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The carnivorous nature and suffering of animals
CMI ^ | Robert J. M. Gurney

Posted on 02/20/2009 8:19:51 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

The carnivorous nature and suffering of animals

by Robert J. M. Gurney

All evolutionists and virtually all old-earth creationists believe that animals were killing and eating one another for millions of years, long before the Fall of man. Young-earth creationists argue that this is incompatible with Scripture. Old-earthers dispute the young-earthers’ interpretation of Scripture and employ at least two other counterarguments. One is that carnivorous behaviour is actually very good, and the other is that animals in the wild do not suffer. There is very good reason to believe that they do suffer; but even if they do not, carnivorous activity before the Fall remains incompatible with Scripture...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationontheweb.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: carnivorous; creation; evolution; intelligentdesign; spam
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1 posted on 02/20/2009 8:19:52 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 02/20/2009 8:20:26 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

This is my biggest bugaboo with those that state that

evolution is compatible with creation.

The first thing that God observed wasn’t “good” was that Man was alone.

Mutation, disease, death & predation amongst His other creations is “good”?

Genesis also specifically states that plants were the food for every creature.


3 posted on 02/20/2009 8:24:21 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Young earthers and old earthers arguing the equivelant of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. With about the same relevance.


4 posted on 02/20/2009 8:25:55 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Young-earth creationists argue that this is incompatible with Scripture.

Ahh - so T. Rexes ate salads before the Fall of Man. Those dagger-teeth were just for show. Then they started eating critters until they were drowned in the Flood.

Gotcha.

5 posted on 02/20/2009 8:29:41 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: MrB

The thing about eating veggies changes in Genesis. Prior to the flood there appeared to be some sort of an antediluvian peace during which everybody ate veggies. After the flood God tells Noah and his descendants that they can kill and eat animals. That would also correspond with the end of man’s ability to communicate with the other animals.


6 posted on 02/20/2009 8:30:32 AM PST by varmintman
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To: dirtboy

7 posted on 02/20/2009 8:31:06 AM PST by Caramelgal (This tagline is currently on strike, waiting for my bail out. I want me some tagline porkulus!)
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To: dirtboy

Midrashim describes a handful of leftover dinosaurs walking around at a time just prior to the flood. But that’s all they were; the true main age of dinosaurs would have been a few thousand or tens of thousands of years back. In particular there is no way humans could ever have lived around raptors without automatic weapons.


8 posted on 02/20/2009 8:32:03 AM PST by varmintman
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To: MrB
The first thing that God observed wasn’t “good” was that Man was alone.

Yet, He was the one who put man there by himself.

9 posted on 02/20/2009 8:32:04 AM PST by raybbr (It's going to get a lot worse now that the anchor babies are voting!)
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To: dirtboy

DIRTBOY!!!

Don’t cloud fantasy with LOGIC and FACTS!!!! It will get you FLAMED!!!

Using the Bible to interpret biological evolution is like using a law book to perform brain surgery. Neither one has anything to do with the other.


10 posted on 02/20/2009 8:32:56 AM PST by ZULU (The Obamanation of Desolation stands here. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: varmintman

I’ve posed this question to the folks at AIG, and they said there was no definitive answer as to whether animals preyed on each other between the Fall and post-Flood.

Genesis specifically states that Man can now eat meat after the Flood (and not before), and that (to make it fair, I suppose), animals would now fear Man.


11 posted on 02/20/2009 8:33:54 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: saganite
Young earthers and old earthers arguing the equivelant of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Geez, every dummy knows that! It's 72, isn't it? Or am I confusing that with something else?????

12 posted on 02/20/2009 8:35:30 AM PST by eeriegeno (<p>)
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To: ZULU

Maybe the T. Rexes ate Spam. That isn’t really meat, after all.


13 posted on 02/20/2009 8:37:50 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: GodGunsGuts
“Consider the subtleness of the sea; how its most dreaded creatures glide under water, unapparent for the most part, and treacherously hidden beneath the loveliest tints of azure. Consider also the devilish brilliance and beauty of many of its most remorseless tribes, as the dainty embellished shape of many species of sharks. Consider, once more, the universal cannibalism of the sea; all whose creatures prey upon each other, carrying on eternal war since the world began.

