Winning coach in 100-0 victory fired

Yahoo/CBS11 ^ | 1-26-09

[xzins]

You can win honorably without deliberately humiliating an undermatched opponent.

I agree with PM. There is no good reason once the score got to 20-0 to ignore that something was terribly wrong. Once it got to 25-0, it should have been obvious that the other team simply should not have been on that basketball court.

At that point, the proper thing to do would have been to time out for a conference with the referees and the opposing coach. This is one reason why automatic game-ending "run rules" are important. If this conference had had such a rule, the game would have ended. Basketball being significantly different than baseball, it would have to be anywhere from 25-40 points depending on the age-level playing.

On that note, though, the opposing school and coach also bear some responsibility in this, too. I cannot imagine that the defeated school is competitive in any real league. I wonder if these two schools were in the same league. I kind of doubt it. I imagine the defeated school was "playing up" to gain experience.

We all know that GENERALLY taking a small Div4 school that boasts 40-80 boys against a DivI school boasting 1000+ boys is an automatic disaster in the making. That's why they almost always never schedule one another. If I'm a Div4 coach and I insist on "testing" my team against a powerhouse, then part of the blame rests on me when the mismatch is huge.

Another note: once you've got your 4th string in, and you're still killing them, is it good for a team to tell them to go on court and try not to score?

In short, referees should have the authority to end an out-of-hand game whether for behavior OR for obvious mismatch.

I hope the coach wasn't fired as a teacher, but only as a coach.

[Talisker]

Well said.

All this coach had to do after he knocked off 25 points in the first three minutes was forbid any more layups (from which one girl alone made 48 out of the 100 points). If that wasn’t enough, he could have had his girls include difficulty drills which would increase their overall skills, like passing three times before shooting, or only shooting from outside of the key, etc. You’ll notice that when he finally made his 100 points, he had no problem not scoring even one more point for the last four minutes of the game. This is High School, not the Pros! He didn’t go to win, he went for blood and got it, and he still won’t apologize or even admit he did any wrong. This “winning” coach is one of the biggest jackasses I’ve ever heard of in sports - or for that matter, anywhere.

[Talisker]

“I hope the coach wasn’t fired as a teacher, but only as a coach.”

I have to disagree, xzins. I think it is precisely that he failed as a teacher - a High School teacher. As purely a coach with purely the job of winning the game and nothing more, he did great. Teaching however, involves ethical considerations that go far beyond winning the game. And that’s where this guy not only failed, but showed he never crawled out of the swamp himself.

[xzins]

No, I don’t think a single mistake should cost a man his livelihood. He’ll probably lose a bit of a cash contract when he loses the coaching position, but this incident has nothing to do with his knowledge of history/math/science or whatever it is he teaches.

It is not a legal/ethical issue (theft, sex with students, etc.) It is confined to a lesson about when to be merciful, and therefore, there are no legal aspects involved.

[P-Marlowe]

No, I don’t think a single mistake should cost a man his livelihood.

The reason he was fired was because the school was embarrassed by the humiliation of the other school and issued a public apology and even offered to forfeit the game and the coach went public with a statement that there was nothing to apologize for. IOW he made two very huge errors in judgment.

FWIW, He was NOT a teacher, he was only a coach. I'm not even sure it was a paid position.

[xzins]

My post suggested that he be fired only as a coach and not as a teacher. If he was not a teacher, then I have no reservation about firing him as a coach.

At the same time, I do believe the other team and coach bears some responsibility for knowingly putting such a poorly mismatched team on the floor.

While the score never should have been run up, the other coach had to already have known how poorly his team compared.

There should be a mercy rule, and referees should be the ones to make that call.

[enat]

This is taken from Covenant's Profile and Statement of Beliefs:

“The founding families of Covenant desired a school and an education that:

Honored God through humility, sacrifice, and service”

“We believe that all believers are under mandate of Jesus Christ to proclaim the Gospel to all the world.”

The scriptures over and over again speak in terms of proportionality and mercy in dealing with the opposition except when directly ordered by God to annihilate the enemy.

It is a Christian “Classical” school and takes the best of the best, highly motivated students. It has over 400 students. Its curriculum is:

“Covenant was founded on the belief that educational methodology must be time-tested, agreeable to the student, and effective in producing critical thinking skills. For these and many other reasons, Covenant has adopted the “classical” method of education.

