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Mexico attorney general: We don't need U.S. troops to intervene in drug war
Dallas Morning News ^ | Feb. 25, 2009 | TODD J. GILLMAN

Posted on 02/25/2009 9:19:03 AM PST by AuntB

Mexico’s attorney general said Tuesday he sees no need for U.S. troops to intervene in his country’s war on drug cartels, nor to gear up for a spillover of violence across the border.

U.S. officials view the violence as a potential national security threat, and last month the Bush administration’s homeland security chief, Michael Chertoff, said Washington has drawn up contingency plans for a “surge” of both civilian law enforcement and military assets along the border.

On Tuesday, Gov. Rick Perry demanded a tighter security net from Washington, saying he’s asked the Obama administration for more aircraft and “a thousand more troops” to the border.

“I don’t care whether they’re military troops, or they’re National Guard troops or whether they’re customs agents,” he said during a visit to El Paso with retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, the former U.S. drug czar who warned two months ago that Mexico could soon become a “narco state.”

“I’m concerned,” Perry said, calling the city across the border from El Paso, Ciudad Juárez, “one of the deadliest cities on the North American continent. … Darn tootin’ it concerns us.”

The drug violence has cost more than 6,000 lives in the past 13 months, as drug gangs fight for territory and trafficking routes and battle a Mexican army crackdown. Juárez, a city of 1.3 million, has had almost a third of the killings.

Beheadings of rival gang members have grown more common, and police corruption is widespread.

Medina-Mora said Mexicans remain frustrated with the flow of cash and guns from the U.S. drug trade — $10 billion a year and thousands of weapons, which are illegal in Mexico. He discussed that topic Monday with Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and on Tuesday with U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder.

(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aliens; border; bordercontrol; borderfence; borderpatrol; borders; cartels; drugcartels; drugwarconsequences; illegaaliens; illegalaliens; immigrantlist; immigration; liberaltarians; mexico; military; minutemen; openborders; organizedcrime; perry; rickperry; texas; thankprohibition; warnextdoor; wod; zetas
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At the end of the article, Mexico officials blame all the problem on US:

“These groups easily get into their hands assault rifles and weapons that are coming from the U.S.,” he said, adding that although Mexico respects the rights of Americans under the U.S. Constitution, “the Second Amendment was never meant to arm foreign criminal groups.”

MEXICO'S CITIZENS DESERVE THE 2nd amendment!

1 posted on 02/25/2009 9:19:04 AM PST by AuntB
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To: AuntB

If we had a border policy, it wouldn’t be an issue.

The results of the Chamber of Commerce and Mexican pressure groups have allowed this to happen...

No turning back now, unless we revolt and begin deporting them ourselves.


2 posted on 02/25/2009 9:21:56 AM PST by wac3rd (In the end, we all are Conservative, some just need their lives jolted to realize that fact.)
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To: AuntB

And Mexicans were never meant to easily breech our border to obtain this weapons.

I sure hope we don’t commit any troops para fijación La Problemas De Mexico.


3 posted on 02/25/2009 9:23:33 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: AuntB
“These groups easily get into their hands assault rifles and weapons that are coming from the U.S.,” he said...

Yes, that's the party line in the States as well. Meanwhile the bad guys are duking it out with RPG's and full-auto AK's. It turns out that nobody dumb enough to repeat that line is smart enough to know the difference, or cares to.

4 posted on 02/25/2009 9:24:21 AM PST by Billthedrill
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To: AuntB
"We don't need U.S. troops to intervene in drug war"

This is what happens when weak US leaders ask instead of tell.

5 posted on 02/25/2009 9:24:49 AM PST by SENTINEL (SGT USMC GWI)
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To: AuntB
Mexico’s attorney general said Tuesday he sees no need for U.S. troops to ... to gear up for a spillover of violence across the border.

Sorry Hoss, but we'll make that decision. Unfortunately the Zero in charge will decide to surrender.

