Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Motive Mongering: Does It Belong in Science?
CEH ^ | February 26, 2009

Posted on 02/26/2009 8:22:42 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-88 next last

1 posted on 02/26/2009 8:22:42 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

2 posted on 02/26/2009 8:23:31 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
"the reference to quantum physics in support of free will"

I'm rather skeptical of that myself. But I have to wonder, does she then believe there is no such thing as free will? Has she considered the moral implications of that?
3 posted on 02/26/2009 8:25:49 AM PST by kc8ukw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kc8ukw

The Temple of Darwinistic Materialism likes the idea of no free will. They prefer to think we are purely stimulus-response vehicles.


4 posted on 02/26/2009 8:29:07 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

5 posted on 02/26/2009 8:29:36 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steve-b

Then don’t eat it. It’s a free country (while it lasts).


6 posted on 02/26/2009 8:30:24 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: kc8ukw

Why would she consider moral implications when she, as an Ahiest, denies the existence of absolute good and evil? To Athiests, morality is simply a convenience, an arbitrary set of rules to make society work better, whatever that means.


7 posted on 02/26/2009 8:32:52 AM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: steve-b

I prefer Taylor Ham.


8 posted on 02/26/2009 8:35:17 AM PST by svcw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher
Good question. Another question: can atheist be moral? They certainly can be legal, maybe even ethical but moral?
9 posted on 02/26/2009 8:36:50 AM PST by svcw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher

To Athiests, morality is simply a convenience, an arbitrary set of rules to make society work bet
______

Now I’m confused. I’ve read on this forum, time and time again, that atheism, in denying absolute truth, made it OK for us to have as much sex as we wanted. Now you’re telling me that it’s not about sex, but about control (making society work better), which, from where I sit, is one of the purposes of man made religion (which I kind of suspect is the only kind).


10 posted on 02/26/2009 8:42:22 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: dmz

I am confused. When was it posted that people of faith don’t/can’t have sex. You got it wrong buddy, sex is a gift from God, and what a gift it is!!! wooohooo


11 posted on 02/26/2009 8:48:28 AM PST by svcw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: svcw

When was it posted that people of faith don’t/can’t have sex.
______

With multiple partners outside the marriage bond? Wow. Christianity has changed!


12 posted on 02/26/2009 8:54:08 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

She should know the difference between science and psychology.;)


13 posted on 02/26/2009 8:55:40 AM PST by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
In addition, Gefter listed concepts and emphases that she felt betray a hidden agenda: an emphasis on complex molecular machines,

The "Inner Life of the Cell" from the movie Expelled

14 posted on 02/26/2009 9:00:05 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (Sarah Palin "The Iron Lady of the North")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dmz

I did not say that. But then again we now know where your thoughts/assumptions lie. tsk tsk


15 posted on 02/26/2009 9:00:11 AM PST by svcw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: dmz

I’m of the belief that most atheists embrace atheism because they refuse to accept the consequences of their actions... In a way, they are “denying the judge”.

I also suspect that many atheists are the kind of people who may have gotten away with some really horrible crime like kidnapping a young child and murdering her but where never brought to justice. They hide what feelings of guilt they have with a pretentious “there is no god” rationalizing.

Of course, there are those who simply don’t believe in a god of any kind - I got no beef with them but the child killers need to be hunted down wherever they are hiding - even if they happen to be teaching “evolutionary biology” in some “prestigious” university where the concept of global warming is, I apologize for bringing this up in a thread dedicated to atheism, treated as gospel.


16 posted on 02/26/2009 9:03:20 AM PST by Professor_Leonide (I said to the young man who showed me a photo, "Who can ever be sure what is behind a mask?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: kc8ukw
"the reference to quantum physics in support of free will"

I'm rather skeptical of that myself. But I have to wonder, does she then believe there is no such thing as free will? Has she considered the moral implications of that?

Quantum Physics has essentially refuted the Newtonian idea "Determinism". The universe is now excepted as "Indeterminate". It has theological and philosophical implications for many people.

