Posted on 01/26/2009 2:12:13 PM PST by Navy Patriot
BART officials said Saturday that they will investigate the actions of one of the transit agency's police officers after a video surfaced showing the officer striking a passenger - apparently Oscar Grant - minutes before the unarmed young man was fatally shot by another officer early on New Year's Day.
The cell phone video, one of a handful that have surfaced, aired Friday night on KTVU-TV. It shows a male BART police officer walking over to three men lined up against a wall near a female officer, and then striking one in the face.
The victim of the punch - identified by Channel 2 as 22-year-old Grant - slides to the ground. The video then shows the moments preceding the shooting, then the shooting itself. It appears that the officer who punches the man is the same person who later is seen kneeling on Grant's head when he was shot.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Interestingly all these videos went to the media first rather than to police or prosecutors.
Big money for the trial lawyers here.
Still very little info on how bad an actor Oscar Grant was (if at all), both before and during incident.
I really wish we had more info out there. This whole thing doesn’t make sense (unless the Bart officers really are just a totally out of control group who kill at will—and I can’t buy that yet).
“Interestingly all these videos went to the media first rather than to police or prosecutors.”
Why would they trust the police or prosecutors? If it was my video I might or might not go to my lawyer. That probably didn’t even occur to these people plus they probably couldn’t afford a lawyer.
In the long run, this is good. The people are being captured on video everywhere. If law enforcement is as well, it will level the playing field.
It is good that cops understand that whatever they are doing, it could be caught on video and used against them later.
Just like the rest of us.
The BART cops are an out of control bunch of bullies. There needs to be a thorough house cleaning starting with the upper BART management. On top of the abuses seen in the video’s the BART cops illegally confiscated any cameras or phones they say in the vicinity of the crime.
“Still very little info on how bad an actor Oscar Grant was (if at all), both before and during incident.”
I’ve a hunch he couldn’t have been THAT good an actor if the police had him face down on the platform. Not that I think it excuses the police’s actions in this case.
These videos often put the screws to the liars.
This particular incident looks real bad for the cops.
I don’t care how bad of an actor he was. Unless he killed someone else, he didn’t deserve to be killed, and unless he was an immediate danger to the police, he shouldn’t have been shot like that.
Making no judgments here ... but what led to these guys being lined up in the first place? Were they selected at random, or were they misbehaving?
This was obviously an AD as no officer is going to purposely shoot a suspect in front of dozens of witnesses and with another officer that close to the muzzle of his weapon.
Oscar and friends went out looking for trouble that night and they found it.
By “interestingly” I was referring to the tendency of ordinary people to become cunning.
I see.
Hard to trust jackbooted thugs sometimes.
No such thing as an "accidental" discharge ...
It's a NEGLIGENT Discharge (at best) ... and that negligence (at best) killed somebody.
The Jury will have to decide, but it has just gotten much harder to sell it to 'em.
We used to think that no officer of our government would shoot law-abiding citizens in the back or burn their homes down around them, but we learned otherwise....
Please recite it.
True. See Duke Lacrosse Frame.
Generally, and in this case, I agree with that principle.
I don’t care how bad of an actor he was.
To an extent this is not as easily dismissible. A known bad actor has the possibility of being personally known to, and identifiable by one or more individual cops on the scene. This can legitimately go to probable cause for more scrutiny. It's a fact of life, but as I said, I don't have the information here.
There was one or more telephone reports of a fight on a BART train, no BART police witnessed the "fight". The train was stopped at the Fruitvale station and held long enough for the next train to arrive and be blocked by the first train. After this, things get sketchy.
There is no information on how BART police identified the men they removed from the first train, or probable cause. Very difficult situation.
Me too.
The guy was on the ground and restrained. Video pretty clearly shows the cop stood up, drew his weapon, aimed, and pulled the trigger.
Hard to see how that is an AD.
Your innocence is charming, and I mean that in a good way.
BART cops are no worse than any other cops that have ever existed -- they consider themselves a breed apart, above the law. That's why they call us "civilians", even though they're just as "civilian" as anybody else. They're the Blue Army -- and sometimes the Blue Army kills people.
That's why is best to have as little to do with the police as possible -- because they ARE the law -- at least when no smartasses with cell phone cameras are around -- and with that kind of power even a "good cop" can go bad at any minute and with no warning. Next time it may be you or me on the receiving end of What are you gonna do -- call the cops ?
