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Revelation, Speculation, and Science
AiG ^ | February 18, 2009 | Dr. Greg Bahnsen

Posted on 02/18/2009 9:17:16 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

Revelation, Speculation, and Science

by Dr. Greg Bahnsen

February 18, 2009

It is one of those embarrassing historical ironies that modern science could not have arisen except in the atmosphere of a Christian world-and-life view. Nevertheless, the scientific community today persists in playing the prodigal by assuming an antagonistic stance against the Christianity of divine revelation. Hypnotized by Darwin’s evolutionary scheme and enchanted with the products of scientific technology, modern man has granted science a secularized godship and bows before it in fetish idolatry.

The pitting of science against revelation is certainly odd. For, a certain state of affairs is needed for the scientific endeavor to be meaningful or fruitful. The scientist must believe that the state of affairs is conducive to science, or he would not venture into the scientific enterprise. He must believe that there is a world of things and processes that can be known and that he himself sustains a relationship to this world that allows him to know these objects and events. But then, what reason can the scientist give for his belief that the state of affairs is actually conducive to science? Why is the world such as it is and not otherwise?

The Predicament for Science...

(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationjunkscience; evolution; intelligentdesign; philosophy; spam; spamspamspamspam
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1 posted on 02/18/2009 9:17:16 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

ping!


2 posted on 02/18/2009 9:17:50 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


3 posted on 02/18/2009 9:19:43 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts

GodSpamGutsSpamSomeMoreSpamGutsFullOfSpam strikes again.


4 posted on 02/18/2009 9:36:13 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
The methodology of science is simply not equipped to deal with events that are neither recurring or repeatable under experimental control.

Well, then, police departments should disband their forensic labs, or else expand them to include reenactments of murders using actual new victims.

God, is the guy who scribbled this article an idiot....

5 posted on 02/18/2009 9:38:22 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
To pretend to answer questions about origins by extrapolating the observable present into the unobservable past is to reason in a circle

[JOHNNY COCHRAN] If you weren't present at the killin', you must let my client go chillin'! [/JOHNNY COCHRAN]

6 posted on 02/18/2009 9:42:25 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Evolution and Christianity are perfectly compatible.


7 posted on 02/18/2009 11:11:26 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: steve-b

I think this guy is a plant.


8 posted on 02/18/2009 11:29:14 AM PST by Darwin Fish (God invented evolution. Man invented religeon.)
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To: Darwin Fish

Speaking of plants. You are a total noob who seems to know all about FR, to include all the acronyms of our nemesis websites, and yet you only just signed up. If anyone on this thread is a plant, it is you.


9 posted on 02/18/2009 11:40:31 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

“nemesis websites”???

Sounds awfully cloak and dagger. Do you have the secret passwords?


10 posted on 02/18/2009 11:44:47 AM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
Evolution and Christianity are perfectly compatible.

I'll save various people the effort and go ahead and tell you that you are a believer in ATHEIST science and a BOOT-LiCkeR at the CULT of the Temple of Darwin. You also don't know REAL science because the amazingly brilliant Dr. Russell HUMPHREYS has made a total laughingstock of ATHEIST SCIENTISTS. Here's an example of his astounding, amazingly brilliant brilliance:

But the Bible implies that the real universe indeed has a center! Appendix B of Starlight and Time details much of what follows. After creating a light-years-size ball of water (Genesis 1:2, "the deep ... the waters"), God said, "Let there be an expanse |or "firmament"| in the midst of the waters" (Genesis 1:6, italics mine). So the expanse started near the center of the large ball of water as a thin spherical layer separating a planet-size ball of water inside it from the much larger amount of water outside it

Yes, the universe was created from a giant ball of water a couple of light years in diameter. Imagine the fear in the hearts of ATHEIST scientists when they encounter that kind of brilliance. The earth is 6,000 years old and there is no evidence for evolution. ATHEIST scientists are hiding the truth and you are a SYCOPHANT licking their boots.

Oh, you're not a real Christian either because the Bible says in the Book of Opinions that evolution does not exist.

If you have a science education and career, you're doubly evil.

Sorry to be so tough on you -- I'm just saving bandwidth. ;-)


11 posted on 02/18/2009 12:03:46 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: Buck W.
Sounds awfully cloak and dagger. Do you have the secret passwords?