"God does not play dice with the universe"

17 posted on 02/26/2009 9:18:18 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (Sarah Palin "The Iron Lady of the North")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

See, I’m not sure about that. I don’t know what you’re background is - I’m a Ph.D. student in physics. And it seems to me, as well as to other physicists I’ve discussed the issue with, that quantum mechanics is still deterministic, it’s just probabalitically deterministic rather than absolutely deterministic. You may no longer be able to say “that electron is here,” but you can still say “there is an 80% chance that electron is here, and a 20% chance that it’s over there.” You can still make predictions. If you looked at 1000 such electrons, you would be puzzled if something other than ~800 were here, and ~200 were over there. QM is still deterministic.


18 posted on 02/26/2009 9:32:39 AM PST by kc8ukw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: kc8ukw
And it seems to me, as well as to other physicists I’ve discussed the issue with, that quantum mechanics is still deterministic, it’s just probabalitically deterministic rather than absolutely deterministic.

If you stick to a 100% naturalistic explanation then it is "indeterminate". But if you bring in "probabalitically deterministic" you open the door to theological explanations.

I recall a physicist saying "yes... the universe is ruled by chance, but God runs the Casino".

19 posted on 02/26/2009 9:44:48 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (Sarah Palin "The Iron Lady of the North")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
I recall a physicist saying "yes... the universe is ruled based on chance, but God runs the Casino".
20 posted on 02/26/2009 9:50:01 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (Sarah Palin "The Iron Lady of the North")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
“It is crucial to the public’s intellectual health to know when science really is science. Those with a religious agenda will continue to disguise their true views in their effort to win supporters, so please read between the lines.”...

That's like global warming where tree hugging socialist Luddite scum vermin hide their agenda with dubious theory.

21 posted on 02/26/2009 9:51:39 AM PST by Anti-Bubba182
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

She didn’t include a “How to Spot an Atheist Agenda” chapter.

I wonder why that is.


22 posted on 02/26/2009 9:59:58 AM PST by cookcounty ("We'll post bills on the internet........", --excerpt from the Vast Collection of Obama Lies.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Professor_Leonide
I also suspect that many atheists are the kind of people who may have gotten away with some really horrible crime like kidnapping a young child and murdering her but where never brought to justice.

Wow. That is some kind of major leap. A child rapist/killer is not an atheist, he is a psychopath. Huge difference.

I shudder to think what horrible crimes you think agnostics such as myself have committed.

23 posted on 02/26/2009 10:18:00 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
If you stick to a 100% naturalistic explanation then it is "indeterminate". But if you bring in "probabalitically deterministic" you open the door to theological explanations.

Perhaps the universe is superdeterministic. That's a way around quantum probabilities, and information getting around at superluminal speeds. But it's not a very appealing idea.
24 posted on 02/26/2009 10:18:31 AM PST by ZX12R
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: dmz

As long as you doubt for the sake of doubt, and not to deny the judge, which is really just a very primitive human emotion, then you’re A-OK with me.

Athiests who are atheists simply to deny the judge or claim no wrongdoing, those fools really need to evolve.


25 posted on 02/26/2009 10:19:35 AM PST by Professor_Leonide (I said to the young man who showed me a photo, "Who can ever be sure what is behind a mask?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: dmz

Where did I say anything about sex? Morality goes far beyond that. It is telling though that you think morality necessarily means sexual morality.

Heck, for an Athiest, making society “work better” could mean complete sexual carte blanche, as in San Francisco. Morality to Athiests is completely arbitrary so they can have anything their little hearts desire.


26 posted on 02/26/2009 10:21:32 AM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher
Why would she consider moral implications when she, as an Ahiest, denies the existence of absolute good and evil? To Athiests, morality is simply a convenience, an arbitrary set of rules to make society work better, whatever that means.

I can't access the article from here. Does it state that she is an atheist?

27 posted on 02/26/2009 10:23:51 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
I was researching this topic and bumped into this.

