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1 dead in Illinois Church Shooting
Yahoo & AP ^ | 3/8/09 | JIM SUHR

Posted on 03/08/2009 10:38:10 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta

MARYVILLE, Ill. – Illinois state police say a man has shot a pastor to death and injured others at an church during a service in the community of Maryville.

Illinois Master Trooper Ralph Timmins says the man walked down the aisle during the early Sunday service at First Baptist Church in Maryville.

He said the man exchanged words with pastor Fred Winters and then pulled out a .45-caliber handgun.

Timmins said the man fatally shot Winters once before the gun jammed, then pulled out a knife and wounded himself.

Churchgoers tried to subdue the attacker and two of them suffered minor injuries.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Illinois
KEYWORDS: banglist; churchshooting; fredwinters; maryville; sedlacek
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1 posted on 03/08/2009 10:38:10 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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Fred Winters, Senior Pastor Of First Baptist Church in Maryville, has been killed.

2 posted on 03/08/2009 10:41:44 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

picture of perp?


3 posted on 03/08/2009 10:42:11 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Illinois is still a no-issue state, right? (As opposed to may-issue or shall-issue.)


4 posted on 03/08/2009 10:42:18 AM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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A prayer service will be held tonight at 6:00pm, March 8, 2009, at Metro Community Chuch in Edwardsville, IL.


5 posted on 03/08/2009 10:42:32 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Muzzie?


6 posted on 03/08/2009 10:42:49 AM PDT by Senormechanico
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Motive ?


7 posted on 03/08/2009 10:43:16 AM PDT by libh8er
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To: squarebarb

The gunman is unknown yet...


8 posted on 03/08/2009 10:43:55 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Very sad. The earlier stories said that members of the congregation knifed him. This story makes more sense.

He leaves a wife and two lovely daughters.


9 posted on 03/08/2009 10:44:26 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

There’s a photo of the Pastor and his family at

http://www.fbmaryville.org/aboutus/welcome.cfm

but the website now seems to be down. Maybe too many people trying to visit it.

God rest his soul.


10 posted on 03/08/2009 10:48:16 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Pulled out a knife and wounded himself, after the gun jammed?

Intended murder-suicide. Not described as a member of the church, and I’m very certain he would have been identified as such, had he been.

Either the shooter was completely delusional, or it was personal.


11 posted on 03/08/2009 10:48:35 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: coloradan

We’ve come to the point in this country where churches need security...


12 posted on 03/08/2009 10:48:56 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Cicero

I couldn’t get on that website either...


13 posted on 03/08/2009 10:49:43 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

RIP.


14 posted on 03/08/2009 10:53:28 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta
We’ve come to the point in this country where churches need security...

The media and the schools have done all they can to make Christianity responsible for everything evil in our country.

15 posted on 03/08/2009 10:54:27 AM PDT by Taxbilly
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To: Dr. Scarpetta
I.....
I'm......
Speechless........

Prayers up...

16 posted on 03/08/2009 10:54:37 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (Warning! This Is A Subliminal Tagline! Read it at your own risk!(Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: RegulatorCountry
Either the shooter was completely delusional, or it was personal.

A woman in the next county to me walked into her church and killed the secretary because she thought the minister and congregation paid too much attention to the woman. She was completely delusional and is serving a life sentence.

17 posted on 03/08/2009 10:55:40 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

We’ve come to the point in this country where
you’ll have to carry every where you go...
...including church.


18 posted on 03/08/2009 10:58:52 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Communism is Socialism with a gun to your head.)
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To: Markos33

“Master Trooper Ralph Timmins says the man walked down the aisle during the service, exchanged words with the pastor, then drew a .45-caliber handgun and fired.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-08-church-shooting_N.htm


19 posted on 03/08/2009 11:00:35 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: squarebarb

Agreed.


20 posted on 03/08/2009 11:03:14 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

I read about that here on FR. Pitiful. The woman sounded as if she just quietly slipped into paranoid delusion, and it didn’t draw enough attention until it was too late, since she lived alone.


21 posted on 03/08/2009 11:03:39 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Is this a possible motive?

From:

http://www.madisonrecord.com/news/127236-gotv-and-the-pulpit

(Photo of Rev. Fred Winters to the right of the article.)

Some area clergy are becoming less shy about taking a stand on lightning rod issues—abortion and same sex marriage—carefully avoiding blatant endorsements of political candidates.

