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Extinct Ibex Clone Dies at Birth
ICR ^ | February 14, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 02/14/2009 7:52:25 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

Extinct Ibex Clone Dies at Birth

by Brian Thomas, M.S.*

The last of a type of wild mountain goat was found dead in the mountains of northern Spain in 2000. The Pyrenean ibex, characterized by its curved horns, was officially declared extinct, but not before tissue samples were collected and preserved in liquid nitrogen.

Scientists used DNA extracted from the samples and, replacing the genetic material in eggs from domestic goats, cloned a female Pyrenean ibex—the first extinct animal to be cloned. Unfortunately, the clone died shortly after birth “due to physical defects in its lungs. Other cloned animals, including sheep, have been born with similar lung defects,” the Telegraph reported.1

Indeed, cloned animals suffer from several common deficiencies, including premature aging due to the starting DNA having shortened telomeres, lengths of DNA occurring at the ends of chromosomes.2 The frozen DNA likely had mutations also. This is because “even when preserved in ice, DNA degrades over time and this leaves gaps in the genetic information required to produce a healthy animal.”1

This form of whole-animal cloning reflects the biblically consistent biological principle of biogenesis, that life begets life. In this case, the preserved DNA was removed from a skin cell and placed into a live goat egg cell. The whole female goat, complete with her womb and an egg, was required to produce the clone. The ibex cloning would not have worked if the embryo had been placed in, for example, a female wolf’s womb. This occurred according to the Creator’s plan, where creatures reproduce after their kinds.

Another observation involves the shortening of telomeric DNA with each cell division and the accumulation of additional DNA damage as the immediate physical causes of aging, which leads to death.3 How did those processes begin? Why do living organisms undergo aging, corruption, and death—unless the Bible’s description of death’s origin is accurate?

It seems that the more complex a system is, the more that can go wrong. Bacteria are essentially self-cloning, can regenerate their telomeric DNA each generation, and are the best adapted to survive in the widest array of environments. If novel life forms arose by natural forces favoring the fittest—as evolutionary theory claims—then bacteria should have been the pinnacle of evolution. “Complex, highly evolved life, like the human, has no reason to appear. So why should these chance mutations plan such complex types of animals?”4

Finally, though DNA is damaged much more easily outside a living cell, damage also adds up over generations, even with the remarkable array of DNA damage detection, prevention, repair, and replacement mechanisms that were engineered into living cells. Not only do cells accumulate damage over time that ultimately leads to death, but 100 mutations per generation in reproductive cells eventually lead to extinction of whole kinds.5 Such accumulated DNA damage may have contributed to the demise of the Pyrenean ibex after 1981 when “just 30 remained.”1 Other species such as the Tasmanian Devil are also showing signs of collapse.6 The observations that whole kinds are nearing extinction due to genetic degradation, and many are already gone, run counter to the evolutionary concept that novel life forms emerge over time.

If whole-animal cloning is going to work, instead of producing one non-viable offspring out of 439 embryos (as this project did), it must somehow restore to an acceptable level the original genetic information by making the required individual DNA base changes. Without a wholesale restoration of uncorrupted DNA, life on earth is doomed to eventually die out.

Thankfully, God has promised to make a “new heaven, and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.”7 The God of creation will be the God of re-creation. Ultimately, He is the only One capable of performing a true resurrection.