Just FYI for those who are interested.

28 posted on 02/26/2009 10:31:03 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Professor_Leonide; dmz
I also suspect that many atheists are the kind of people who may have gotten away with some really horrible crime like kidnapping a young child and murdering her but where never brought to justice. . . [T]he child killers need to be hunted down wherever they are hiding - even if they happen to be teaching “evolutionary biology” in some “prestigious” university

Actually, Professor Leonide, you don't need to spend much time scrutinizing the professoriate at prestigious universities. They're not exactly notorious for child rape and murder. You're much more likely to find your culprits amongst protestant and catholic clergy.

29 posted on 02/26/2009 11:14:49 AM PST by atlaw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: dmz
I shudder to think what horrible crimes you think agnostics such as myself have committed

I don't worry nearly as much about what you may have committed, but what you might not object to, under the guise of science.

30 posted on 02/26/2009 11:18:42 AM PST by itsahoot (We will have world government. Whether by conquest or consent. Looks like that question is answered)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: atlaw
You're much more likely to find your culprits amongst protestant and catholic clergy.

You wish.

31 posted on 02/26/2009 11:25:05 AM PST by itsahoot (We will have world government. Whether by conquest or consent. Looks like that question is answered)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher

Where did I say anything about sex? Morality goes far beyond that. It is telling though that you think morality necessarily means sexual morality.
______

Where did I suggest that you did? It is telling that you seem unable to read for comprehension.


32 posted on 02/26/2009 11:25:15 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: dmz
Where did I suggest that you did?

Right here.

Now you’re telling me that it’s not about sex, but about control (making society work better)

33 posted on 02/26/2009 11:32:00 AM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic
I can't access the article from here. Does it state that she is an atheist?

It doesn't, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts she is. However, mostly I brought in "Athiest" to get the moral discussion going.

34 posted on 02/26/2009 11:37:40 AM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher

As I said previously, you are quite comprehension challenged.

I guess this sentence “I’ve read on this forum, time and time again, that atheism, in denying absolute truth, made it OK for us to have as much sex as we wanted.”

Do you get the reference to others now?

About you, I said “Now you’re telling me that it’s not about sex, but about control”

So, as you can see, I mentioned specifically that you did NOT say it was about sex, but about control.

I find it amazing that I have to spell it out for you in such gruesome detail.


35 posted on 02/26/2009 11:40:06 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: dmz
As I said previously, you are quite comprehension challenged. I guess this sentence “I’ve read on this forum, time and time again, that atheism, in denying absolute truth, made it OK for us to have as much sex as we wanted.” Do you get the reference to others now? About you, I said “Now you’re telling me that it’s not about sex, but about control” So, as you can see, I mentioned specifically that you did NOT say it was about sex, but about control. I find it amazing that I have to spell it out for you in such gruesome detail.

LOL! You answered my post specifically but somehow I became the "forum." I never mentioned sex in my post, you did, you raised the subject and attached it to morality. It is very telling that you are so defensive and so far off base on this one, stretching things far beyond what is reasonable to try and absolve your faux pas. However, you are entertaining.

36 posted on 02/26/2009 11:51:37 AM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: itsahoot

I wish? It’s a sad fact, that’s all. And if you are going to contend that university biology professors as a class have any kind of comparable record, I’d like to see lists and analyses similar to those I linked.


37 posted on 02/26/2009 11:53:53 AM PST by atlaw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher

I gotcha.

You were confused because you thought I was attributing comments to you, when in actuality I was comparing your comments to comments made by others.

You only became the forum in your own mind.


38 posted on 02/26/2009 11:54:30 AM PST by dmz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher; GodGunsGuts
It doesn't, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts she is. However, mostly I brought in "Athiest" to get the moral discussion going.

Not the stuff of honest debate, IMHO.

39 posted on 02/26/2009 11:57:35 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: atlaw
...the professoriate at prestigious universities. They're not exactly notorious for child rape and murder. You're much more likely to find your culprits amongst protestant and catholic clergy.