“Consider all this; and then turn to this green, gentle, and most docile earth; consider them both, the sea and the land; and do you not find a strange analogy to something in yourself? For as this appalling ocean surrounds the verdant land, so in the soul of man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of peace and joy, but encompassed by all the horrors of the half known life. God keep thee! Push not off from that isle, thou canst never return!”

Herman Melville
Moby Dick

Nature is a bloodbath. Those who have never pushed off from that insular Tahiti are peaceful and joyful in the ignorance of this. Those who have can never return.

14 posted on 02/20/2009 8:39:26 AM PST by Savage Beast (The Left is decadence. Hubris and denial lead to tragedy. Marxism is a Fools' Paradise.)
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To: eeriegeno

Depends on the definition of angel. And dance. And pin. Once you nail those down you have the question of timing. ;^)


15 posted on 02/20/2009 8:39:35 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: dirtboy

FWIW, the entire cat family, and a good many others, are obligate carnivores. That means they must have the concentrated nutrition in meat, as their digestive tracts are too short to effectively digest anything else. Many other “carnivores,” such as humans, bears and dogs, are really omnivores, as they can survive just fine without meat.

Fairly often today’s nutso vegans try to convert their kitty, which usually results in Fluffy starving to death.


16 posted on 02/20/2009 8:41:53 AM PST by Sherman Logan (Everyone has a right to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.)
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To: MrB

“This is my biggest bugaboo with those that state that evolution is compatible with creation.”

Yep, they are not compatible, even if Genesis is allegory, the whole premise the Bible assumes is nature is in need of redemption.


17 posted on 02/20/2009 8:43:43 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: MrB

Nothing has teeth like the carnosaurs had for eating apples and oranges. Like I said, the dinosaurs walking around prior to the flood were leftovers and likely did not include any of the dangerous kinds. It seems likely to me that there was an age of dinosaurs which was a fang/claw sort of age, followed by the antediluvian period described in Genesis during which meat was not eaten, followed by what you read after the flood.


18 posted on 02/20/2009 8:46:32 AM PST by varmintman
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To: MrB
Death, carnivory, and the shedding of blood are part of the curse. I can see why the natural mind think we're nuts on this subject. The idea that a T. Rex was once an herbivore seems about as likely as a human being being supernaturally raised from the dead.
19 posted on 02/20/2009 8:47:12 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: saganite

I don’t think it’s equivalent at all. The Bible clearly says some stuff about humanity, creation, and the fall. If that stuff isn’t true, the Bible isn’t true.

I’m not just talking about the definition of “day”. I’m talking about the origin of death and suffering and the need of a Holy Sacrifice to cure death. The Humanist/quasi-Christian hybrid called “Old Earth” has a problem when it comes to the origins of death and suffering.


20 posted on 02/20/2009 8:47:29 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod

Um, my comment was meant as ridicule. Don’t take it seriously as I don’t intend to enter into any sort of discussion relating to this ridiculous topic.


21 posted on 02/20/2009 8:49:56 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: dirtboy
Ahh - so T. Rexes ate salads before the Fall of Man. Those dagger-teeth were just for show. Then they started eating critters until they were drowned in the Flood.

"I think I'll have the Spinach Salad with Bleu Cheese crumbles, thank you."

22 posted on 02/20/2009 8:51:46 AM PST by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


23 posted on 02/20/2009 8:53:35 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MrB

Also note, death, we are told, entered when Adam fell. Obviously this did not happen in the evolutionist view of things, where things were dying by the billions long before Adam came into being.

Thus, evolutionary thought lifts the curse! And without a curse, who needs a Savior?


24 posted on 02/20/2009 8:53:47 AM PST by Marie2 (Ora et labora)
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To: varmintman

Please note human next to dino footprints at the Paluxy River Bed.


