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Border agents shoot suspected drug smuggler in N.M.
KTAR.COM ^ | February 20th, 2009 @ 8:49am | Associated Press

Posted on 02/20/2009 11:48:03 AM PST by AndrewC

EL PASO, Texas -- U.S. Border Patrol agents have shot a man authorities describe as a suspected drug smuggler in the New Mexico desert west of Santa Teresa. ...

(Excerpt) Read more at ktar.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: New Mexico
KEYWORDS: aliens; borderagents; borderpatrol; drugs; illegalimmigration; ramosandcompean
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Another "abuse of Border Patrol authority". Hope these agents have better luck than Ramos and Compean. Since the story lists the victim as a "suspected" drug smuggler these agents are in big trouble. There could have been a mother and her children in the vehicle.
1 posted on 02/20/2009 11:48:03 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

As long as they didn’t tamper with the scene, ala R & C, they won’t have a problem.


2 posted on 02/20/2009 11:49:29 AM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: calcowgirl; Cyropaedia

Ping. Something to get ahead of?


3 posted on 02/20/2009 11:49:37 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: Badeye

Ramos did not tamper with the scene.


4 posted on 02/20/2009 11:50:29 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

Okay, so why did you name both?

Can’t have it both ways, as so many want to desperately related to R&C.

Let it go, it distracts from the real argument here, related to border security, amnesty, illegal immigration.

JMHO.


5 posted on 02/20/2009 11:54:22 AM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: AndrewC

6 posted on 02/20/2009 11:57:13 AM PST by papasmurf (Impeach the illegal bastard!)
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To: AndrewC

On the bright side, Johnny Sutton works in Texas.


7 posted on 02/20/2009 11:58:26 AM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: AndrewC

Mexican drug dealers and other criminals are invading the country, and 0 wants to disarm us. The criminals will become the foxes and the law-abiding citizens will be waiting for them in the henhouse if they give up their weapons.


8 posted on 02/20/2009 11:59:41 AM PST by 353FMG (Trust in Glock.)
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To: Badeye
As long as they didn’t tamper with the scene, ala R & C, ...and continued to fire until he stopped moving..., they won’t have a problem.

Fixed.

9 posted on 02/20/2009 12:03:41 PM PST by D Rider
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To: Badeye
Okay, so why did you name both?

Might it be related to the fact that they both ended up in jail for doing their job? Ramos did not tamper with the scene and Compean did not injure Davila. So why did you make the statement about tampering with the scene and mention both? You can't have it both ways.

Yes this is related to those subjects, and when you jail your enforcers for doing their jobs you are on the wrong side.

P.S. And don't strawman shooting "innocent" people in the back. The situation was fast developing and more complex than just shooting someone in the back.

JMHO2

10 posted on 02/20/2009 12:10:43 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: pissant
On the bright side, Johnny Sutton works in Texas.

But stupidity presently reigns everywhere in our federal government.

11 posted on 02/20/2009 12:14:45 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

Here’s hoping these border patrol agents don’t wind up in jail...


12 posted on 02/20/2009 12:16:47 PM PST by Professor_Leonide (I said to the young man who showed me a photo, "Who can ever be sure what is behind a mask?")
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To: AndrewC

‘So why did you make the statement about tampering with the scene and mention both? You can’t have it both ways.’

Actually I can, because they were both convicted.


13 posted on 02/20/2009 12:18:26 PM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: D Rider

(chuckle)

Fair enough.


14 posted on 02/20/2009 12:18:54 PM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: CedarDave; LegendHasIt; Rogle; leapfrog0202; Santa Fe_Conservative; DesertDreamer; ...
Photobucket

NM Ping

If you want on or off the NM Ping list, please FReepmail me.

Access to the ping list is available to anyone by going to my FR home page.

15 posted on 02/20/2009 12:25:00 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Google "Illinois' history of insatiable greed" for insight into what is coming our way.)
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To: AndrewC
"Doing their jobs?" ROTFLMAO

I'd be leery of seeing working unarmed as security guards at a shopping mall.

16 posted on 02/20/2009 12:26:00 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Badeye
Actually I can, because they were both convicted.

You can make any statement you want, even an inconsistent one. Yes they were both convicted, but your statement was about tampering with a scene.