The classical method is centered in the rich cultural heritage of Western civilization and provides a rich and rigorous training. Developed in the Middle Ages and used almost exclusively in the Western world, the classical tradition has proven its effectiveness through the leaders who shaped our culture from the 10th to the 19th centuries.

The classical method consists of three stages known collectively as the Trivium. The first stage, grammar, provides the foundation of knowledge upon which the other two stages build. This knowledge consists of the basic facts of any particular subject. The second stage, dialectic, provides training in logic as a means to identify the relationships between the facts. The third stage, rhetoric, teaches students how to clearly express their thoughts and ideas.

A consistent and thoughtful implementation of the Trivium over the course of twelve years of schooling enables students to develop the skills and habits necessary for them to learn independently, think critically, analyze logically, and express clearly.”

The coach was insubordinate and encouraged the students to be insubordinate by permitting them to post statements along with his. He was properly terminated for grossly violating the purpose and beliefs of the school.

[xzins]

I have already agreed that the coach should lose his job as a coach.

However, I’ve also pointed out that the other school bears some responsibility as do the referees/league/system.

If there is no mercy rule, there should be.

Also, I cannot believe the other coach did not know he was in charge of a terrible team in terms of the match-up that day.

No one has commented on the losing coach and the system. They all want to keep repeating that the winning coach should have been fired. OK. I agree he should lose his coaching position.

[Captain Peter Blood]

What does God and Christ have to do with a basketball Game?
Answer Nothing.
This whole thing has been blown out of proportion.
The one thing I have not seen is questions about the team that lost. They obviously were poorly coached and not prepared to play and haven’t won any games in 4 years.
What is wrong with that picture?
It’s a game and both teams had barely more than 8 players each. These things happen.
By the way did you bother to read the Coach’s e-mail on this?
He states that in his first season as coach they lost a game
82-2, same situation, they didn’t whine or cry they just got better.
So please find something else to worry about.

[P-Marlowe]

Also, I cannot believe the other coach did not know he was in charge of a terrible team in terms of the match-up that day.

Oh, he knew. That team was quite used to losing. As far as I can tell the other team has NEVER won a game. They had virtually no chance of winning this game from the outset and the Covenant coach knew it.

Rather than telling his players to show mercy and not humiliate this undermatched team, the Covenant coach presided over a wholesale slaughter of a team which exists for no other apparent reason than to teach their undermatched players to lose with dignity. They did. It is too bad that the Covenant players never realized that they had an opportunity to win with dignity and mercy and instead chose the moment to run up a school record for scoring.

[P-Marlowe]

What does God and Christ have to do with a basketball Game? Answer Nothing.

Spoken like a true atheist.

[Captain Peter Blood]

In point of fact I am not an atheist.
You though seem to be one that wants to inject religion into a basketball game or athletics as a whole when the whole point is competition and the lessons learned there.
Now it is sad that the girls team lost 100-0 and never scored any points. But then who's fault was it they were poorly prepared to play, the Coach or God?
Try to look at this with a little logic and leave your religious views at home.

[xzins]

P-M, do you have any idea how bad you have to be not to score a single point in an entire high school basketball game of 4 quarters?

There is something else terribly wrong there, and it makes this ENTIRE scenario stink.

I agree that the winning coach was way out of line.

ZERO points??? There’s something part of the story missing here, and there’s some culpability on the part of losing coach and school that’s not also on display.

[xzins]

What does God and Christ have to do with a basketball Game? Answer Nothing.....leave your religious views at home...

If you engage the religious question by responding with "answer nothing" then it is entirely correct for another person to engage you back.

As a point of theology, God might have more to do with even the tiniest events of life far more than we realize.

[P-Marlowe]

Try to look at this with a little logic and leave your religious views at home.

Sorry, can't be done. My religious views color everything I do. Yours do to. Unfortunately you fail to see that there is a religious lesson to be learned when you are faced with an opponent who is clearly undermatched.

As I stated earlier on this thread, when I was in Junior High School, I was soundly defeating an undermatched opponent and my coach caught me acting in a manner which was not consistent with good sportsmanship. In essence I had a cocky attitude which was apparent both to my opponent and to my coach. He immediately pulled me off the court and forfeited the match. He taught me a very important lesson that day. He was a great coach.