6 posted on 02/25/2009 9:25:38 AM PST by SampleMan (Socialism and Liberty are mutually exclusive.)
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To: wac3rd

Let the land owners on our side of the border defend their land and if need be, have the border patrol and National Guard assist them. Perry is a pawn, soon to be replaced by Kay Bailey Hutchinson


7 posted on 02/25/2009 9:25:51 AM PST by shadeaud (Time to smell the roses and not the stench coming from D .C.)
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To: SENTINEL
"We don't need U.S. troops to intervene in drug war"

Then you better damn well take care of the problem yourselves.

8 posted on 02/25/2009 9:26:41 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: AuntB

Build a wall, arm those on the wall.


9 posted on 02/25/2009 9:29:26 AM PST by Kakaze (Exterminate Islamofacism and apologize for nothing.....except not doing it sooner!)
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To: AuntB
Mexico’s attorney general said Tuesday he sees no need for U.S. troops to intervene in his country’s war on drug cartels, nor to gear up for a spillover of violence across the border.

Pretty soon, at the rate things are going, it ain't gonna be your call Senor Attorney General.

10 posted on 02/25/2009 9:30:32 AM PST by dfwgator (1996 2006 2008 - Good Things Come in Threes)
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To: AuntB

So, they were able to hear him above the gunfire and explosions? He must have alltell.


11 posted on 02/25/2009 9:30:42 AM PST by He who knoweth not his name
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To: Kakaze

Just mine the border and be done with it.


12 posted on 02/25/2009 9:31:04 AM PST by SENTINEL (SGT USMC GWI)
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To: AuntB
“...the Second Amendment was never meant to arm foreign or domestic criminals.”

The Second Amendment was never meant to arm criminals foreign or domestic. Mexico's citizens can not own a weapon to defend themselves, only the Military and law enforcement along with druggies and gangs are armed....where is the logic in that? Arm your civilians Attorney General.

13 posted on 02/25/2009 9:32:37 AM PST by yoe
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To: SampleMan
Unfortunately the Zero in charge will decide to surrender.

Decide to surrender? Sadly I see that as a first option among many so-called FReepers who are Liberaltarians and who see the WOD as a failure. So the best option (for them) is to legalize drugs and start taxing the dope.

I wish to God Jim Rob would do a bug zapper thread for liberaltarians.

(Remember the great zot thread that drove away the Rudy-tootie supporters?)

14 posted on 02/25/2009 9:34:50 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: wac3rd

Put in a DMZ on the border and mine it. Tell them it is mined and it is their decision whether to cross the DMZ or not.


15 posted on 02/25/2009 9:36:32 AM PST by RC2
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To: demshateGod

Legalize it and take the profit out of the black market monopoly the cartels currently enjoy via prohibition. Produce drugs here in the US, tax them distribute like alcohol and put some of the WOD money into treatment and education and give the taxpayer the rest back. Then the violence will subside, demand will go down and we can all be adults who determine what we put into our own bodies and face the consequences while enjoying liberty.


16 posted on 02/25/2009 9:36:55 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: AuntB
It may have reassured the Mexican attorney general to learn that American’s are cowards, from the American attorney general.
17 posted on 02/25/2009 9:37:43 AM PST by CarryingOn
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To: AuntB
Mexico needs to execute all the criminals in federal, state and city governments working as employees as an example of all to come just for starters.
18 posted on 02/25/2009 9:39:35 AM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: RC2

Obama WANTS 100,000 new voters who 80% voted Democratic in 2008, do you think he will do ANYTHING to stop AMNESTY? He wants a permanent Marxist society we all have to live in.

POWER is the Liberal game, not compassion, which they espouse.


19 posted on 02/25/2009 9:40:06 AM PST by wac3rd (In the end, we all are Conservative, some just need their lives jolted to realize that fact.)
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To: AuntB

“We don’t need US troops to intervene...”
“...because we are making a great profit from this war, and our own troops are running it just like we want them to”!


20 posted on 02/25/2009 9:42:24 AM PST by whipitgood (Real Americans don't allow socialists to take over their country.)
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To: AuntB
Recommended reading...

21 posted on 02/25/2009 9:42:33 AM PST by BenLurkin (Mornie` utulie`. Mornie` alantie`.)
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To: A CA Guy

“Mexico needs to execute all the criminals in federal, state and city governments working as employees as an example of all to come just for starters.”

It would help if they brought back the death penalty...which they are talking about....instead of sending all their criminals to us.


22 posted on 02/25/2009 9:45:34 AM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925; Foreigners 2008)
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To: TheKidster

Get real.


23 posted on 02/25/2009 9:45:34 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: AuntB

Translation: Mexico will soon need US troops to intervene in the its drug war.


24 posted on 02/25/2009 9:47:51 AM PST by DesertRhino (Dogs earn the title of "man's best friend", Muslims hate dogs,,add that up.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

I do remember there were a lot of Rudybots, then there were none, but what did Robinson do to get rid of them? I missed that.

The Liberaltarians would be great if they were really for liberty. They’re really just for taxing sin.

Uh Oh, I said the word “sin”. That’ll be taken out of context and I’ll be accused of being an Iranian Mullah.


25 posted on 02/25/2009 9:52:09 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod
You're right what we are doing is so obviously successful all other alternatives should be censored and ignored. 40 years and violence, demand are higher than ever. Liberties are relinquished and the police are now driving armored vehicles to people's houses in order to serve no knock warrants where grand mothers get shot to death for being in the wrong house.

I and millions of others believe it is time to get real and take a look at alternatives to prohibition's failure. if it hasn't worked in 40 years it ain't gonna work in 40 more so why waste the money and dilute our constitutional rights? Your fear and drug warrior greed that's why. Drug warriors are addicted to the money and thier supporters are fearmongered into into supporting the great failure.

You say get real I say let go of your fear.

26 posted on 02/25/2009 9:55:07 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: AuntB; BGHater; La Lydia; jafojeffsurf; B.O. Plenty; skeptoid; Yellow Rose of Texas; ...

Ping!

If you want on, or off this S. Texas/Mexico ping list, please FReepMail me.


27 posted on 02/25/2009 10:00:17 AM PST by SwinneySwitch (Mexico - beyond your expectations.)
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To: TheKidster

One of my biggest fears is living under our current government while having the power to regulate and tax drugs. Then they’re not only our nannies, they’re our pushers.

I’m for the states deciding this for themselves and basically putting an end to the ALL the stuff the feds shouldn’t be doing.

This is real. 23 or more states have sovereignty legislation in their respective congresses. Let’s talk about doing this before we go legalizing meth. I don’t know why all you libertarians are fixated on legalization. Why do you think that’s the first step toward liberty?


28 posted on 02/25/2009 10:02:43 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
A a former front line warrior on the WOD, I absolutely agree.

That drugs should be legalized.

You'd have thought we would learn our lesson with Prohibition.

29 posted on 02/25/2009 10:06:48 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: AuntB

This is starting to remind me of the drug-war in Columbia in the 1980s. If you ever read the book “Killing Pablo” by the author of Blackhawk Down... narco-terrorists killed every major presidential & vice-presidential candidate in one election (the equivalent of killing McCain, Romney, Palin, Huckabee, Hillary, Obama & Biden all during the 2008 campaigns), killed or kidnapped half their Supreme Court, took their Supreme Court hostage inside the SC building, blew up at least one passager airliner, had bombs exloding in major population centers daily, and purchased & blackmailed & extorted their way into control of local governments & police forces & national parliament.

If Mexico gets even 1/4 of that, we will have a major crisis on our southwestern states, and if the Feds don’t control it, citizen militias will definitely take extreme measures. The longer-term result will be major groups of heavily-armed and well-organized citizens distrustful & resentful of the govt, and accustomed to taking the law into their own hands and to resorting to armed violence to protect their lives & property.

I’m not advocating anything, just making an educatde prediction. The Feds need to do something, yesterday.


30 posted on 02/25/2009 10:07:02 AM PST by sanchmo
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To: TheKidster
Ditto.
31 posted on 02/25/2009 10:07:45 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: AuntB

Competence? COMPETENCE? We doan need no feelthy, steenkin’ competence.


32 posted on 02/25/2009 10:08:32 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: demshateGod; TheKidster
This.... This is the Great Zot thread.

Will FR embrace socialism to make way for Rudy Giuliani as a Republican presidential candidate?
Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:42:25 PM · by Jim Robinson · 18,440 replies · 498,163+ views

Kidster: My remarks back in Post # 14? They apply to you. I agree with demshateGod. You should Get Real.

You Liberaltarians argue for a smaller government. Yet you are here advocating that we abandon the ideals that made America great. That we legalize dope. Which would create an enormous need for more prisons and more hospitals to house the millions of addicts that will appear overnight.

Then you call for the legalization of this dope? Do you listen to yourself? With higher taxes comes bigger govermnent. Maybe you want Obama to appoint a Drug Czar? Maybe the next stimulus package could earmark 100 billion dollars for the US drug industry?

Apart from Liberaltarians having no moral conscience towards illegal drugs, they also are hypocrites.

33 posted on 02/25/2009 10:11:42 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: starlifter

You fought in the WOD?

Yet now you are a surender-monkey?

Just because YOU lost the battle does not mean America should lose the war.

And... Prohibition and the WOD are two different issues.


34 posted on 02/25/2009 10:14:02 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: demshateGod
I would be happy to make this a states' rights issue and allow local populations to decide for themselves. It's an alternative much more attractive than what we are currently doing.

The reason people want drugs legalized is for a number of reasons. Some for selfish reasons, they don't want to be criminals anymore. Others see the erosion of our constitutional rights for the sake of giving greater police power to the government to combat drug use and distribution. We want to stop it, the 4th amendment has been thrown out and it's time to reassert this GOD given right. Others see the waste of taxpayer money and the incredible abuse of power and corruption this money along with the profits from the drug trade creates. They want thier money back because interdiction hasn't done anything to stem the tide nor decrease consumption. Finally people see the violence created by the goverment's unintentional (maybe) propping up of a black market monopoly and are tired of it, knowing it's unnecessary.

Libertarians aren't fixated on drug use they are fixated on the problems caused by prohibition and see that some other options offer good solutions to solve the problems from drug abuse and other associated troubles.

35 posted on 02/25/2009 10:14:11 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
You made my day:

“Yet you are here advocating that we abandon the ideals that made America great. That we legalize dope.”

I must have been sick the day they covered that in high school.

Thanks for a good laugh - we don't get enough of them.

36 posted on 02/25/2009 10:17:06 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Yes, I SINGLE HANDEDLY lost the battle. All by my lonesome. Just me. No one else. Yup.

Sure would like to know how Prohibition and the WOD are different issues.

Surrender has two r’s.


37 posted on 02/25/2009 10:20:21 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: AuntB

All this.. and still no border wall.


38 posted on 02/25/2009 10:24:13 AM PST by ScottinVA (Make my world PURRRFECT, Lord Obama!)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Thanks for the link.


39 posted on 02/25/2009 10:24:15 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
Your assumption that we'd have millions of addicts overnight is a straw man and you know it. If people want to do drugs they do today. Is the illegal nature of pot the only reason why you and your family don't do it? Is that all that's stopping your kids from smoking crack? This is where your fear blares out like a neon sign. People decide not to do drugs for many reasons outside of the legality of it. Those same people won't change just becasue the law does. You should trust the American people more. Most people don't do drugs because of the negative consequences of addiction, getting in trouble with the law is only a small part of that. Legalizing drugs would free up prison cells for violent offenders that are currently held up by people who arent' violent and got caught up in mandatory minimum sentences.

The govt. taxes all commodities, they tax milk, they tax cars and they tax booze. You can't sell something retail without taxes being paid and collected. That isn't going to change. The argument that libertarians are hypocrites because they say to tax narcotics is also a straw man. It's just common sense that they'd be taxed if sold retail. Taxes suck and we have too many but in this case at least the money could be used for specific purposes to educate about addiction and help with treatment. If you don't want to contribute to that then don't buy any drugs. Drug users would be funding thier own support system.

You can't legislate morality, people must be given the freedom to do pursue happiness as long as they don't hurt or defruad others. By your argument we should be regulating TV more closely, outlawing many magazines and jailing those who sell sex toys. All these things have immorality surrounding them but I don't hear you arguing for any of this. Why not, because you know that we can't legislate morality outside of protecting people from fraud or assault. This is where drug warriors' hypocrisy is evident. They only want to legislate morality when it comes to some drugs and not much else (unless they are just a nanny stater). What about alcohol? It's consumption leads many to debauchery and is considered immoral do you want to bring back that prohibition as well?

40 posted on 02/25/2009 10:30:31 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

That’s hilarious. I’m looking at the posts and all the jokers who defended Rudy have been banned.


41 posted on 02/25/2009 10:30:40 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: TheKidster
What about alcohol? It's consumption leads many to debauchery and is considered immoral do you want to bring back that prohibition as well?

The reason that pot is illegal in the first place is because of the alcohol industry lobby.

42 posted on 02/25/2009 10:32:48 AM PST by dfwgator (1996 2006 2008 - Good Things Come in Threes)
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To: demshateGod; Jim Robinson

Oh.. It was a great thread!

Over 18,000 replies.

You could spend days looking at the replies. Somewhere in that thread FReepers began a list of other FReepers who were zapped (banned).

Many were long time FReepers. Some were just newbies. It was fun in a way. But sorta sad.

And I repeat. I’ve even pinging the Big Kahuna - Jim Robinson should make a clear statement and declaration against Libertarians.


43 posted on 02/25/2009 10:38:23 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: AuntB
All we need is a well armed militia on our side of the border and all problems solved.
44 posted on 02/25/2009 10:44:10 AM PST by JamesA (He who hesitates is lost.)
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To: TheKidster

A straw man?

Do you deny the fact that our prisons are filled with inmates who are dug users and abusers? And that while they are in prison for crimes other than possession, they are still violent, dangerous and unproductive criminals non-the-less?

And their drug use is the catalyst that led them to prison. And you think that opening the door to millions of more Americans will NOT lead them to prison also?

You - sir - are stoned.

And then if you win and we legalize drugs. And we tax them. You actually want the state to profit on the misery and suffering of millions of addicts? If you are not stoned, then you have no heart - no conscience.

You say I “should trust the American people more”? Great. OK. And I suppose you too also trust the millions of Obamabots who elected Socialism in as opposed to Capitalism.

No Thanks. I do not trust these idiots. And nor do I trust the even bigger idiots in office. I shudder to think what a disaster our politicians would make out of the legalization of deadly drugs.

You state “You can’t legislate morality”. Great. Does that also include the moral beliefs and values of the millions of muslims who want to kill us? Are you advocating that in addition to surrendering on the WOD, we should also surrender in the WOT?

Bugger off. I’m done arguing with you liberals.


45 posted on 02/25/2009 10:49:14 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: TheKidster; Responsibility2nd
There is no need to legalize all drugs. These drug cartels derive the lion's share of their income from marijuana. The ONDCP recently estimated that the cartels in Mexico are grossing about $13,8 billion on drugs bound for the U.S., about $8.6 billion, about 62%, is coming from marijuana alone.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/022208dnintdrugs.3a98bb0.html

Medina-Mora was right when he said that there is little hope of eradicating the drug trade and ending the violence entirely as long as the demand for drugs persists. He says said the best they could hope to do was fragment and diminish “the power that these criminal groups have accumulated throughout the years, and transform it from a national security problem …to a police problem, to a public security problem.” He's right about that too. Just look at Colombia. The violence has diminished considerably. The threat to the government from drug cartels has diminished considerably, yet the cocaine still flows from Colombia just as it did before. All that has happened is that the Colombian cartels have allowed the Mexicans to take over distribution and let them fight over all of that. The Colombians focus on production in Colombia, Peru and Bolivia, and sell it to the Mexicans and let them sort out who makes the smuggling and distribution profits.