17 posted on 02/20/2009 12:26:30 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: 1rudeboy
Seeing them.
18 posted on 02/20/2009 12:27:02 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: AndrewC

Why are you fixated on evidence tampering? Ramos knew the scene was tampered with, and didn’t report it. What’s the real difference?


19 posted on 02/20/2009 12:28:34 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
"Doing their jobs?" ROTFLMAO

You obviously missed the testimony establishing that nearly the whole contingent of the Fabens station was at the scence, including two supervisors. Ramos and Compean were doing their jobs.

20 posted on 02/20/2009 12:29:52 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: 1rudeboy
Why are you fixated on evidence tampering? Ramos knew the scene was tampered with, and didn’t report it. What’s the real difference?

First, I did not bring up the "tampering". I was responding. Second, provide proof that Ramos knew of the "tampering". There is not one shred of testimony or evidence that Ramos knew that Compean did anything but follow him. You might as well as assert that Yrigoyen and Mendez didn't report it. They were on the levee.

21 posted on 02/20/2009 12:33:22 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

You obviously missed the jury’s verdict after they heard the testimony. And quit the BS about the supervisors. Ramos (a weapons instructor!) and Compean were obligated to inform their superiors what happened, and they didn’t.


22 posted on 02/20/2009 12:33:24 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: AndrewC

When Ramos didn’t report the shooting (his or Compean’s), he effectively “tampered” with the evidence. Splitting hairs about it doesn’t help your argument.


23 posted on 02/20/2009 12:35:01 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: AndrewC

Yes, and it was tampered with.

Circular argument, friend, lets not.

I”m happy they got a commuted sentence, and now can get on with their lives.

And its my hope we won’t cloud the serious issues of the lack of effective border security, and illegal immigration and its ramifications with tangents like the one here with R&C.

That was then. Its over. Lets focus on now, and tomorrow, where the battle is raging, and will be won or lost on those issues.


24 posted on 02/20/2009 12:52:40 PM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: 1rudeboy
You obviously missed the jury’s verdict after they heard the testimony.

No I didn't. I just consider them in the O.J. Simpson jury league.

Yes, Ramos was an instructor, but he was not a lawyer. The supervisor mention is not bullshit. It establishes the severity of the initial chase. The testimony also establishes that at least three other agents were obligated to report the shots. Finally, it was not completely unreasonable to assume that everyone present at the scene knew about the shots. It however was unwise.

25 posted on 02/20/2009 1:00:32 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
No I didn't. I just consider them in the O.J. Simpson jury league.
For that analogy to work, the jury would have had to find reasonable doubt and acquit Ramos and Compean.

Finally, it was not completely unreasonable to assume that everyone present at the scene knew about the shots.
Just somewhere between completely unreasonable and almost brain-dead.

26 posted on 02/20/2009 1:06:25 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
When Ramos didn’t report the shooting (his or Compean’s), he effectively “tampered” with the evidence. Splitting hairs about it doesn’t help your argument.

B.S. The convictions on the "tampering" charges were overturned. You are the hair-splitter. Otherwise, three other agents tampered with evidence and every failure to report shots fired by border patrol agents is a criminal offense and not the administrative error that it presently is.

27 posted on 02/20/2009 1:07:19 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: Badeye
That was then. Its over.

It is not over when you convict your enforcers. Ramos and Compean are not isolated incidents. Other agents have been convicted for doing their jobs. In one case the agent was being attacked by someone using a vehicle. He fired to stop the attack and his round ricocheted and hit a passenger. He was convicted for doing what the agents in the story above were doing. The difference is that an agent was actually hit and the driver was the target and not the vehicle.

28 posted on 02/20/2009 1:12:39 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
The convictions on the tampering were vacated. That doesn't mean that Ramos and Compean did wrong, knew they were doing wrong, and continued to do wrong. They fired their weapons, they picked up their brass, they didn't report what they were supposed to report, and they lied about it. You are the one who is splitting hairs.

Just "doing their jobs," indeed. Excellent job of embarrassing the Border Patrol, guys. Hope you thought about it in prison.

29 posted on 02/20/2009 1:12:59 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
For that analogy to work, the jury would have had to find reasonable doubt and acquit Ramos and Compean.

It is not an analogy. It is a rating. The were mistaken in their judgement.

Just somewhere between completely unreasonable and almost brain-dead.

So you consider the failure to report shots a crime and not an administrative problem as the border patrol does!?