That would be trivially true, due to the fact that there are not very many children who attend prestigious universities. Criminals tend to gravitate to where their potential victims are. So I wonder what the per capita ratio would be of, say, government screwl teacher sex crimes to clergy sex crimes.

Cordially,

40 posted on 02/26/2009 11:59:46 AM PST by Diamond
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

Prov 16:33 The dice are cast into the lap, but every result is from the Lord.

With that being said, why do you suppose Creationists have such a bugaboo about chance? Most assume that if there is any element of chance involved that means that God is not in control, which is not scriptural, and truth be told, quite idiotic.


41 posted on 02/26/2009 12:02:06 PM PST by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic
Not the stuff of honest debate, IMHO.

Well, technically I suppose. I guess I could have said "the article doesn't say but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the woman is an athiest so why should she be concerned about morality......." That too would have achieved the goal of getting an athiest/morality discussion going, and, met the "honest debate" standard. Or, more specifically, the introduction into the debate would have met the standard.

42 posted on 02/26/2009 12:09:48 PM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Diamond
That would be trivially true, due to the fact that there are not very many children who attend prestigious universities. Criminals tend to gravitate to where their potential victims are.

Precisely.

So I wonder what the per capita ratio would be of, say, government screwl teacher sex crimes to clergy sex crimes.

I have no idea, but it would certainly be intersting to find out.

43 posted on 02/26/2009 12:12:06 PM PST by atlaw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher
Well, technically I suppose. I guess I could have said "the article doesn't say but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the woman is an athiest so why should she be concerned about morality......." That too would have achieved the goal of getting an athiest/morality discussion going, and, met the "honest debate" standard. Or, more specifically, the introduction into the debate would have met the standard.

Intentionally trying to take the discussion off topic isn't a particularly honest tactic, either. IMHO.

44 posted on 02/26/2009 12:40:57 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: allmendream
With that being said, why do you suppose Creationists have such a bugaboo about chance? Most assume that if there is any element of chance involved that means that God is not in control, which is not scriptural, and truth be told, quite idiotic.

The theological debate between Free Will and Predestination has been around for centuries.

C.S. Lewis has a chapter on the subject. And a book Entitled "Free Will" by Thomas Pink is very good. And then there was the TULIP Convention around the time of The Reformation or shortly thereafter.

Essentially the Protestants adopted Predestination contained in Calvin's five points and the Roman Catholics adopted Freewill.


45 posted on 02/26/2009 12:58:05 PM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (Sarah Palin "The Iron Lady of the North")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic
Intentionally trying to take the discussion off topic isn't a particularly honest tactic, either. IMHO

Well excuuuuuuussssse meeeeeeee!

All kidding aside, keep in mind that my first post was to #3 in which the issue of morality was raised. Therefore I was "on topic" with respect to that post.

46 posted on 02/26/2009 1:06:52 PM PST by HerrBlucher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


47 posted on 02/26/2009 1:10:00 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: HerrBlucher
All kidding aside, keep in mind that my first post was to #3 in which the issue of morality was raised. Therefore I was "on topic" with respect to that post.

Okay. But is the article about the immorality of atheists? Don't forget that the subject of discussion is the article.

48 posted on 02/26/2009 1:20:28 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: svcw
Good question. Another question: can atheist be moral? They certainly can be legal, maybe even ethical but moral?

SOCRATES: Then try to show me in this way what part of the just is holiness, so that we may tell Meletus to cease from wronging me, and to give up prosecuting me for irreligion, because we have adequately learned from you piety and religion, and the reverse. - The Euthyphro

49 posted on 02/26/2009 3:07:03 PM PST by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
Bottom line: “It is crucial to the public’s intellectual health to know when science really is science. Those with a religious agenda will continue to disguise their true views in their effort to win supporters, so please read between the lines.”...

Those with an agenda will disguise their true views using science as the smokescreen.

Recognizing when science is really science can only help.

50 posted on 02/26/2009 4:48:30 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-88 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson