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Suspects refuse to give blood in DUI crackdown in Palm Beach County
South Florida Sun-Sentinel ^ | 3/1/09 | Dianna Cahn

Posted on 03/11/2009 6:59:36 PM PDT by elkfersupper

Surrounded by flashing red and blue lights, the man in red leather sandals lifted one foot off the ground and waited as the deputy kept time. Then, finding that the man had failed the sobriety test, the deputy pulled the man's hands behind his back and shackled them. The man stood in a strip mall parking lot where he pulled over after an undercover deputy noticed him swerving in and out of his lane on Military Trail and he struck the median, said Sheriff's Cpl. Scott Yoder, who assisted with the arrest. The undercover deputy charged the driver with cocaine possession. Then a deputy made the DUI arrest. It was a moment repeated often Friday night, the first of a two-night countywide crackdown on drunken driving that involved more than 100 law enforcement officers. Twenty-six people were arrested Friday night on DUI charges, according to Capt. William Kenny, head of the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office traffic division. At least four refused to submit to a blood test, the latest tool officials planned to employ against drunken driving. The Sheriff's Office, working closely with the State Attorney's Office, sparked controversy when it decided to seek a judge-approved search warrant to take blood from anyone who appeared drunk and refused a breath test. Opponents argue that forced blood tests violate Florida statute. But State Attorney Michael McAuliffe said other Florida counties upheld the techniques and the uproar was "much ado about nothing." "I am not sure what the controversy is," McAuliffe told officers before the patrol.

(Excerpt) Read more at sun-sentinel.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: alcohol; dui; dwi; madd
Vampire bloodsuckers with MADD mother supervision.
1 posted on 03/11/2009 6:59:36 PM PDT by elkfersupper
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To: elkfersupper

If they get to the point of wanting to take blood, you’re going to jail period. Found that one out several years ago.

They couldn’t get me on a breathalyzer or a field sobriety test so they arrested me and took me to the hospital and then to jail.


2 posted on 03/11/2009 7:04:04 PM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: elkfersupper

LOL!

I couldn’t care less about the so called “rights” of drunks driving.


3 posted on 03/11/2009 7:04:40 PM PDT by bill1952 (Power is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: elkfersupper

But if it saves the life of one child, it’s worth it!!!


4 posted on 03/11/2009 7:04:43 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual attack cat.)
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To: bill1952

What about the rights of sober drivers?


5 posted on 03/11/2009 7:06:48 PM PDT by csmusaret (You can't spell Democrat without R-A-T.)
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To: bill1952

Its about all our rights.


6 posted on 03/11/2009 7:07:20 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (It's time for the grown ups !)
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To: bill1952
Define "drunk".

The experts and the law seem to differ and change from day-to-day.

7 posted on 03/11/2009 7:08:05 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: bill1952

I couldn’t care less about the so called “rights” of drunks driving.


I care plenty about the rights of “drunks” driving.


8 posted on 03/11/2009 7:12:33 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics=Obamageddon)
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To: bill1952
I couldn’t care less about the so called “rights” of drunks driving.

I was once one of those so called drunks. Unfortunately I was sober but it still cost me a night in jail, the cost of towing and impound, the cost of a blood test at the hospital, plus time spent going to court waiting for them to produce evidence that never materialized.
9 posted on 03/11/2009 7:12:50 PM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: elkfersupper

Forced blood tests? Hell...that crap don’t fly even up here in the Massachusetts Gulag.


10 posted on 03/11/2009 7:14:04 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage...)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

They aren’t “forced” here but you’ll go to jail if you refuse. LOL


11 posted on 03/11/2009 7:19:20 PM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: cripplecreek
They couldn’t get me on a breathalyzer or a field sobriety test so they arrested me and took me to the hospital and then to jail.

And then?

12 posted on 03/11/2009 7:19:44 PM PDT by TankerKC (It's July, 1956.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Wait until the cops themselves start doing it.

Now, in most jurisdictions that condone this travesty, they at lease give lip service to the warrant process and MIGHT arrange for a qualified phlebotomist.