[P-Marlowe]

P-M, do you have any idea how bad you have to be not to score a single point in an entire high school basketball game of 4 quarters?

There are two 20 minute halves in Girls basketball. The clock does not stop except for time-outs until the 2 minute mark.

Do you have any idea how hard you have to try to score 100 points even without an opponent in 40 minutes?

ZERO points??? There’s something part of the story missing here, and there’s some culpability on the part of losing coach and school that’s not also on display.

IIRC, the losing team has about 25 students in the school (I think they have about 1/3 of their student body on this team) and they all have learning disabilities. Their team is obviously not on the court to win, they are on the court to try their best. When an vastly superior team is running a full court press and stealing the ball at every opportunity and blocking shots at every opportunity, then scoring ZERO points is pretty understandable.

[enat]

“However, I’ve also pointed out that the other school bears some responsibility as do the referees/league/system.”

I don't see it that way. The mission statements, purposes and the students of the schools are completely different.

“Our Mission: Dallas Academy restores the promise of full academic enrichment to students with learning differences. Our staff establishes a meaningful connection with each student to overcome barriers to success.

We believe that structure and a caring, experienced staff are the main factors for success at the Academy. The classes provide a quiet, nurturing environment to students who in the past have had trouble with concentration and short attention spans. Many of these boys and girls are very frustrated and have not been successful in previous school settings.”

“Covenant was founded on the belief that educational methodology must be time-tested, agreeable to the student, and effective in producing critical thinking skills. For these and many other reasons, Covenant has adopted the “classical” method of education.

The classical method is centered in the rich cultural heritage of Western civilization and provides a rich and rigorous training. Developed in the Middle Ages and used almost exclusively in the Western world, the classical tradition has proven its effectiveness through the leaders who shaped our culture from the 10th to the 19th centuries.

The classical method consists of three stages known collectively as the Trivium. The first stage, grammar, provides the foundation of knowledge upon which the other two stages build. This knowledge consists of the basic facts of any particular subject. The second stage, dialectic, provides training in logic as a means to identify the relationships between the facts. The third stage, rhetoric, teaches students how to clearly express their thoughts and ideas.

A consistent and thoughtful implementation of the Trivium over the course of twelve years of schooling enables students to develop the skills and habits necessary for them to learn independently, think critically, analyze logically, and express clearly.”

Covenant is held to a much higher standard since its stated purpose is to glorify and honor God through humility, sacrifice, and service in all that it does. To state it teaches “critical thinking” (learn independently, think critically, analyze logically, and express clearly) to a select student body and then confronted by a real life situation their being swept along with triumphal mob emotions at the expense of an over matched educationally challenged team is an embarrassment to its stated purpose and God. It is like the car with a “Jesus fish” decal on the back whose driver gives the finger to someone who cuts him/her off.

[Captain Peter Blood]

Pal there are no religious lessons to be learned in playing sports. There are life lessons possibly but not religious ones.
Now Coach Vince Lombardi was a very religious man but his credo was “Winning” and he did not tolerate losing.
Now if your religious views color everything you do that is your choice but that means you have trouble pulling back and looking at things in logical frame of mind at times.
Well you and I will just to agree to disagree on this basketball game.
I am a little more worried about the Economic Collapse of the country and the Big Picture than a girls basketball game of lopsided proportions.
Also because of all of this blown out of proportion publicity we have a coach fired, one school now giving up playing altogether and those poor girls feeling and being humiliated, both sides, because we have made this little deal into a big deal with National Publicity bringing on scorn and ridicule.
Now just how does God and Jesus feel about that and the rank Hypocrisy that all this has brought about???????

[P-Marlowe]

Pal there are no religious lessons to be learned in playing sports.

Obviously you've never read The Epistle to the Collosians.

I am a little more worried about the Economic Collapse of the country and the Big Picture than a girls basketball game of lopsided proportions.

For what it is worth, the economic collapse of the country is tied directly to the lesson to be learned from this fiasco. Corporate greed and the "win at all costs" attitude that has permeated the corporate world over the last 50 years has resulted in the collapse of our economy. Big companies were busy using leveraged money to finance takeovers of smaller companies and driving their competition into the ground and now they are "too big to fail" and without bailouts, all of us are going to lose.