Without telling parishioners whom they should vote for, Pastor Rick Hufton of Faith Family Church in Swansea, did tell his flock Sunday to vote for pro life and anti-same-sex marriage candidates.

“There, I said,” Hufton said.

Forbidden from endorsing candidates lest a church lose its precious tax exempt status, a pastor’s message, veiled or not, carries weight.


22 posted on 03/08/2009 11:06:52 AM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: squarebarb

“picture of perp?”

I’m guessing that nobody whipped out their cell phone to get one. Not gonna have one until police release an identity.


23 posted on 03/08/2009 11:08:05 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Texas Fossil

Could be...

We’ll know soon enough.


24 posted on 03/08/2009 11:08:39 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: gracesdad
I’m guessing that nobody whipped out their cell phone to get one

Churches ask you to turn off your cell phone. Lately I've just been leaving mine in the car, but maybe that's not a good idea...

25 posted on 03/08/2009 11:13:31 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Texas Fossil

From the article”

“While cultural and moral issues will be the focus of a pre-election sermon, the Rev. Fred Winters, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Maryville, is worried about other topical election issues, such as tort reform.”

You think he was shot by a deranged lawyer?


26 posted on 03/08/2009 11:13:56 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Senormechanico

None of the more recent church shootings have been by Muslims.


27 posted on 03/08/2009 11:14:55 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: gracesdad

Doubt it. Have no real knowledge of the area, but found it interesting that he was an outspoken Christian Pastor.

The Left cannot stand them.

Look at what they did to Sarah Palin’s Church after the Election. That was no accident, nor was it a local that did it.

I doubt it was a lawyer.


28 posted on 03/08/2009 11:17:26 AM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: gracesdad

This may amplify what we previously posted.

Winters-

“I believe there are under-the-radar issues that are hard to address,” said Winters. “I’m very concerned about doctors leaving Madison County. We need to be informed.”

Winters said that even if he were allowed to endorse certain candidates, he wouldn’t. “It’s not something I would do,” he said.

But he will delve into God’s view of marriage and abortion, believing that the church has an obligation to give direction to its people.

“Not merely this is how to vote, but getting people to think what the issues are,” he said. “We definitely have an obligation to protect the church.”

Citing the book of Romans, Winters said Christians who don’t vote are “disobedient.”


29 posted on 03/08/2009 11:21:04 AM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: Texas Fossil

But it was another pastor who was the REAL outspoken one. I really haven’t heard of an outbreak of liberals shooting up churches. One of the last ones in fact, was by some nut who claimed he was upset about the church’s “liberal teachings.”


30 posted on 03/08/2009 11:23:30 AM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

“Lately I’ve just been leaving mine in the car, but maybe that’s not a good idea...”

No, it’s not. I never leave mine in the car at church.

And granted someone carrying a concealed weapon might not of been able to stop this guy from shooting the pastor but if the gun hadn’t jammed, there would possibly be more dead. Someone with a weapon of their own would save lives.


31 posted on 03/08/2009 11:27:28 AM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Listed below Fred Winters Picture:

(L to R) James Lewis, executive director of East St. Louis Board of Elections Commission; Doris Gray Jones, vice president of the Urban League; Terrie Holder, director of New Spirit and the Rev. Johnny Scott, NAACP chapter president and pastor of Antioch Baptist Church in Venice.

http://www.madisonrecord.com/news/127236-gotv-and-the-pulpit

32 posted on 03/08/2009 11:27:32 AM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Sitting in a church with my back to the door scares the heebee jeebies out of me.


33 posted on 03/08/2009 11:27:57 AM PDT by peggybac ("A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own.")
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To: peggybac

I hear you...


34 posted on 03/08/2009 11:29:33 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

I went there earlier, and saw the photo of him, his wife, and his two daughters, in a country setting. Absolutely beautiful family.

The photo is linked on an earlier thread, but of course it can’t be seen while the site is closed.

I think they must have shut down the website because of too many visitors.


35 posted on 03/08/2009 11:48:08 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta
Jamming a .45Auto on the first shot suggests to me that it may well be the only time the shooter has ever fired the pistol. Newbies often "stove pipe" the ejection by failing to have a firm grip. The carnage might have been worse with an experienced shooter.
36 posted on 03/08/2009 11:50:47 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Markos33
It was common for churches in Texas to be robbed of the Sunday offering. That ended when conceal carry was permitted in church.
37 posted on 03/08/2009 11:52:12 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: squarebarb
The gunman and one victim, 39-year-old Terry Bullard, were being treated at St. Louis University Hospital, said spokeswoman Laura Keller. Bullard underwent surgery for stab wounds and was in serious condition, she said.

Keller said the gunman was undergoing surgery early Sunday afternoon but could not provide his name, condition, or type of injuries.

Funny they have no "privacy" issues with releasing the name of one of the victims, but the same hospital "could not provide" the name, condition or type of injuries for the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator of course.

Generally arrests are public record. Why not release his name and picture from his driver's license, assuming he has one?

38 posted on 03/08/2009 12:19:55 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

“Funny they have no “privacy” issues with releasing the name of one of the victims, “

It simply means the victim or his family has given permission. Notice that not all of the victim names have been published.


39 posted on 03/08/2009 12:25:00 PM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

My home church has had a security team for the past three years. “gentle as doves...crafty as serpents”


40 posted on 03/08/2009 12:26:39 PM PDT by PeteePie (Antique firearms - still deadly after all these years)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta
Notice in that story the account of the lay minister, who likely was there, with that of the "Master Trooper", who probably was not. The lay minister says the pastor was shot in the heart and neck, the trooper says he was only shot once. Fox's website story indicated he was shot 3 times, and that 4 others were wounded by gunfire, and two had knife wounds.

From the story:

He said he and other church members were praying for the gunman. "He's still alive, so there's still a chance for him to turn his life around and find the Lord."

Or to die and find his true master. Guess, I'm not as charitable as the folks at First Baptist, Maryville.

41 posted on 03/08/2009 12:26:50 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Myrddin

That or the mag spring was shot.


42 posted on 03/08/2009 12:30:15 PM PDT by Mathews (Ambition, absent a moral compass, is naked destruction.)
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To: gracesdad
It simply means the victim or his family has given permission. Notice that not all of the victim names have been published.

I thought of that as well, but it doesn't explain why the police haven't released his name. I guess it's possible he had no ID, and since no one at the church recognized him, the police do not yet know who he is, but it seems unlikely he wouldn't be carrying any ID. Even thugs generally get driver's licenses.

The hospital that people, including both the pastor and his killer, were taken to first is very close to the church, just 600-700 yards, with both on the same road.

43 posted on 03/08/2009 12:36:46 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Mathews
That or the mag spring was shot.

Or the trooper was mistaken. Other stories, such as the one on Fox, indicate that Pastor Winters was shot 3 times, and 4 others were also shot, and that 2 had knife wounds. They report 5 others, in addtion to the Pastor and the killer, transported to the hospital.

If all that's true, the killer may have just shot the gun dry. Typical .45 has 7 round magazine, and if the magazine was not topped off after loading, then that's 7 rounds available. Rather than jamming, the slide may have locked back on an empty magazine.

It should all get sorted out shortly. At minimum they should have already counted the shell casing(s) lying about.

44 posted on 03/08/2009 12:46:27 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

If this attack has an Islamic terrorist connection, you will hear nothing about it after today. If the shooter is a garden-variety lunatic with no politically correct motivations, for the next week or so you will hear news stories about how .45 caliber handguns are “too powerful” for citizens to be allowed to own. There will also be stories about how the killer, who probably has a long history of violent crime and/or mental illness, is a “typical American” who happened to have access to a gun.


45 posted on 03/08/2009 12:46:32 PM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Wow, Maryville is just North of me. I have a feeling these events are only going to get worse.


46 posted on 03/08/2009 1:25:31 PM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: Senormechanico
Muzzie?

Secular Humanist Fundamentalist!

47 posted on 03/08/2009 1:30:45 PM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta
Here is the photo of the pastor and his family that is on the web site:


48 posted on 03/08/2009 1:46:35 PM PDT by jwparkerjr (God Bless America!)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

Someone needs to be tried and publicly hung. And, not allowing concealed carry should also bring chargers against lawmakers who propose such restrictions in violation of the 2nd Amendement. When are we going to get decent government? When???


49 posted on 03/08/2009 1:51:00 PM PDT by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: PeteePie
My home church has had a security team for the past three years. “gentle as doves...crafty as serpents”

Do you know what their responsibilities are?

50 posted on 03/08/2009 5:18:43 PM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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