The USDOJ in their 2009 Drug Threat Assessment said that Mexicans produced about 15,500 metric tons of marijuana in 2007 and most of it came here. That is a staggering amount. It's 15.5 billion grams of marijuana and most of it came here. If you add up all the cocaine, meth and heroin they smuggle in, according to our government the total will be in the hundreds of metric tons, not thousands. It is their cash cow. In the article I linked you to above you will see where the head of the ONDCP, John Walters, said “marijuana, not heroin or cocaine, is the ‘bread and butter,’ ‘the center of gravity’ for Mexican drug cartels that every year smuggle tons of it through the porous U.S.-Mexico border.”

Americans consume more marijuana than all other illegal drugs combined. It is easily available everywhere in this country. We couldn't make it much more easily available. It is also cheap on a per use basis, cheaper than beer in most cases. Despite all our best efforts we can't make this stuff hard to find or too expensive to buy. We are stopping precious few from using it with our laws. All we are doing is blowing a fortune trying in vain to keep up the ban and enriching organized crime to the tune of many billions of dollars a year and causing lots of other problems along the way. It is time to regulate the production and sales of marijuana, take most of the money from these drug cartels and let law abiding tax paying Americans make it.

If we only legalize marijuana there will still be cartels and there will still be an illegal drug trade, no doubt about that. But the cartels will have far less money to work with and the black market for drugs will shrink down to something much more manageable since most of the black market for drugs is just a black market for marijuana. The cartels will lose most of their income and it will be hard for them to move their much more dangerous drugs because there won't be all the countless marijuana sellers at the bottom end up the distribution chains who will often sell the the hard stuff too. This will reduce the exposure of marijuana smokers to drugs like cocaine and meth and heroin because licensed marijuana retailers will be no more likely than liquor stores to offer these other drugs. Organized crime and the black market in general will be smaller and easier to contain. We should have done this a long time ago.

46 posted on 02/25/2009 10:52:29 AM PST by SmallGovRepub
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To: Responsibility2nd
Bugger off. I’m done arguing with you liberals.

Here it is the admission to loss. Whenever you can't find a cogent argument to defend your position you revert to vulgarism. I'm not a liberal I'm a conservative, I won't call you a name because I have more respect than that. YOU LOSE, and you'll continue to lose as long as you defend the WOD and live in fear. I kinda feel sorry for you.

47 posted on 02/25/2009 10:54:03 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: SmallGovRepub

I agree this is a good option rather than prohibition and interdiction.


48 posted on 02/25/2009 10:57:19 AM PST by TheKidster (you can only trust government to grow, consolidate power and infringe upon your liberties.)
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To: AuntB

Change the ROE give the Border Patrol their own authority to make a decision on the spot instead of asking a supervisor.


49 posted on 02/25/2009 11:06:47 AM PST by Rappini ("Pro deo et Patria.)
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To: TheKidster

I insult you. I call you names. All in an attempt to have you realize the heartlessness of your Godless positions.

But I should have known better. Reasoning with facts - wont work.

And getting hostile - wont work.

I guess just as America will learn the hard way that electing Obama and endorsing Socialism will lead to failure - and if you get your wish - and someday soon we will legalize drugs, I’ll be here to say “I told you so” when the SHTF.

So go ahead and feel sorry for me. OK by me. But for now... my sides winning. And while I’m sorry for the insults, I’m not sorry we’re still fighting the WOD.


50 posted on 02/25/2009 11:07:32 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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