30 posted on 02/20/2009 1:15:36 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
So you consider the failure to report shots a crime and not an administrative problem as the border patrol does!?

I find it somewhat amusing that, after all this time, I know what charges sent Ramos and Compean to prison and you do not.

31 posted on 02/20/2009 1:19:27 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

“Excellent job of embarrassing the Border Patrol, guys.”

As usual, you speak with such authority and yet don’t know what you’re rambling on about.

[snip]Bonner Wants Investigation Into Attorney Who Convicted Border Patrol Agents
T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council believes an investigation should be launched into how U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton convicted the men and whether he should have given immunity to Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, who was shot by one...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2190016/posts

_______
National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers has been in the forefront to free Ramos/Compean.

http://www.nafbpo.org


32 posted on 02/20/2009 1:27:07 PM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925; Foreigners 2008)
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To: 1rudeboy
They fired their weapons, they picked up their brass, they didn't report what they were supposed to report, and they lied about it. You are the one who is splitting hairs.

Again, knowing the facts, you are blatantly lying. Yes they fired their weapons they never denied that. They did not pick up their brass, only Compean picked up part of his brass, Vasquez also picked up some brass. Ramos did not. Ramos and Compean did not explicitly verbally report shots fired to a supervisor, that is true. That is an administrative error. Ramos never lied about the event. His statements on the subject were made in his testimony at the trial. You remain the hair-splitter(and liar).

Just "doing their jobs," indeed. Excellent job of embarrassing the Border Patrol, guys. Hope you thought about it in prison.

I'm not in prison. And, the border patrol(Actually the federal government) doesn't seem to worry much about embarrassment .... Jack Lamar Wolfe, Sipe's attorney in McAllen, Texas, told WND, "Sipe had seven years of his life taken away from him. He went bankrupt, lost his wife and his home, and has been a convicted felon for a long period of that time."
...
In April 2003, the federal district court agreed with Sipe's appeal and granted him a new trial based on assertions that federal prosecutors made misrepresentations and failed to disclose exculpatory evidence.
As in the case of Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, the coyote in Sipe's case was caught in an additional incident of smuggling illegal aliens across the border before the trial began.

33 posted on 02/20/2009 1:28:27 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: 1rudeboy
I know what charges sent Ramos and Compean to prison and you do not.

Besides the fact you are wrong, apparently the reason you feel that you know the charges so well, is that you know so little about the testimony.

34 posted on 02/20/2009 1:30:48 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

Here we go again.... can’t be shootin’ those drug-running, Illegal invaders. Civil rights and all...

Will put you in prison...


35 posted on 02/20/2009 1:34:53 PM PST by TheBattman (Pray for our country....)
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To: AndrewC
Besides the fact you are wrong, apparently the reason you feel that you know the charges so well, is that you know so little about the testimony.

So Ramos and Compean went to prison for violating some administrative guidelines, as you suggest? Did you arrive at that conclusion from your "special" understanding of the testimony? You crack me up. LOL

36 posted on 02/20/2009 1:38:48 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: AndrewC

Each case is unique, and I haven’t seen the facts as I have with R&C.

I’ll take your word for it.

Have a good weekend.


37 posted on 02/20/2009 1:38:57 PM PST by Badeye (There are no 'great moments' in Moderate Political History. Only losses.)
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To: pissant

On the bright side, Johnny Sutton works in Texas.


Is Sutton still on the job? I would have guessed he’d have been relieve of his Ferderal Attorney’s position once Obama was sworn in.


38 posted on 02/20/2009 1:39:15 PM PST by deport
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To: AndrewC

Border patroman BILL JORDAN told an interesting story from many years ago.

A BP agent shot at a smuggler crossing a small footbridge after the smuggler fired two shots at the BP agent. The smuggler then dropped his pistol in the river and fled back into Mexico.

The bureaucrats in the BP decided to persecute this BP agent. They went to the foot bridge to examine the scene when someone in Mexico started shooting at them. They retired to the courthouse.

That night Bill Jordan went to the footbridge to examine it and while doing so he leaned over and a cheap .22 pistol with two shots fired accidentally fellout of his shirt pocket.
Several days later a magnet was dropped into the river to try and recover any evidence. About four or five cheap .22 pistols with two shots fired were recovered.

Case dismissed.