Funny you should say this. A few threads ago one of the commenters talked about his "sources" who knew how to handle people like me. I asked them whether they had a Secret Decoder Ring.


12 posted on 02/18/2009 12:12:27 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike

All I can say, sir, is thank you! Where was my head at?


13 posted on 02/18/2009 12:17:07 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: steve-b
God, is the guy who scribbled this article an idiot....

You dare question this amazingly brilliant article? See comment 11 for a foretaste of what is coming to you.

For what it's worth, I am a conservative, committed Christian who believes the entire Bible. I'm just embarassed by these Young-Earth Creationists who post nonsense like this -- they keep educated people from coming to know Christ. Please don't judge all Christians by what you read in posts like this.


14 posted on 02/18/2009 12:20:17 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: Buck W.
Where was my head at?

Probably licking the boots of Satan himself at the CULT of the Temple of Darwin.


15 posted on 02/18/2009 12:22:02 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: GodGunsGuts

“Hypnotized by Darwin’s evolutionary scheme and enchanted with the products of scientific technology, modern man has granted science a secularized godship and bows before it in fetish idolatry.”

...I’m jealous that I didn’t think of that line!


16 posted on 02/18/2009 12:24:24 PM PST by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: DallasMike

LOL!

I think that Book of Opinions must be in the Apocrypha - my KJV seems to have left it out...


17 posted on 02/18/2009 12:25:55 PM PST by headsonpikes (Genocide is the highest sacrament of socialism.)
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To: DallasMike

“Probably licking the boots of Satan himself at the CULT of the Temple of Darwin.”

Bummer! I hate it when that happens!


18 posted on 02/18/2009 12:29:01 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

Does anyone besides me find it interesting that when we dig up bones from the recent ice age they’re still bones, but going back further, all the fossils are mineralized.

If mammoths and dinosaurs lived in the same millennium, what special miracle mineralized the dino bones and left the mammoth bones intact?


19 posted on 02/18/2009 12:31:07 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138

It’s even more interesting that there seems to be a belief that mineralization can occur over the span of just a few years. I read a post here a couple of days ago in which the author reports the existence of a lake in which logs turned to stone almost immediately. Although the newly “stoned” logs are now nowhere to be found, the poster was convinced of the story’s veracity because there were eyewitnesses.


20 posted on 02/18/2009 12:36:31 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: DallasMike
For what it's worth, I am a conservative, committed Christian who believes the entire Bible. I'm just embarassed by these Young-Earth Creationists who post nonsense like this -- they keep educated people from coming to know Christ. Please don't judge all Christians by what you read in posts like this.

As one of the Church Fathers put it:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for a non-believer to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn."
--St. Augustine

21 posted on 02/18/2009 12:39:08 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Buck W.

Mineralization doesn’t take millions or even thousands of years. The problem I pose is not the speed of mineralization but the selectivity.

Why are all fossils dates as old by radiometric dating, and believed to be old by evolutionary biologists, mineralized?

But bones of recent mammals are still bones. We even have mammoth DNA.

And yes, I’m quite aware of the so-called red meat found in dino bones. It’s red minerals. If it were real, creation scientists would be all over it, because plenty of dino bones are in private hands. If they had dino DNA, all you’d have to do is crack open a few on live TV and prove it to the world.

Alas, the collagen found in the dino bones is almost certainly bacterial.


22 posted on 02/18/2009 12:47:40 PM PST by js1138
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To: steve-b

If you read “ City of God Against the Pagans,” you will learn that Augustine included old-earth compromisers in that discription. He was himself a YEC, and despised old-earthers as being corrupted by “paganism.”


23 posted on 02/18/2009 1:45:54 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: steve-b

Interesting that even though Augustine and Aquinas did not have the benefit of recent scientific findings, they anticipated them and anticipated the need for people of faith to adjust to reality.

Aquinas in particular said there are different ways of understanding the Bible, and it is foolish and counterproductive to insist on an interpretation that is contrary to fact.


24 posted on 02/18/2009 1:52:19 PM PST by js1138
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To: steve-b

Thanks, I like that quote. It can never be repeated enough on threads like these.