I wouldn't be surprised if they start sucking it out of the gutter after the execution soon.

13 posted on 03/11/2009 7:22:26 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: TankerKC
it still cost me a night in jail, the cost of towing and impound, the cost of a blood test at the hospital, plus time spent going to court waiting for them to produce evidence that never materialized.

And then the case was dismissed and it still cost damn near as much as if I had been found guilty.
14 posted on 03/11/2009 7:23:25 PM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: elkfersupper
The Sheriff's Office, working closely with the State Attorney's Office, sparked controversy when it decided to seek a judge-approved search warrant to take blood from anyone who appeared drunk and refused a breath test. Opponents argue that forced blood tests violate Florida statute. But State Attorney Michael McAuliffe said other Florida counties upheld the techniques and the uproar was "much ado about nothing."

I don't know Florida statute, but if there is probably cause, the suspects are screwed on Federal Case law.

With so many refusals, the warrants did not appear effective, said Miami-based DUI attorney Michael Cohen, who argued that under Florida statute, it was illegal to force someone to comply with a blood test unless an accident caused serious injury or death. "I thought the whole point of the warrant was they could strap them down and take it against their will, just like they do with serious bodily injury," Cohen said. "It seems like this failed for them."

Maybe they have a shot there. If's that Florida law, it seems cut and dry, but even with my defense leanings, I take a defense attorney's word for what it's worth - a guy whose job is to stand up for his clients.

16 posted on 03/11/2009 7:30:00 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (Obama = Jimmy Carter II)
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To: elkfersupper

It’s nice when you can make them look like fools.

In my case I went to court 4 different times for arraignment and the prosecutor always had to tell the judge the evidence hadn’t arrived from the hospital. Finally on the 5th date the prosecutor wrote a number down on a piece of paper anb said that it was my BAC and if I plead guilty it would go easy on me. I said “OK I’m ready to enter a plea” and plead not guilty which put the prosecutor on the spot. He could either charge me without any evidence or move for dismissal. LOL I better never cross him again.


17 posted on 03/11/2009 7:31:49 PM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: bill1952
I couldn’t care less about the so called “rights” of drunks driving.

You should.

I don't DUI, don't condone it, and those who are convicted of it should not be on the road for a long time.

That aside, everyone should have the right to a fair trial, and our constitutional rights (search and seizure) are very important and have been eroded heavily since the days of the Terry stop.

18 posted on 03/11/2009 7:32:58 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (Obama = Jimmy Carter II)
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To: elkfersupper

I’m not eager at all to be on the road with a bunch of drunks careening around. These people have a right to be secure in their persons, though. Forced blood tests have more than just a whiff of totalitarianism about them. Get them off the road in some other, more Constitutional and less intrusive manner, please.


19 posted on 03/11/2009 7:40:20 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Huntress

And if it saves the life of one illigal alien, it’s worth it, never mind his status.


20 posted on 03/11/2009 7:46:27 PM PDT by Waco
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To: elkfersupper

“Vampire bloodsuckers with MADD mother supervision.”

Fight them by joining drunks against Mad Mothers!!!!


21 posted on 03/11/2009 7:53:04 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: cripplecreek

Same thing happened to me once...about 15 years ago. Only instead of dismissing the charges they changed it to “wreckless driving”. My lawyer said there was nothing he could do.


22 posted on 03/11/2009 8:00:24 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: bill1952

THat’s how it starts. When they come for you, why should I speak up?


23 posted on 03/11/2009 8:02:03 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: elkfersupper
How To Ace An Intervention
Modern Drunkard Magazine ^ | March, 2003 | Frank Rich

Posted on 04/08/2005 4:55:04 PM PDT by 10mm

It may have already happened to you.

A friend or family member invites you over for a drink and suddenly you find yourself surrounded by the uptightest of your loved ones, trapped in an emotional ambush, pinned down with accusations that you, yes you, dear drunkard, are a monstrously diseased person. A person with a problem so horrifically out of control they are forced, yes forced, to confront you and make you change.

