burn hydrogen in oxygen you get plenty of heat (really a lot, that's why Shuttle uses this combination.)

To reverse this process and free hydrogen (and oxygen to that matter) you need to spend a comparable amount of energy. This hydrogen from water will cost you.

21 posted on 01/23/2009 11:06:55 PM PST by Greysard
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To: MrEdd

Creative and funny but when you add in the costs of Friskies, flea collars, kitty litter and first aid it’s still a negative producer.

I was thinking of something far more radical. If we could harness the energy expended by gerbils trying to escape the confines of deranged humans on the Left Coast...

Seriously though - we’re still stuck in Einstein’s idea of the universe’s laws and no one has gotten out of that. Many have postulated alternate theories and near-ironclad mathematical proof that other means exist. The problem lies in our limited ability to surpass our perception. Our math is exceeding our ability to prove truth because we’re trapped in the limits of where we are (linear time, three dimensions, one vote unless you’re a dead Democrat).

I bet some other “higher” culture is seeing this and loading what serves as their shorts.


22 posted on 01/23/2009 11:28:29 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus
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To: OldGuard1
Anything involving hydrogen is really wasteful. This probably even moreso. Plus, fuel cells cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for one big enough to run a car.

Not so, really. It makes an excellent motor fuel, with three and a half times the explosive capacity than gasoline, which is a hydro-carbon, after all... really a method for delivering Hydrogen stored in a carbon bond for storage at ambient temperature. In 1980, my friends and I were experimenting with metal hydrides, like Nickle, and came to the conclusion that it made an excellent way to store energy using non-peak grid resources.

The greenies love it for the same reasons I liked the clean air aspect, in a way, back before it became a fashion statement. It's exhaust is steam, which is ironic. The Global Warming minority is so worried about Carbon Dioxide as a Greenhouse Gas when water vapor is, by far, the most influential of the greenhouse "gases."

Makes a lot more sense than the ice-slinging, bird-killing windmills city folks want to deploy anywhere in rural areas where people like their peace and quiet.

23 posted on 01/23/2009 11:52:46 PM PST by Prospero (non est ad astra mollis e terris via)
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To: FunkyZero

They sold it to Honda - and Honda is selling it back to us in 10 mpg increments....


24 posted on 01/24/2009 12:09:51 AM PST by ASOC (This space could be employed, if I could only get a bailout...)
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To: jmcenanly
It probably costs more in energy to make the aluminum than the hydrogen would provide.

No probably about it. It has to.

But that doesn't mean the technology might not be useful as a storage mechanism. Like a pretty high energy density battery.

You still have find some way to provide the energy to "charge" the battery." But that could be a form that would be very difficult and/or inefficient if done on a such a small scale as an individual car. Nuclear, coal, maybe natural gas (although that could be used directly, effeciency might be better with this process as an intermedicate storage technique

25 posted on 01/24/2009 12:20:39 AM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: OldGuard1

Matter begets energy begets matter, etc. as far as we can perceive.

Without perfection there’s always bleed-off during each transition of energy or matter. That’s the atomic level we’re able to know.

Subatomics is where positive and negative mass particles collide, merge and bounce in odd configurations. Hawking postulated that singularities (black holes) are conduits where the negative mass particles are converged and projected to creation of new matter/existence. We need to explore these ideas and we have the means to create tools for that. Our United States took a lead in the 1980s with the Super Collider project, carving out a nine mile trench in Texas where miracles were possible.

Unfortunately political squabbling over kickback revenues killed it, leaving humanity dependent on the third-size Fermi laboratory in Europe - where the US is not on the hot list when profound discoveries are made.

If Islamic millionaires beloved of Jihadists can access this information (we’re talking basic forces of nature) and we can not, why does that trench in Texas remain empty?

Doesn’t that beat the trillions of dollars propping up bad management with no value in sight?


26 posted on 01/24/2009 1:13:22 AM PST by NewRomeTacitus
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To: NewRomeTacitus

All we really need to do is commercialize the flux capacitor.


27 posted on 01/24/2009 5:25:37 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: BipolarBob
"...if scientists can efficiently break the covalent bond of hydrogen to oxygen in water..."

Big if.

28 posted on 01/24/2009 5:52:25 AM PST by TheOldLady
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To: Prospero
Not so, really. It makes an excellent motor fuel, with three and a half times the explosive capacity than gasoline,

Just as soon as we can mine it from say, Jupiter. There's no source of hydrogen you can just pump out of the ground, like oh I don't know, oil. Other wise you have to go about breaking those pesky bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen or carbon and that takes LOTS of energy.
29 posted on 01/24/2009 5:59:06 AM PST by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Requiescat In Pace)
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To: Prospero

(insert “Aw Jeez, Not this crap again pic). Yes hydrogen is the most plentiful element in the universe. It just doesn’t happen to be in plentiful supply here on earth in a pure usable form.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1781558/posts


30 posted on 01/24/2009 7:14:13 AM PST by BipolarBob (Even the earth is bipolar.)
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To: BipolarBob
With all due respect, hydrogen is not the most plentiful element in the universe. Stupidity is the most plentiful element in the universe, and is present here on earth in geometrically expanding quantities -- in inverse proportion to intelligence, common sense, and good taste.
31 posted on 01/24/2009 7:45:43 AM PST by Tenniel2 ("When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one" -- Edmund Burke)
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To: Tenniel2
After reading your reply, I must agree.
32 posted on 01/24/2009 9:48:49 AM PST by BipolarBob (Even the earth is bipolar.)
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To: Prospero
Hydrogen stored in a carbon bond for storage at ambient temperature. In 1980, my friends and I were experimenting with metal hydrides, like Nickle, and came to the conclusion that it made an excellent way to store energy using non-peak grid resources.

That makes more sense. Separating hydrogen from carbon should be a substantially different proposition, energy-wise, than separating hydrogen from oxygen.

It costs you some energy to get the carbon separated from the hydrogen, but you get a lot more back when you combine the hydrogen with oxygen in the combustion chamber.

If you're storing hydrogen bound to oxygen, then breaking that bond to get free hydrogen is costing you at least as much energy as you're going to get back in the combustion chamber, and that's assuming a 100% efficient method of breaking that bond.

33 posted on 01/24/2009 10:04:45 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: starlifter

Flux capacitor...good one.

The more I read about science and the hierarchy dominating it the more I’m convinced that great insights are quashed and dismissed almost daily. If the scientific community weren’t dominated by selfish and foolish interests we wouldn’t have ridiculous “wind farms” pretending to supplant real sources of power at taxpayer expense (seems climbing up the towers and oiling the gears is one of those jobs Americans aren’t willing to do).

Americans scamming the government’s push for Wind Farms.

Very sad that the scientific community feels compelled to lick their collective finger and hold it up to see which way the political wind is blowing. Then again I can’t recall, historically, when scientists EVER had an upper hand that they fully realized.


34 posted on 01/25/2009 8:36:12 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus
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