25 posted on 02/18/2009 1:58:14 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: js1138

Excellent point. If Augustine had access to the knowledge that we have today, he would most definitely NOT be a Young Earth Creationist. Not only that, he would chew them up one side and down the other for their misleading tactics and their denial of what God has revealed to us in his creation.


26 posted on 02/18/2009 2:11:35 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: steve-b
The article also says this:
Naturalistic science will usually retort that examination of present materials and processes enables us to extrapolate backwards so as to determine what must have occurred. But here again, forsaking his own basic methods, the scientist is speculating (not observing) on the course of historical development; he assumes (but cannot show experimentally) that not only is nature uniform now but always has been, that processes seen today have always worked as they do now.

Yet, the same site has several articles and videos that measure the current rate of decay in the earth's magnetic field and extapolate it backwards to what it would have been 6,000 years ago.

We have been able to measure the strength of the magnetic field for over a century, and not surprisingly, the earth’s magnetic field is indeed decaying. Every century, the magnetic field decays by about 5 percent. Since the earth’s magnetic field gets weaker as time moves forward, it must have been considerably stronger in the past. Approximately 6,000 years ago, the magnetic field would have been quite a lot stronger, but still perfectly suitable for life.

However, if the earth were many millions of years old, then the geomagnetic field would have been so strong in that alleged distant past, that life would not have been possible.

Answers in Genesis is a self-conflicting website, yet everything is presented, literally, as God-given truth. Go figure.

27 posted on 02/18/2009 2:53:23 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike

They also promote the RATE Project which published radiometric dating results ranging from a few thousand to 500 million years. Guess which results aren’t mentioned in their general articles.

If you dig into the complete published document, the old dates are explained away by assuming a short period of miraculously rapid radioactive decay. In other words, modify physical constants as needed to fit the predetermined age.

I can live with people who believe in miracles, but I have problems with people who claim to be scientific until it is inconvenient.


28 posted on 02/18/2009 3:12:23 PM PST by js1138
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To: GodGunsGuts

This Bahnsen dude died 13 years ago.

Maybe he’d have changed his mind with all the scientific advances since his death, like the Tiktaalik prediction and discovery.


29 posted on 02/18/2009 3:31:55 PM PST by whattajoke
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To: js1138
They also promote the RATE Project which published radiometric dating results ranging from a few thousand to 500 million years. Guess which results aren’t mentioned in their general articles.
Yes, I'm familiar with the RATE project. The sad thing is how the Young Earth Creationists deceive by leaving out inconvenient facts and creating fantastic Rube Goldberg scenarios to fit the facts with a Dark Ages interpretation of the Bible

When honest people point out the deceptions, the ignorance, and the logical fallacies, they are met with derision.


30 posted on 02/18/2009 3:36:21 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: whattajoke
Michael Denton (Evolution: a Theory in Crisis) came over to the Dark Side. He didn't become an atheist or anything like that, but he was clever enough to notice that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.
31 posted on 02/18/2009 3:38:57 PM PST by js1138
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

See if you can spot the kiss-up.


32 posted on 02/18/2009 4:06:20 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Speaking of plants. You are a total noob who seems to know all about FR, to include all the acronyms of our nemesis websites, and yet you only just signed up. If anyone on this thread is a plant, it is you.

...and has no idea how to spell religion.You'd think these 14 year olds would figure out too many people are onto them by now.

33 posted on 02/18/2009 5:32:36 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: DallasMike

No, you’re just full of projections.


34 posted on 02/18/2009 5:35:27 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: DallasMike

they keep educated people from coming to know Christ. Please don’t judge all Christians by what you read in posts like this.


Soooo explain how people are brought to Christ by defending the godless liberal ACLU, and NEA, and DEMANDING children be taught God “has no place in science class” (among just about everywhere and anywhere else) while denying His creation...

but give me 3 minutes so I can pop some popcorn.


35 posted on 02/18/2009 5:45:32 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: DallasMike

Excellent point. If Augustine had access to the knowledge that we have today, he would most definitely NOT be a Young Earth Creationist. Not only that, he would chew them up one side and down the other for their misleading tactics and their denial of what God has revealed to us in his creation.


Do you have a crystal ball or some channel to St. Augustine?


36 posted on 02/18/2009 5:50:23 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: DallasMike
The sad thing is how the Young Earth Creationists deceive by leaving out inconvenient facts and creating fantastic Rube Goldberg scenarios to fit the facts with a Dark Ages interpretation of the Bible.

When honest people point out the deceptions, the ignorance, and the logical fallacies, they are met with derision.


Here's an excellent, reasoned, professional and honest way to deal with creationist tactics.
37 posted on 02/18/2009 5:54:21 PM PST by whattajoke
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To: DallasMike
...Dark Ages interpretation of the Bible...

Since you said earlier you're a Christian, I'd be interested on your definition of the term.

38 posted on 02/18/2009 5:54:51 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: GodGunsGuts; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; MrB; Ethan Clive Osgoode; valkyry1; Fichori
See if you can spot the kiss-up.

I don't know about that, but of all the articles you pinged me to, it appears most of the usual suspects chose this one to infect with their usual failed projections and drivel.

39 posted on 02/18/2009 6:02:46 PM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther
Soooo explain how people are brought to Christ by defending the godless liberal ACLU, and NEA, and DEMANDING children be taught God “has no place in science class” (among just about everywhere and anywhere else) while denying His creation...

What does that have to with anything, other than trying to change the subject and pretend that I support those organizations? If you were capable of doing so, you would defend your argument on its merits.

To answer your question though, consider that China is an officially atheist country and persecutes Christians terribly. The Chinese government makes the NEA and the ACLU look like Ronald Reagan in comparison. Yet Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds even though you can lose your liberty, your belongings, your family, or your life by proclaiming the gospel. People can be brought to know Christ regardless of the NEA and the ACLU.


40 posted on 02/18/2009 6:03:00 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: tpanther
No, you’re just full of projections.

You're quite wrong, as these words have been directed toward me on several threads. Ad hominem attacks seem to be the highest form of intellectual argument that the rabid Young-Earth Creationists are capable of.

Please note how I differentiate rabid Young-Earth creationists from ordinary Christians who believe in a young earth.


41 posted on 02/18/2009 6:12:16 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: tpanther
==I don't know about that

What else do you call Christians who ridicule and disavow their fellow Christians in order to ingraciate themselves with Temple of Darwin atheists? From Richard Darwkins:

Although at times Richard Dawkins has applauded, and appealed to, Christian leaders for their opposition to creationist beliefs, elsewhere he has ridiculed them for believing in evolution. For example, he said:

“Oh but of course the story of Adam and Eve was only ever symbolic, wasn’t it? Symbolic?! Jesus had himself tortured and executed for a symbolic sin by a non-existent individual. Nobody not brought up in the faith could reach any verdict other than barking mad!”2

And he went on to say:

“It seems to me an odd proposition that we should adhere to some parts of the Bible story but not to others. After all, when it comes to important moral questions, by what standards do we cherry-pick the Bible? Why bother with the Bible at all if we have the ability to pick and choose from it, what is right and what is wrong?”

42 posted on 02/18/2009 6:17:40 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: tpanther

See what I mean. They play the wounded Christian while at the same time stabbing you in the back. Hugh Ross and non-RTB have perfected this duplicitous and hypocritical tactic into a fine art.


43 posted on 02/18/2009 6:23:31 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts; YHAOS; Fichori; tpanther; valkyry1; Mr. Silverback; Ethan Clive Osgoode; betty boop; ..

Looks like you hit a nerve with this one.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen them hijack a thread so fast in my years on FR.


44 posted on 02/18/2009 6:27:02 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

The evo gang here are surely not scientists, so this shouldn’t phase them at all...


45 posted on 02/18/2009 6:31:01 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: Buck W.
"Evolution and Christianity are perfectly compatible."

In the minds of lunatics!

46 posted on 02/18/2009 6:33:20 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: Buck W.; GodGunsGuts
"Do you have the secret passwords?"

Tubular Cane! (or something like that)

47 posted on 02/18/2009 6:36:02 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: metmom

There is nothing they hate worse then Christians educating Christians about the assault on their faith by Darwinist wolves in sheeps clothing.


48 posted on 02/18/2009 6:37:33 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: editor-surveyor

Amen to that brother!


49 posted on 02/18/2009 6:38:39 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Buck W.; DallasMike
"Where was my head at?"

That's something that we've been wondering since you showed up here spinning in a daze.

50 posted on 02/18/2009 6:40:24 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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