Now, there are those who secretly welcome interventions, either out of a selfish craving for attention or a repressed desire to stop drinking. If you are reading this magazine, however, you are most likely neither, and this article is for you.

First off, a properly executed intervention places you at a huge disadvantage. You are caught off guard, heavily outnumbered and most likely badly hungover. That doesn’t mean, however, that you can’t escape with your dignity and desire to drink intact. As a matter of fact, with proper preparation and foresight, you can not only duck the bullets, but turn back the attack and send the opposition running for cover. Here’s what to expect and, more importantly, how to win.

Remain Calm
Not such an easy thing to do. An intervention is a sneak attack, a very personal Pearl Harbor. You think your life is careening happily along like a brilliantly out-of-control speed boat and suddenly Japanese zeros (piloted by your friends, no less) are shrieking out of the sky to drop thousand-pound guilt bombs on your happy little ship.

Surprised people tend to react emotionally and attacked people tend to react defensively, and you must fight down both urges. You will lose a shouting match because there are more of them and they’ve already worked out their attack.

Muster all your inner strength and screw an indulgent and reasonable smile onto your face. Let them get emotional. When you respond to their outrageous demands, speak in the quiet and sonorous voice of reason. Adopt the attitude of a tolerant child psychologist dealing with irrational and angry children, imitate the calm unemotional timbre of the semi-infallible HAL 9000 computer in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Try to end all your sentences with your opponent’s first names. Answer questions with questions. Make them explain their motivations. For example:

“Frank, why do you drink so much?” “Do you really think I drink too much, Sam? “Hell yes, I do! Hell yes!” “Why do you think that, Sam? “Because you drink more than everyone else!” “Jackie Gleason told more jokes than most people. I don’t think that makes him a bad person. Do you think he was a bad person, Sam?” “We’re not talking about jokes. Were talking about drinking.” “I don’t know if you know this, Sam, but Gleason also drank way more than most people. Did you know that, Sam?” “Yes, and that makes him a very sad person.” “He was a very happy person, Sam. I think most people would love to live his life. He lived to be 72. Did you know that, Sam?” “We’re not talking about Jackie Gleason! We’re talking about you!” “Are you saying I don’t deserve to be as happy as Jackie Gleason? Why do you feel that way, Sam? Perhaps we should get to the bottom of those feelings before we go any further. Sam.”

It will drive them crazy.

Revel in the Truth
If they are following the standard intervention template, right off the bat they will insist you admit you are an alcoholic. This is not the time to get defensive and start telling fancy lies. Once you start denying what you and they both know to be true, you’ve already lost the moral high ground. They are laying siege to the castle that is your lifestyle and lies make for lousy sandbags.

Admit that you are, in fact, an alcoholic. Wholeheartedly. Embrace the title and steal its power. Admit to it in the same matter-of-fact, yet modest tone you would confess to being the undisputed world pickle-eating champion. No big deal, it’s just something you’re rather good at. Do not present yourself as a craven and shameful victim, instead stand tall as a reasonably proud and entirely self-aware recreational drinker. This tactic will most likely throw them off and may even enrage them. They will have expected you to duck this punch and instead you let the blow bounce of your granite chin like an errant moth.

Get God and Science On Your Side

Next they are likely to say: “Don’t you realize the harm the booze is doing to you?” This ploy was quite effective when everyone thought alcohol was an evil, unhealthy thing, but has lost a great deal of its power in the face of the tidal wave of medical reports attesting to how alcohol is actually very good for you.

Most anti-alcohol organizations still define alcoholism as having two drinks a day which, ironically, is the minimum number even the FDA confesses will cut your risk of heart disease by 30% and extend your life by 3 to 10 years. After you mention these facts, say this: “Truly, what is your interest in sending me to an early grave? You’re not in my will, if that’s what you’re thinking. I will, however, regularly bring flowers to your graves. I may even have a little nip out of my medicinal flask, in your memory, and think: ‘Why oh why wasn’t I strong enough to convince them to save their own lives?’”