25 posted on 02/20/2009 8:54:35 AM PST by Marie2 (Ora et labora)
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To: dread78645

"Hold the roast duck, just bring me the mango salsa..."

26 posted on 02/20/2009 8:55:38 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Savage Beast

I spent many hours of my life wading through that stream of consciousness called Moby Dick. With only 3 chapters left, I put it down saying, “there’s nothing that could happen in three chapters that would make reading any further worth my while.”


27 posted on 02/20/2009 9:04:17 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“raised from the dead.”

That’s certainly isn’t science. It must be allegory.


28 posted on 02/20/2009 9:06:41 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

about 2 years ago I read an article “Death to the Commentaries”, or was it ‘Commentators’? Consider it.

Commentaries have indeed created many confusing doctrines; and false ideas have entered into the understanding of the Scriptures.

Read and study the scriptures for yourself; and the Holy Spirit will teach you.

The church has changed during my lifetime; and when it is considered the times since Jesus walked on earth ... the changes have been many. We know that for sure from history itself. It is almost as if we believe the commentators/commentaries more than the scriptures.

Do not be mislead.

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God; and he that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; it shall be given to him.” James 1:5

We were born for Jesus to heal us.


29 posted on 02/20/2009 9:09:16 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: saganite

So you just came into the thread to inform us how silly we all are? So essentially, you’re above all this and proclaiming this is equal to that, not allowing or accepting that this is not equal to that.


30 posted on 02/20/2009 9:10:50 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod

Think of me as the peanut gallery. Knock yourself out talking about it. It’s irrelevant to me but if it’s important to you don’t mind me. I’ll just watch.


31 posted on 02/20/2009 9:13:32 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: GodGunsGuts

These people need to go get a job. In this day and age, aren’t there more serious things to worry about.


32 posted on 02/20/2009 9:14:04 AM PST by RC2
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To: saganite

Wow! I thought I was a pretty big jerk but you get the prize. You’re probably one of the few Freepers, whom I have contentious disagreement, who I’d actually dislike if I met face to face.


33 posted on 02/20/2009 9:18:15 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Reading through this thread, I’m getting a serious craving for a t-bone steak, rare, and some ribs.


34 posted on 02/20/2009 9:22:01 AM PST by Jack Hammer (here)
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To: Marie2
Thus, evolutionary thought lifts the curse! And without a curse, who needs a Savior?

That's probably the point.

As well as those who have the viewpoint that man is basically good, or that other religions provide another way to God through works, etc. All have the logical result that Jesus wasn't necessary.

35 posted on 02/20/2009 9:25:06 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: GodGunsGuts

You mean like tigers ate straw and ate pumas pinecones, stuff like that


36 posted on 02/20/2009 9:31:31 AM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: yankeedame

Yep, that there’s as crazy as someone believing that the universe was created in 6 days with a spoken word of a transcendent Creator.

And that He came to His creation as a human and suffered and died for us.

And as crazy as people rising from the dead or suddenly seeing after being born blind.

Crazy, crazy stuff.


37 posted on 02/20/2009 9:34:35 AM PST by MrB (The 0bamanation: Marxism, Infanticide, Appeasement, Depression, Thuggery, and Censorship)
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To: dirtboy

You don’t get it.

Since their teeth couldn’t cut up the veggies right, they didn’t grow so big. That’s also how they fit on the ark.


38 posted on 02/20/2009 9:35:41 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: GodGunsGuts

“Suffering” is a subjective term.

In order to “suffer” one must have human consciousness. Everything els is merely animal stimulous response.


39 posted on 02/20/2009 9:37:37 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in the 1930's.)
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To: saganite

Four.

No, six!


40 posted on 02/20/2009 9:38:15 AM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in the 1930's.)
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To: demshateGod
My experience was the opposite. I spent many years ignoring Moby Dick because I expected it to be boring. When I finally picked it up--and why I don't know--I couldn't put it down. I was amazed at its depth and clarity.
41 posted on 02/20/2009 9:55:19 AM PST by Savage Beast (The Left is decadence. Hubris and denial lead to tragedy. Marxism is a Fools' Paradise.)
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To: Savage Beast

Clarity? I’m glad you enjoyed it though.