References

  1. Gray, R. and R. Dobson. Extinct ibex is resurrected by cloning. The Telegraph. Posted on telegraph.co.uk, February 4, 2009, accessed February 6, 2009.
  2. Xu, J. and X. Yang. 2003. Will cloned animals suffer premature aging – The story at the end of clones' chromosomes. Reproductive Biology and Endocrinology. 1: 105.
  3. Murphy, M. P. and L. Partridge. 2008. Toward a Control Theory Analysis of Aging. Annual Review of Biochemistry, 77: 777-798.
  4. Chen, J.Y. Quoted in Heeren, F. J. 2003. Was the First Craniate on the Road to Cognition? A Modern Craniate’s Perspective. Evolution and Cognition. 9 (2): 142-156.
  5. Sanford, J. et al. 2008. Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory. Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference on Creationism. Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship and Dallas, TX: Institute for Creation Research, 165-175.
  6. Sherwin, F. Tasmanian Devils: Extinction, not Macroevolution. ICR News. Posted on icr.org July 22, 2008, accessed February 6, 2009.
  7. Revelation 21:1.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: agingshortened; birth; clone; cloning; createdkinds; creation; dies; dna; evolution; ibex; intelligentdesign; kinds; mutation; premature; pyrenean; telomeres
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1 posted on 02/14/2009 7:52:25 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: gondramB; editor-surveyor; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; GourmetDan; MrB; valkyry1; ...

Happy Valentine’s Day!


2 posted on 02/14/2009 7:54:23 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

.....This occurred according to the Creator’s plan, where creatures reproduce after their kinds......

Pure tripe


3 posted on 02/14/2009 7:56:42 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . The original point of America was not to be Europe)
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To: bert

On what basis do you know this?


4 posted on 02/14/2009 7:58:48 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Guess they are still missing that link... the Adam was NOT alive - living until the ‘breath of life’ (means soul) was breathed into his nostrils.

And the evols allll admit they are incapable of dealing with things not visible to the human naked eye...

5 posted on 02/14/2009 8:00:57 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: bert

What a great article, and very insightful!

Life is very indeed extremely complex. It’s hard to believe that some think that lightning struck a mud puddle millions of years ago and created the first cell.

Thanks for posting!


6 posted on 02/14/2009 8:02:19 AM PST by wgb
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To: GodGunsGuts

Human stem cell research will fix this, don’t ya’ know?


7 posted on 02/14/2009 8:08:43 AM PST by LiberConservative
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To: LiberConservative

Just ask B. Hussein Obama!


8 posted on 02/14/2009 8:11:33 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Without a wholesale restoration of uncorrupted DNA, life on earth is doomed to eventually die out.

Interesting concept.

9 posted on 02/14/2009 8:16:46 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Somebody say Ibex? Photobucket Photobucket
10 posted on 02/14/2009 8:24:59 AM PST by Dusty Road
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To: GodGunsGuts

Just practice for human cloning, we can’t wait!


11 posted on 02/14/2009 8:27:00 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Dusty Road

Not just any old ibex, the Pyrenean ibex.


12 posted on 02/14/2009 8:36:32 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Great article. More proof life and genetics were not just random events.


13 posted on 02/14/2009 8:39:09 AM PST by auntyfemenist (Obama lives in happy rainbow unicorn land.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Finally, though DNA is damaged much more easily outside a living cell, damage also adds up over generations, even with the remarkable array of DNA damage detection, prevention, repair, and replacement mechanisms that were engineered into living cells. Not only do cells accumulate damage over time that ultimately leads to death, but 100 mutations per generation in reproductive cells eventually lead to extinction of whole kinds.

Since a generation can only take minutes or hours for bacteria, shouldn't they be gone by now?

14 posted on 02/14/2009 8:47:47 AM PST by Moonman62 (I didn't compromise my soul to be popular. -- Jimmy Carter)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Happy Valentine’s Day!


15 posted on 02/14/2009 8:51:18 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts
Finally, though DNA is damaged much more easily outside a living cell, damage also adds up over generations, even with the remarkable array of DNA damage detection, prevention, repair, and replacement mechanisms that were engineered into living cells. Not only do cells accumulate damage over time that ultimately leads to death, but 100 mutations per generation in reproductive cells eventually lead to extinction of whole kinds.

Wouldn't this mean that humans today would be greatly inferior to humans from 6000 years ago, and less numerous?

16 posted on 02/14/2009 8:51:58 AM PST by Moonman62 (I didn't compromise my soul to be popular. -- Jimmy Carter)
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To: GodGunsGuts
The ibex cloning would not have worked if the embryo had been placed in, for example, a female wolf’s womb. This occurred according to the Creator’s plan, where creatures reproduce after their kinds.

One of my favorite Bible passages reads,

"Clone not your ibex in a wolf's womb".

17 posted on 02/14/2009 8:59:32 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: GodGunsGuts

God’s plan includes cloning.


18 posted on 02/14/2009 9:00:35 AM PST by nufsed
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To: GodGunsGuts

Just don’t add any frog DNA! ;-)


19 posted on 02/14/2009 9:02:19 AM PST by Twotone
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To: GodGunsGuts

Makes you wonder if what is meant to be extinct won’t stay extinct.


20 posted on 02/14/2009 9:07:39 AM PST by SlowBoat407 (Do not read this tagline.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I can has goatcheezburger?

21 posted on 02/14/2009 9:08:20 AM PST by SlowBoat407 (Do not read this tagline.)
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To: bert

[[.....This occurred according to the Creator’s plan, where creatures reproduce after their kinds......

Your response: “Pure tripe”]]

Excellent rebutal- I’ll bet you won your class’ debate team showdown eh? Gold medal and all that I’ll bet?


22 posted on 02/14/2009 9:22:15 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: GodGunsGuts

[[he first extinct animal to be cloned. Unfortunately, the clone died shortly after birth “due to physical defects in its lungs.]]

This just in: Sources tell me that new information is coming to light concenring hte death of htis rare cloned creature- according to witnesses, this clone was seen inhaling from a bong, and sources close to the clone, tell me that sir clone was a heavy marrijuana user and a three pack a day camel unfiltered cigarette smoker. Sorces inform me that they knew hte end was near when they witnessed the Ibex huffing and puffing just trying ot get it’s rockign chair moving. “It was bad- Ibie would pant like a steam engine just walking up three or four steps- It was clear hte old goat wasn’t goign to live long- it comes as no surprise- The government should have upped the price of ciggs to $100 a pack to prevent Ibie from buying htem on his welfare check- But, at least we have fond memories of Ibie winning every swim race he ever entered,, and the olympic gold medals- how many again? somethign liek a gazzilion? Well, that was before the pot and smoking took hold of his life”


23 posted on 02/14/2009 9:28:53 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: bert

Everybody knows that wolves have baby elephants and cows give birth to baby kangaroos. Happens all the time.


24 posted on 02/14/2009 9:33:56 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. Margret Thatcher)
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To: Moonman62

[[Wouldn’t this mean that humans today would be greatly inferior to humans from 6000 years ago, and less numerous?]]

Inferior? No- more corrupted? Yep- The Mitochondrial EVE project bears this out perfectly, the further back they went, the less mutations they found, until they cameto what they called ‘the first women’ or hte “EVES” as they’ve dubbed them who showed remarkably pure genetics. so yes, it’s an established fact that species degrade over time, and do not, as claiemd by macroevolutionists, improve improve improve until miraculously, somehow, new morphological features and organs pop out of seemingly nowhere. Deleterious conditions are not conducive to massive gains in new organs and systems- nor do ‘neutral’ mutaitons help the cause any I’m afraid.


25 posted on 02/14/2009 9:35:06 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

Welephants and Kangows went extinct 900 million years ago and a great flood washed hteir bones away- but this great flood was only localized i nthe regions where Welephants and Kangows coexisted together nicely, Kangows being hte primary food source for hte Welephants who hunted in vicious and ruthless packs


26 posted on 02/14/2009 9:37:49 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop
Inferior? No- more corrupted?

Shouldn't we see effects of that on a larger scale. Shouldn't humans be less accomplished and less numerous now than they were then? Creationists have stated over and over again that mutations are a loss of information, and the article that anchors this thread claims that genetic degradation causes species to go extinct over time.

27 posted on 02/14/2009 9:42:36 AM PST by Moonman62 (I didn't compromise my soul to be popular. -- Jimmy Carter)
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To: Dusty Road

Those look like they’re in west Texas...


28 posted on 02/14/2009 9:46:19 AM PST by uglybiker (AAAAAAH!!! I'm covered in BEES!)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

“...and cows give birth to baby kangaroos.”

Kangamoos.


29 posted on 02/14/2009 9:47:07 AM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: Moonman62

[[Shouldn’t we see effects of that on a larger scale. Shouldn’t humans be less accomplished and less numerous now than they were then?]]

Not necessarily because God designed species to deal with mutationas and to adapt to them as needed- that is not to say that we are designed to effectively deal with any and all mutaitons, as some do cause serious problems with which we can not deal, but species are remarkably resilient

[[Creationists have stated over and over again that mutations are a loss of information, and the article that anchors this thread claims that genetic degradation causes species to go extinct over time.]]

Well it can cause species to go extinct. disease due to mutational changes can, and do, overwhelm species from time to time. However, this doesn’t undermine the resiliency of most species to most mutational mistakes. Again, the Mitochondrial EVE project shows that the human species’ genome has actually degraded over time, but it must also be pointed out that we are able to boost our resileiency by learnign abotu nutrition and healthy living, and infact we’ve increased our life’s expectancy as we’ve also learned to control diseases and mistakes due to mutations through our study of science- We are however a long way off fro mthe length of lives in the old testament- those folks were so genetically pure they could itnerbreed without consequences (at least for awhile, until more and more mutaitons came on hte scene which as we know, now causes serious birth defects if close kin produce offspring- hence hte practice is no logner practiced- or shopuld at least no logner be practiced, as well there is enough variety outside family lines to now choose from as well)


30 posted on 02/14/2009 10:26:52 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: PLMerite

[[Kangamoos]]

Lol- good one


31 posted on 02/14/2009 10:27:17 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Moonman62

[[Creationists have stated over and over again that mutations are a loss of information, and the article that anchors this thread claims that genetic degradation causes species to go extinct over time.]]

As well, we’re learnign about species preservation- intervening to prevent this from happeningin other species as well by learnign about problems and dealing with htem to help them survive and thrive- neutralizing some mistakes, helping to boost hteir immune responses etc. protecting htem from conditions that cause known mutaitons etc- So while yes, we become ‘weaker’ over time, this ‘weakness’ isn’t generally so severe and so rapid that we must hterefore succumb- We do have built in designed information that is precoded to deal with most mutaitons without ever sufferign from them even though they result in a loss- it depends on how severe the loss is, what it affects, whether it be a crucial system, or crucial cells etc or not. Which bring up another good point- that species have code that is PRECODED to deal with mutaitons in the future- this takes intelligent forward looking design knowledge, and a creation of htis code that anticipates changes before they happen- this isn’t accidental accumulations of lower info- this is a precise designed metainfo that anticipated problems and coded the species to deal with problems that hadn;’t even happened yet. Spooky eh?


32 posted on 02/14/2009 10:35:08 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

I guess we can give up on ever having a Jbex around, then.


33 posted on 02/14/2009 10:36:38 AM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, then writes again.)
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To: uglybiker

Good eye!


34 posted on 02/14/2009 10:49:53 AM PST by Dusty Road
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To: CottShop
The Mitochondrial EVE project bears this out perfectly, the further back they went, the less mutations they found, until they cameto what they called ‘the first women’ or hte “EVES” as they’ve dubbed them who showed remarkably pure genetics.

How do they tell the difference between "pure genetics" and impure genetics?

35 posted on 02/14/2009 11:22:10 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: GodGunsGuts

If the donor was FOUND DEAD—how much had the DNA deteriorated before they froze it?

That could be a large part of the problem, also.

One would think that the lungs would be the first to decompose—no air and blood circulation.


36 posted on 02/14/2009 11:34:13 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: ridesthemiles
If the donor was FOUND DEAD—how much had the DNA deteriorated before they froze it?

They took samples the year before it died.

37 posted on 02/14/2009 11:40:48 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

[[How do they tell the difference between “pure genetics” and impure genetics?]]

If you don’t know I aint gonna tell ya- from now on it’s up to you fella.

hint- loss of info- As well, you know full well what I mean and am referring to- tired of playing your symantics games-


38 posted on 02/14/2009 1:50:15 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop
How do they tell the difference between “pure genetics” and impure genetics?

If you don’t know I aint gonna tell ya- from now on it’s up to you fella.

As you can clearly see, the chromosome on the right is pure while the one on the left is impure.

hint- loss of info-

Fewer chromosomes? Fewer genes? Fewer fingers?

tired of playing your symantics games-

Would spell check kill you? LOL!

39 posted on 02/14/2009 2:00:00 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Swell picture- but hte pure genetic material is one with no mutation caused mistakes- which is exactly what the Mitochondrial EVE project found when they traced genetic material back to our supposed ‘mothers’- interestingly enough, the closer we got to our own time, the more corrupted via mutaitons results the genetics became- just as one would expect with hte greation of purer species codes which would then degrade over time due to mutaitons

[[Would spell check kill you? LOL!]]

Don’t have time- thnaks fer playin


40 posted on 02/14/2009 2:44:08 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Some call this an accident, lucky, and random occurance.

41 posted on 02/14/2009 2:50:01 PM PST by MaxMax (I'll welcome death when God calls me. Until then, the fight is on)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

[[Fewer chromosomes? Fewer genes? Fewer fingers?]]

This could result yes, from mutational mistakes which corrupt the genome, or the results may be far less dramatic and affect only minor systems, but the fact that corruption does take place, and can be verified to have benen increasing over time strongly suggests, once again, that species were created with pure genomes, and that after hte fall, were susceptible to corruption- just as God implied would happen IF we chose to eat the fruit- the genome has been ‘deteriorating’ ever since- thankfully htough God PREDESIGNED the genome to be able to handle stresses and mistakes to a certain degree, and htankfully, God has enabled scientists to be able to have hte wisdom and knowledge necessary to study and thrawt some mistakes, some of which are quite severe.

Good night-


42 posted on 02/14/2009 2:50:19 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop
which is exactly what the Mitochondrial EVE project found when they traced genetic material back to our supposed ‘mothers’- interestingly enough, the closer we got to our own time, the more corrupted via mutaitons results the genetics became

I'm really going to have to ask you for a source on that one. I've tried searching for backup for that claim, but everything I can find makes me think you misunderstood something you read.

43 posted on 02/14/2009 3:27:34 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: CottShop
but hte pure genetic material is one with no mutation caused mistakes

We have more "mistakes" than humans 1000 years ago? What bad things did these "mistakes" do to us?

44 posted on 02/14/2009 5:03:33 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: CottShop
but the fact that corruption does take place, and can be verified

You have a peer reviewed source for this claim?

just as God implied would happen IF we chose to eat the fruit

Animals didn't eat any fruit, why would their genome decay?

45 posted on 02/14/2009 5:06:41 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

bye bye kid- your ‘questions’ have become increasingly assinine- go back to DC and play yourl ittle games- done wasting time on you


46 posted on 02/14/2009 7:55:48 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

You’ll find it- keep looking- the further back they went, the less mutaitons they found


47 posted on 02/14/2009 8:09:56 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

Thanks for proving your scientific ignorance.


48 posted on 02/14/2009 9:02:20 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists, still bad at math.....)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

“Would spell check kill you? LOL!”

Yes, because it would stop me fepm intentionally pissing you off!


49 posted on 02/14/2009 9:11:43 PM PST by dalereed
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To: Old Professer

The next i-Bex will have a touch screen and GPS locator.


50 posted on 02/14/2009 9:13:56 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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