If they try swinging the Bible onto their side, remind them that Jesus turned water into wine, not the other way around. The Bible attests that Noah himself liked to get hammered, and where would we all be if that good drunk captain didn’t gather the beasts and float the big boat? And be sure to memorize this biblical zinger: “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more (Proverbs 31:06-07).

After letting that one fly, you may ask your hosts if there is any wine to be had.

Crush the Quisling
At least one member of the group won’t want to be there. He’ll be the one lurking in the background, refusing to make eye contact. He may be a drinker himself. Probably not the same quality of drinker you are, but a fellow imbiber nevertheless. This traitor is very vulnerable to the Fruitarian Gambit. Developed as a forward defense against aggressive vegetarians, the gambit goes like this: When a vegetarian starts ranting about how meat is murder, identify yourself as a Fruitarian (super-vegans that only eat what a plant gives up willingly, such as an apple falling off a tree) and shrill, “Do you know the anguish of the wheat stalk at harvest time? Did you know they can sense when their brethren are being slaughtered around them? Is that a polyblend shirt, cotton killer? Where’s my red dye?”

For every extreme, self-righteous viewpoint, there is an even more extremely self-righteous one, and a modified Fruitarian Gambit can be brought into play as a means to dividing your attackers. Whenever you feel the tide turning against you, suddenly turn to the Quisling and say:

“I’ve seen you put a few down, Bob. Do you know there are those that would condemn you for that?” “Yes, but I drink moderately, I— “Yes, but what is moderation? Who makes those rules? Some people, like Sally here, thinks one drink is too many. Remember how drunk you got on your birthday?” “Yes, but I was celebrating.” “So maybe I like to celebrate every day! Does that make me a bad person? I expect this of them, but you, Bob? It just makes me sad.”

Then, every time they attack alcohol, turn to Bob and say, “Do you hear what they’re saying about you? You don’t seem such a horrible person to me, Bob. I happen to think you’re a wonderful person.”

He will be shamed. He didn’t want to be there in the first place and now he’ll wish he was somewhere, anywhere else. His hangdog expression will put a drag on the group’s self-righteousness, and he may even start rising to your defense. It’s a cruel trick, but you can make it up by buying him a shot later.

Shine a Favorable Light on Your Questionable Behavior
At some point they are likely to roll out a verbal highlight reel of some of your, shall we say, less than gentlemanly antics while under the influence. Whatever you do, resist the urge to insist: “You can’t blame me for that! I was blacked out at the time!” Instead, mold the hideous clay of your bad behavior into cute little bunny rabbits:

“Frank, I watched you drink a whole bottle of cheap vodka!” “It was all I could afford. Surely you don’t want me blowing my paycheck on some imported brand.” “You vomited on the bar!” “I was feeling ill. What do you do when you feel ill?” “You started a fight with the bouncer when he tried to throw you out!” “He was insulting your manhood. You might not think your manhood is worth defending, but I do.” “Then why’d you try to choke me?” “I was just rough-housing a little. That was my inner-child expressing himself. Are we so locked in the uptight prison of adulthood we can’t goof around a little?” “Then you went home with a strange woman!” “Her name is Miss Sally Winterbottom, of the Boston Winterbottoms. And that’s exactly how my grandparents met. They’ve been happily married for fifty years now. Did you know Sally writes the most brilliant poetry, Sam?” “You missed work the next day!” “Haven’t you told me time and time again I should quit that awful job? That it’s far below my talents? With any luck they’ll fire me and I’ll be goaded into seeking out my true destiny.”

Give Them Nifty Nicknames
In prison, I’m told, every guard gets a nickname, courtesy of the inmates. You should do your friends the same favor. By now they’re probably getting a little uncomfortable about the whole gig, particularly if it’s their first intervention, and you can heighten the tension by hanging a contrary tag on each of your oppressors. If there is a liberal in the group, start referring to him as Hitler. If another is a conservative, call him Stalin. If there’s a Bible thumper on board, tag her the Grand Inquisitor. Osama works on nearly everyone.