42 posted on 02/20/2009 10:14:42 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod

Why, thank you!


43 posted on 02/20/2009 10:20:30 AM PST by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: From many - one.; dirtboy
Since their teeth couldn’t cut up the veggies right, they didn’t grow so big. That’s also how they fit on the ark.

But the dino’s big teeth did give them big broad toothy friendly smiles as they passed by the salad bar.

Actual Photographic Evidence, courtesy the Creation Museum


44 posted on 02/20/2009 10:26:22 AM PST by Caramelgal (This tagline is currently on strike, waiting for my bail out. I want me some tagline porkulus!)
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To: From many - one.

I see.

So the Dinosaurs were originally like mainly vegetarian eastern Asian immigrants to the U.S. who are rather short, but their children who eat meat here in the U.S. grow to the size of most Americans.

The Dinosaurs originally ate vegetables and were only say, raptor-sized, but after the Garden of Eden they started eating each other and grew to the size of buses.

I get it. Now its soooo much clearer.

I fail to understand how the people who concoct these anti-evolutionary theories SERIOUSLY fail to consider how much this stuff discredits serious Christians and Christianity?

Christianity and the Bible are about faith, morality, the fall of man, the promise of redemption, the fulfillment of that redemption, a future last judgement and a new world.
It is NOT a scientific text. It never was meant to be.

Yet these people CONTINUALLY come up with preposterous stories like human fossil footprints found next to dinosaur tracks, refuse to acknowledge the geological record, ignore biochemistry and genetics, and CONTINUE to equate belief in evolution with Biblical heresy. I just don’t get it. Maybe having read about Galileo and the Inquisition and the geocentric theory of astromony and the reactions of some orthodox clergymen to those situations doesn’t register with them.

Well, Christianity survived the Church saying the Bible infers earth was the center of the world so I guess it can survive people who believe Dinosaurs walked with Adam and ate plants until after the fall of man.


45 posted on 02/20/2009 10:36:19 AM PST by ZULU (The Obamanation of Desolation stands here. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: ZULU

There’s actually a real and rather sad reason.

The idea comes from a notion that, I think, originated in the 1800’s that the Bible had to be literally “true” in every word or it (and, specifically, Jesus) “lied” meaning there was nothing to believe in at all. Many honest and sincere Christians take it as an article of faith, and I never argue with them.

Some, that I consider troublemakers and possibly not really Christians, will dishonestly misrepresent the science in order to bolster their own weak faith, or just to be difficult. Generally I ignore them.


46 posted on 02/20/2009 10:58:59 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: GodGunsGuts

I think you play a game with yourself. That is, “Of the 12 dumb articles I post on FR every day, I will try to outdo the stupidity of the stupidest one from yesterday.”

From this one: “In today’s fallen world, carnivores eat other animals. But God’s original creation was perfect; man and all the animals were herbivores.”

Score one for GGG.


47 posted on 02/20/2009 11:00:33 AM PST by whattajoke (.)
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To: whattajoke
Plants have feelings too.


48 posted on 02/20/2009 11:21:44 AM PST by js1138
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To: From many - one.

Well, actually, I believe all of it is “true” but that doesn’t mean that a literal interpretation of everything said needs to be taken literally. A lot of allegory and symbolism there which is in essence “true” if you don’t get wrapped up in the minutia.

But thanks for that explanation. It makes sense. So does your advice.


49 posted on 02/20/2009 11:40:40 AM PST by ZULU (The Obamanation of Desolation stands here. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: Savage Beast
"--I couldn't put it down. I was amazed at its depth and clarity. " How many fathoms? I think Melville tells how deep the white whale dives with Ahab on it before it comes up again. I understand the white whale was symbolical of something, but never figured it out. Perhaps socialism. Get hooked up with it and it will drown you. But I guess that is a modernist view.
50 posted on 02/20/2009 11:43:54 AM PST by ZULU (The Obamanation of Desolation stands here. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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