I think policing should be done by unarmed neighborhood watch groups backed up by professional paramilitary police like the Gendarmerie in France or the Carabinieri in Italy. Police should be under military discipline and subject to the UCMJ. When was the last time a GI shot an unarmed kid here in America -- 1970?
You are implying the beaten upon should turn the evidence over to the mob that's administering the beating. Unbelievable. What kind of idiot are you?
While I agree that being a known “bad actor” could explain the police treating this particular person more harshly than might appear warranted, I don’t think that could ever justify shooting him while he’s down and doesn’t justify smacking him around while he’s not immediately threatening them. I have a lot of respect for the job police officers do and the stress they go through and understand that hindsight it 20/20 but given the power that we give police officers, we also have an interest in making sure that the people who don’t have the temperment for it aren’t given that power and to make sure that those who go way too far don’t literally get away with murder.
It seems pretty obvious from the shooter’s reaction that he’s as surprised as anyone. I really believe that he thought he was pulling his taser. I don’t know what you call that: involuntary manslaughter?
1st degree murder facing lethal injection.
However, it seems pretty obvious that he unlawfully killed another person who was not an imminent threat to anyone.
Perhaps he did think he was pulling his taser. I know some are offering that opinion. I have difficulty with it since a taser is quite a bit different from a pistol:
TASER pic: http://defensereview.com/1_31_2004/Taser%20X26_1.jpg
Glock pic (I assume it was a Glock, but even if not I think the point remains):http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/glock17_3.jpg
Hard to say what was going through the cop's mind, although I have my own theory. No doubt he is deeply remorseful. Hopefully he would be remorseful even if the incident was not recorded.
Has anybody seen this new video? The video at the link doesn’t seem to be it.
Subject was already down on the ground, and in restraints. No need to even be pulling a taser here. Not involuntary manslaughter, at all. Murder, 2d degree depraved indifference to human life...
the infowarrior
I agree, and you will note that I recited specific facts must be present to allow "probable cause for more scrutiny".
Those being: a cop on the scene must:
1 Personally know the suspect AND be able to identify him.
2 The cop must also personally know of a felony or related misdemeanor CONVICTION of the suspect.
Also, "scrutiny" means investigation, not beating or shooting.
The Chron won't link to Fox.
“Interestingly all these videos went to the media first rather than to police or prosecutors.”
According to an earlier thread
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2171950/posts
the police confiscated as many cell phones as they could, which is, per the thread, an illegal warrantless search and seizure. That IMO implies there is something they don’t want the rest of us to see, which therefore ironically supports one’s decision to take the video to the media.
I’m glad you find it charming. I admit my experience with the law has been little and mostly positive (ok, 2 speeding tickets in 35 years). Still even if they are overbearing bad kinda guys (and I know you didn’t mean they all were, but lets just assume) why would they be so careless to whack someone in full view of witnesses (and their cameras)? That’s why I am leaning toward it being some sort of horrible accident. I don’t mean by that that the cop who did it should just be given a slap on the wrist. When you assume a position of such authority over others you really have to be held to a higher standard. But it will take a little more info before I believe he just randomly murdered that kid just because.
But, I’m open for more info. And if he did indeed murder that guy, hang ‘em high.
OK... that’s the one I was looking for.
I can’t say it convinces me of anything one way or another. Guy#1 (the guy who got punched) was standing up... and turned and moved to his left to come up behind another cop dealing with somebody else. Then this cop (the punching one) left his guy#2 on the ground he was dealing with, came over and grabbed guy#1 pulling him back from the others and back up where he was with his back to the wall. There’s some scuffling that is admittedly a little fuzzy. I can’t tell what the guy#1 was doing with his hands, but he was grabbing either at the cop or his equipment. The the cop punches him pretty hard to the face, then steps back... the guy settles down to a sitting position.
Sure, maybe the cop was out of hand. But I’m not sure that this video says that. The important part is what you can’t see. You can’t really see what the guy was doing with his hands. Seems like that makes a difference.
I’m in pretty much that same space. The first video of the cop shooting the guy looks pretty bad. Sure, the guy was fighting while being put in restraints but he did seem to be mostly under the control of the other cops that were all over him.
And it does look to me like the most astonished person of all after the shot was the cop that fired his weapon. It looks like a dreadful yet accidental shooting, not an intentional execution.
But I’m willing to believe either, depending on where the evidence leads.
I wonder what would have happened to the evidence at the police station?
Police are not supposed to hit people lined up against a wall offering no resistance...get rid of the rotten apples before they destroy law enforcement’s reputation.
It was about two in the morning on New Years Day...there was some reports of fighting between passengers on the train...nothing to warrant what the officer did.
Wasn’t it the same cop who hit him that killed him...sounds like an execution to me.
I suspect that a lot of BART passengers with cellphones had that same thought.
No, different cop.
Even so, it's not helpful to the "oops, it was an accident" defense.
I can’y imagine why anyone would whack someone at all, except in self defense or to stop them from assulting some other innocent person. As to why these cops would “whack someone in full view of witnesses”, I would guess that they did it in a fit of rage.
I’ll explain. In my personal experience, police officers tend to be insecure, aggressive, and often sadistic men with serious anger control issues. Imagine your average high school bully, only with a badge, a gun, and a license to kill. As do most people of this sort, they tend to be attracted to gang activity, and, since the Blue Gang is always the top gang in town, many are attracted to police work. It’s a chance to shake down the nerds for their lunch money, only with the full force of the law behind you. Now, most cops are able to keep the rage in check so long as the little people display the appropriate level of fear and deference, and thus go through their careers without being caught abusing a “civilian”. (Note that I said “being caught”.) But should a “civilian” fail to cringe at their presence, or God forbid show them any “attitude”, and the school bully rage switch goes to a hair-trigger state. At that point, one false move by the “perp”, and POW — blood on the platform in Fruitvale — or in your neighborhood.
This is why I advise people to have as little to do with cops as possible. To a cop, you and I are little people, punks with attitude, “civilians”. Nothing good ever comes of a visit by or with the police. Every badge out there is a ticking time bomb, ready to go off and ruin your life. If forced to deal with police, say nothing until your attorney is present. Do not look them in the eye. Keep your chin on your chest and your hands in plain view. These are dangerous gang members who have the legal right to kill you — and the Blue Wall of Silence to protect them from the consequences.
Note: all of the above is based upon my personal experience with police officers over the years. I’m sure there must be one or two honest cops out there somewhere, but the vast majority are as dangerous and unpredictable as your local ghetto gangbanger. Local cops are the worst; most state police officers are more professional and less likely to be gangster types; and military police are the best. This is one reason I think that armed police officers should be under the UCMJ — the school bully types can’t take the discipline, training and accountability necessary to be a military cop.
Hope you're not one of them! (Just kidding.) When I was a teenager, I had a few run-ins with bad cops. Nothing like being grabbed from a car and being thrown against the hood, being sworn at and threatened with bodily harm, to ruin your day. Then having them ransack your car and taking your stuff. When they find no drugs, they "let" you go, sometimes at the police station after wasting your time. One of my buddies who went thru the same abuse ended up being a SF cop, and was dealing out abuse on citizens (I know because he laughed while talking about it). He described all the crap he had to put up with, as if that justified what he had done. He mellowed out later, and became a motorcycle cop. One brother-in-law of mine quit the SFPD because he didn't like seeing the abuse by others.
I worked many years as a civilian with SFPD and saw that most cops are okay, but there are a few bad ones out there. As you say, be wary and don't provoke them.
Quite true...I am appalled by this sort of thing. My kids see this and think police are ‘bad’. I tell them this is few and far between, but it’s getting harder to defend them...there have been many incidents lately.
It doesn’t help that my son was harassed by a policeman for no reason...teenager. I told him never never argue, yes sir and no sir...get arrested if this is the only way. Do not give law enforcement a hard time...you just don’t know what could happen. He told me he was afraid the cop would plant something on him, and who would believe him. He wants to go into the air force and does no drugs of any sort...he used to watch lockup...this was very effective. The search rules need to be changed so planting evidence is not possible. The poor woman in Atlanta that was killed...in her late 80’s or 90’s...they found pot...later admitted it was a plant.
It could also be just plain rage...the horror could have been when he realized what he had done...couldn’t very well shoot all the witnesses.
What happened to the confiscated cell phones...I wonder. This would be very interesting to know.
Yes, I’m anxious to see more evidence. I wonder tho, after all media attention if we will ever feel comfortable that we know what happened.
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