Sprinkle these new nicknames liberally throughout the conversation, for example: “Hey, Hitler, if the Grand Inquisitor over there is making some coffee, can you tell her to whip me up a cocktail? Oh, I forgot, drinking is against the rules now. Ain’t that right, Osama?”

Make Them Respect Your Individual Pursuit of Happiness
The interventionists’ strongest, most difficult-to-repel attack is expressed in a single question: “Do you realize how your drinking is affecting those around you?” Now, if your drinking actually is stealing food from the mouths of your many weeping children, or lends you the uncontrollable urge to wrap your car around the nearest available tree, you’re in trouble. You have no defense at all and should, weeping softly, march with them arm-in-arm to the substance-abuse clinic of their choice.

However, if they are talking about how you are adversely affecting the lives of fully-grown, independent adults that you do not keep locked in your basement, and you know better than driving drunk, you can tell them all to go to hell.

If they don’t like the way you live your life, they can clear out at the first sight of you hoisting a highball. Our founding fathers swore the Creator himself gifted us with the inalienable right of the pursuit of happiness, and if your idea of happiness is getting wildly hammered, flopping like a happy seal on any number of poorly-constructed tables and waking up hugging a toilet like it was your long lost millionaire brother, that’s none of their damn business.

If they ask why you drink, and they will, tell them this: “Drinking makes me happy. Are you really the sort of people to steal away the most precious commodity of all: Happiness? You envy my joy! It burns you up that I march through life with laughter in my heart! Your cruel frown envies my giddy grin!”

Let ‘em try those jackboots on and see how they fit.

Spin a Web of Artistic Pretension
If you, like every other drunk, fancy yourself a painter/writer/sculptor/amateur beer-commercial deconstructionist or any other stripe of artist, you have a powerful defense at your disposal. Let slip your calm mask for a moment, crank some fiery passion into your voice and lay this concept on them:

“Alcohol inspires me to create. What if Picasso’s so-called pals had convinced him to stop drinking absinthe? Sure, he may have become less of an ******* and could have afforded a better apartment, but wouldn’t we be deprived of the brilliantly shining light of his irreplaceable art? Art that has inspired and touched the souls of millions! You would throw all that away so the poor bastard could wake up every morning without a hangover? Really? You are the enemies of art! I decry you as the oppressive jail keepers of creative thought!”

And if they dare smirk at the idea of you being the next Picasso, snarl: “With friends like you, I won’t be!”

Counter Attack
Now that you’ve blunted their savage assault, it’s high time to launch your own vengeful attack. The only people bold enough to conduct an intervention are those who consider themselves very close to you, so you most likely will know more than a little about their habits. And everyone, even Mother Theresa, has bad habits. Attack these flaws with a strident, yet deeply concerned tone.

If one of them is overweight, point out that being obese is very bad for the heart and his gluttony is putting his life in great jeopardy. If one of them smokes, point out the dangers of second-hand smoke, and remark that at least when you’re drinking you don’t go around spitting bourbon into people’s mouths.

If one of them drives an SUV, inform her she is selfishly destroying the environment and the future of her children. If one smokes pot or uses other drugs, ask him why he would take away your perfectly legal system of killing stress and adding pleasure to life. Say, “You look agitated, Ralph, sure you don’t want to go smoke one of your doobies? Isn’t it time to pop a Valium, Joan? Score any cocaine lately, Sammy Boy?” Get on your feet and ask if you have the right to force them to change their personal habits.

As a weak defense they will probably say they wished you did care enough to lead them from their sins and you must immediately respond: “Well, that’s more like it! Let’s get down to it! Who shall we start with first? The self-hating glutton, the cancer killer, the drug-addict or the eco-assassin? Hmm?”

And that will be the end of it. The last thing this type of person wants to do is look into the unforgiving mirror of their own shortcomings. The intervention will deflate into a dejected co-support group. At which point you should invite them all out for drinks. —Frank Rich

24 posted on 03/11/2009 8:15:29 PM PDT by 10mm
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To: elkfersupper

If it can be forced merely because of a cop’s/prosecutor’s opinion, like Saturday night “sobriety checks” looking for sober people who’ve had a drink and are driving fine while giving plenty of warning for actual drunks to turn down a side street, it’s garbage.