Covenant had that same attitude. They were not merely satisfied with winning, but they had to dominate, they had to humilate their opponent and literally crush their spirits. Ultimately their own greed was their downfall. Winning is not the "only thing". Fighting the "good fight" is the most important lesson in sports and in business.

Read Collosians.

[Polybius]

In fencing, like in tennis, the winner of the bout is determined by a certain number of points without a time limit. You are wrong. Fencing also has a time limit. Fencing isn't about running up the score. It is about hitting and not getting hit. The bout is over when a fencer reaches 15. But a clock is running. If a fencer is ahead when time runs out, he wins.

O.K. Excuse me for getting the hypothetical of your son's fencing example wrong. Let me rephrase it.

Let's see ...... There is a time limit in fencing and also a scoring limit in fencing. ...... Hmmmmm ..... So, what would that very good fencer do to totally humiliate your son as this Coach humiliated the other team? What could he do to play with your son like a cat plays with a mouse to show everybody in the crowd what an athletic god he is and how your son's fencing skills were nothing but dog scat ...... Hmmmmm. .... Got it!

The fencer would have made it a point to reach 15 points AS FAST AS HE POSSIBLY COULD. Within 3 seconds of the start of the action after each point scored, he would have scored against your son. Since the rules made it impossible to run up the points, he would have strived to ensure that he was known as the fencer who totally destroyed and humiliated your son by going from, zero points to 15 points in 45 seconds worth of fencing action.

Now is the humiliation analogy correct in regards to fencing rules?

My point deals with DELIBERATELY HUMILIATION of your opponent.

Giving away points is merely one way to DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE your opponent.

The "Gator flop" occurred during a 1971 NCAA football game between the Florida Gators and Miami Hurricanes

Unecessairly running up the score is another way to DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE your opponent.

I understand not acting like an arrogant winner. In fencing you are disqualified very easily for ungentlemanly conduct. But, “low class” in sports (in my opinion) includes expecting your opponent to hold back or let you get something which is not rightly earned.

You again confuse "holding back" (pushing your car through the school zone) with "piling it on" (blasting through the school zone with the pedal to the metal at 89 MPH).

There are many ways to DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE your opponent.

HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE ONE: Letting yourself be touched deliberately in fencing is a humiliating insult because your are, in effect, telling the crowd and the opponent that you considered your opponent is so hopelessly pathetic that deliberately giving away points is the only way that that piece of dog scat will ever score.

HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE TWO: Scoring all 15 points in fencing in 45 seconds of action because you are pushing yourself to set a time record is a humiliating insult because your are telling and showing the crowd and the opponent that your opponent is so hopelessly pathetic that you can dispatch of that piece of dog scat as if he were a card board cut-out.

HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE THREE: Running up the score in a timed sport without a scoring limit is a humiliating insult because your are telling and showing the crowd and the opponent that your opponent is so hopelessly pathetic that you can score on him again, and again and again and again as if he were a card board cut-out. "You see how I can score against this pathetic loser? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again? Wanna see it again?"

Or would you hold back on your “win” just to let the opponent “feel good”?

Refraining from DELIBERATELY HUMILIATING your opponent is called "Sportsmanship".

You are still pissed that your son was humiliated with unsportsmanlike conduct by "HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE ONE" but, yet, you champion the humilation of those girls by "HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE THREE.

As most know, it is based on the real activity of sword fighting. Would you ever let someone have a “free” touch on you if they were holding a real blade? Or would you hold back on your “win” just to let the opponent “feel good”? If you did either of these two things, you just might be killed.

"Real blades"? "Killed"?

On a thread about running up the score in a girl's high school basketball game, you are talking about getting "killed" with "real blades"?

Ummmm ..... Let's get back to the Planet Earth. This thread is about high school sport, not war or getting attacked by Jack the Ripper. Nobody is going to "die" because they practiced good sportsmanship at a high school athletic event.

I know basketball isn't fencing, but someone will win, and someone will lose. There are no charity points.

Once again, right back to "HOW TO DELIBERATELY HUMILIATE YOUR OPPONENT - EXAMPLE ONE" while completely ignoring the rest of the book "101 Ways to Humiliate Your Opponent in Sports".

"Charity points" and "In you face points" are merely two sides of the "How to Deliberately Humiliate Your Opponent" Coin.