39 posted on 02/20/2009 1:41:43 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: 1rudeboy
So Ramos and Compean went to prison for violating some administrative guidelines, as you suggest?

No that is apparently what you are asserting. I stated that I considered the jury an O.J. Simpson league jury. They made a faulty decision. You keep overlooking that.

Speaking of special view of testimony, you claim that Ramos tampered with evidence because he knew that Compean picked up brass. You have a r eee a l l y special view.

40 posted on 02/20/2009 1:55:04 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

Another “abuse of Border Patrol authority”. Hope these agents have better luck than Ramos and Compean. Since the story lists the victim as a “suspected” drug smuggler these agents are in big trouble. There could have been a mother and her children in the vehicle.


Too little info to determine anything at this time. Apparently the FBI has opened an assualt on a federal officer investigation into the suspected drug smugglers activities according to another article.

The shooting action apparently taken by the agent[s] was after the suspected drug runner ran over the BP agent with his truck. The agent apparently was checked out in an El Paso hospital and no major injuries were found.


41 posted on 02/20/2009 1:55:22 PM PST by deport
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To: AndrewC
Speaking of special view of testimony, you claim that Ramos tampered with evidence because he knew that Compean picked up brass.

That's not a "view of testimony." It's what happened.

I feel badly for Ramos, I really do. But it was his choice to throw his career away. Compean is just a disgrace to the badge.

42 posted on 02/20/2009 1:59:22 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Ha. Good story.

Yet that brings up questions. For instance, in Ramos and Compeans case, why would veteran officers who had never fired (in the case of Compean) their weapons in non-training situations suddenly do so? And the same agents who had never shown any dispensation to do harm to anyone suddenly change their manner of human interaction?

43 posted on 02/20/2009 2:00:35 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: 1rudeboy
That's not a "view of testimony." It's what happened.

It most certainly is not in the testimony. You made that up. Ramos never saw Compean pick up anything. Neither did Yrigoyen nor Mendez who were on the levee and saw Davila as he walked in Mexico.

44 posted on 02/20/2009 2:03:10 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC

And the same agents who had never shown any dispensation to do harm to anyone suddenly change their manner of human interaction?


curious......... Didn’t Ramos have some sort of domestic abuse situation happen a couple of times?


45 posted on 02/20/2009 2:05:03 PM PST by deport
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To: deport
Didn’t Ramos have some sort of domestic abuse situation happen a couple of times?

I think it was alleged, but that information is on the level of the info that Davila always carried a gun, maybe true, but it is not testimony.

46 posted on 02/20/2009 2:10:40 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
I'll repeat this again. Ramos did not report firing his weapon, or hearing Compean fire his. He was supposed to. He knew he was supposed to. He testified to all the above. That is what happened.

And he paid for his mistake with his job, and some time in prison to think about how he should've done things differently.

I'm not making any of this up, and you need to stick to explaining your version of the case to people who are not familiar with it. Of all the BS I hear about this case, what ticks me off the most is people explaining that something didn't happen when the defendants themselves admit in court that it did.

47 posted on 02/20/2009 2:11:38 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: AndrewC

but it is not testimony.


Didn’t say it was testimony as it wasn’t a part of the trial case that convicted Ramos/Compean. But it represents a side of the human regarding the violence potential. I wonder who alledged the domestic abuse?.... His wife?


48 posted on 02/20/2009 2:19:19 PM PST by deport
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To: 1rudeboy
I'll repeat this again. Ramos did not report firing his weapon, or hearing Compean fire his. He was supposed to. He knew he was supposed to. He testified to all the above. That is what happened.

Again, that is not tampering with evidence, that is administrative error. You made this statement....Ramos knew the scene was tampered with, and didn’t report it. ". Which is to what my post 42 refers.

49 posted on 02/20/2009 2:25:03 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: deport
Didn’t say it was testimony as it wasn’t a part of the trial case that convicted Ramos/Compean. But it represents a side of the human regarding the violence potential.

I didn't say you did. But giving any credence to it requires some backing other that just "I heard...". If you really want to know, contact Joe Loya, Ramos' father-in-law. He happens to be a champion for Ramos, so I kinda doubt any really abusive actions on Ramos part towards his wife, but I could be wrong.

50 posted on 02/20/2009 2:31:10 PM PST by AndrewC
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