But if you have, I don’t know, Reasonable Cause (a bag of cocaine qualifies, and swerving around before bouncing off the median would as well), then there’s nothing unreasonable about it.


25 posted on 03/11/2009 8:16:45 PM PDT by BobbyT
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To: elkfersupper
It's time to stop the MADDness.
26 posted on 03/11/2009 8:33:45 PM PDT by AlaskaErik (I served and protected my country for 31 years. Democrats spent that time trying to destroy it.)
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To: elkfersupper

A friend of mine told me about the Polezi in Germany. When there was a barfight, the MP’s would show up and it would slowly fizzle out. The Polezi showed up and everyone scattered. If you were pulled over and they wanted to test you, you could refuse a blood test as long as you understood they had a baton and WILL get your blood one way or the other. I for one hate cops, but when it comes to that issue, I believe it is a good idea to use some force in these cases. I had a choice to go out that night and I had a choice to drink. If I choose to pilot an auto and risk others lives, I understand.


27 posted on 03/11/2009 9:08:06 PM PDT by When do we get liberated? ((Ok, Im the official Pit Bull Defender/If you can't stand behind our troops, stand in front of them.)
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To: Darren McCarty

I don’t know Florida statute, but if there is probably cause, the suspects are screwed on Federal Case law.
*********************************************************
I don’t know about drawing blood but if you’re asked to do a field sobriety test ALWAYS refuse , you can only leave yourself open to abuse at the hands of a cop to whom any misstep is a sign that you’re drunk ,, no difference at all from refusing to answer questions that “seem” harmless at the time... no good can come of it.

Also if you are diabetic be aware that diabetics metabolize differently than the rest of us and their breath contains elevated levels of acetone and benzene (yes , paint remover chemicals) , many , many breathalyzers read diabetics breath as containing alcohol when you may have had nothing to drink.


28 posted on 03/11/2009 9:18:16 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: Neidermeyer
I don't practice criminal law, but I've heard enough stories. I have these magic words for anything above a civil infraction.

"I wish to speak with my attorney"

I also have a tape recorder in my truck at all times.

29 posted on 03/11/2009 9:21:40 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (Obama = Jimmy Carter II)
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To: mamelukesabre

I went through the whole process without an attorney but an attorney did tell me it didn’t sound like they were going to produce any evidence so I called the prosecutor’s bluff. By my 5th court appearence I think the judge was more than a little irritated with the prosecutor so he knew better than try to charge me with something else.


30 posted on 03/12/2009 4:17:23 AM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: cripplecreek
They aren’t “forced” here but you’ll go to jail if you refuse. LOL

In Mass...you can refuse Breath-o-Lyzer and blood test. But you'll lose your license for 120 days minimum...immediately. Which will probably happen anyway after your court date. But if you take it and blow over .08, you can keep it until a judge jerks your ticket.

31 posted on 03/12/2009 9:29:38 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage...)
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To: elkfersupper

There is no way I can pass a sobriety test because of balance problems (I’ve had a labyrinthectomy). But I’m sure all cops are trained to spot that.


32 posted on 03/12/2009 9:35:07 AM PDT by Glenn (Free Venezuela!)
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To: Glenn
You just have to say nothing and do nothing until you contact your lawyer and until your lawyer is present.

Good luck with that.

There really is no defense except to not get stopped in the first place.

33 posted on 03/12/2009 7:20:52 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: Glenn

Make sure you blow into the little balloon then

Here’s the deal. You get drunk and drive. You can refuse the test and lose your license for a year. Or you can blow DWI and get restricted driving. Either way, your insurance company finds out.

The problem is that repeat offenders just keep refusing the test. That way, they never get charged. So we have repeat drunk drivers on the road.


34 posted on 03/12/2009 7:26:41 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
So, you can be punished before you are convicted, and receive multiple punishments for the same "crime".

Isn't that just ducky?

35 posted on 03/12/2009 7:37:04 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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