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Massacres restart debate on gun control
FT.com ^ | March 12 2009 | Chris Bryant & Demetri Seavastopulo

Posted on 03/12/2009 7:13:16 PM PDT by Graybeard58

Two shooting massacres in Germany and the US this week have reignited the debate on gun control, but while Europe has in the past been been ready to tighten already tough restrictions the US remains more resistant to change.

Germany was in shock yesterday after a teenage gunman shot 15 people near Stuttgart in one of the worst incidents of its kind in the country.

In the US on Tuesday a man went on a shooting spree in Alabama after setting his mother on fire in her house. The 28-year-old, Michael McLendon, killed 10 people including five family members.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, said the attack marked a "day of sorrow" for the whole country. In the US, where such massacres are all too common, Barack Obama, the president, made no statement.

During the presidential campaign Mr Obama trod a fine line between stressing the need to do more to prevent criminals from obtaining weapons while reassuring gun-loving voters he would respect the sacrosanct second amendment of the constitution, which protects the right to bear arms.

Mrs Merkel said in Berlin: "It is unimaginable that in just seconds, pupils and teachers were killed - it is an appalling crime."

A 17-year-old, clad in combat clothing, entered a school in Winnenden shortly after lessons began and fired indiscriminately, killing nine pupils and three teachers. After fleeing the scene, he killed a passer-by.

Later, two more bystanders, as well as the assailant, were killed after a shoot-out with police.

German media reported that the assailant's father was a member of a shooting club and kept a collection of at least 16 registered weapons in the family home. The attack re-awakened painful memories of a massacre in 2002 at a high school in the eastern city of Erfurt, when 16 people were killed.

The Erfurt attack sparked an unprecedented bout of public soul-searching in Germany and prompted the government to tighten gun ownership laws, by raising the minimum age to buy major firearms from 18 to 21.

A public outcry in 2007 forced Wolfgang Schäuble, interior minister, to drop plans to reverse this higher age limit, which had been proposed to bring German law into harmony with other European Union countries. "Safety comes first," Mr Schäuble said at the time.

The fact that tighter German rules failed to prevent yesterday's killings meant that politicians were unwilling to rule out further restrictions.

But Wolfgang Bosbach, deputy head of Ms Merkel's Christian Democratic Union parliamentary party, told the Financial Times it was "far too early" to talk about a political response.

Despite previous incidents, many Germans remain sceptical of introducing US-style security, including metal detectors and video surveillance into the country's traditionally liberal schooling system.

"The state cannot give a guarantee that nothing like this will happen again," Mr Bosbach said and warned against turning schools into "high-security wings".

Dietrich Oberwittler, a criminologist at a Max Planck law institute, agreed that politicians could do little more to prevent these kinds of attack, noting that state police had executed a specially designed rapid response plan but were not able to arrive soon enough.

"Guns laws are already very strict," he said. "It is extremely hard to recognise these people in advance."

While the Alabama shooting temporarily displaced the economic crisis on US television, gun-control advocates were not confident that it would help Mr Obama engineer any significant changes on gun ownership.

Ladd Everitt, communications director at the Washington-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said the president had shown little interest in pushing Congress to make changes that would outrage the powerful National Rifle Association.

German killings

Feb 2002 Former student at a school in Freising, Bavaria, kills three before taking his own life

April 2002 In Erfurt, eastern Germany, a 19-year-old kills 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman, before killing himself

Nov 2006 An 18-year-old former pupil storms a school in the western town of Emsdetten. He wounds 11 before killing himself


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Alabama
KEYWORDS: banglist; bho44; bhodoj; donttreadonme; guncontrol; massshooting; michaelmclendon; murdersuicide; shallnotbeinfringed; shooting
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1 posted on 03/12/2009 7:13:16 PM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58

Remember the school shooting in Brtiain several years ago? The only way you will ever eliminate this sort of thing is to make human beings forget how a gun is made.


2 posted on 03/12/2009 7:15:35 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: Graybeard58

Note this debate is in Germany.


3 posted on 03/12/2009 7:15:52 PM PDT by gracesdad
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To: Graybeard58
Media newshounds are scouring the world looking for stories of tragic gun deaths. The stage is being set. Obama's people will be knocking on your door before too long.

This will be the spark that starts the firestorm.

4 posted on 03/12/2009 7:16:29 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (American Revolution II -- overdue)
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To: Graybeard58
It's not the guns. IT'S THE PEOPLE, STUPID!

After 9-11, I didn't hear anyone calling for a ban on airliners!

5 posted on 03/12/2009 7:16:47 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Just being a "U.S. citizen" does not make one an American.)
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To: Graybeard58

Why isn’t it illegal to shoot people?


6 posted on 03/12/2009 7:17:24 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: ClearCase_guy

So they will whip up a crisis about gun control now?

Emmanuel said never waste a good crisis.


7 posted on 03/12/2009 7:18:01 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: Graybeard58

And how man were killed by the German GOVERNMENT in WWI and WII? Tens of millions? Tackle the big government nanniest/marxist/totalitarian problems and round up the socialists before you try to round up innocent gun owners.


8 posted on 03/12/2009 7:19:13 PM PDT by MtnClimber (Zer0-bama intelligence, smaller than a quark, more difficult to find than a Higgs boson)
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To: gracesdad

gee more gun control in germany? when did that last occur?


9 posted on 03/12/2009 7:20:25 PM PDT by robomatik
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To: Dilbert San Diego
If people are allowed to keep their guns, and if Obama keeps doing what he's doing, there will be trouble.
My guess is that Obama will try to take the guns, so that he can keep doing what he's doing and not have to worry about any trouble.
But he will miscalculate. By trying to take the guns, he will ignite the trouble he is trying to forestall.
10 posted on 03/12/2009 7:21:18 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (American Revolution II -- overdue)
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To: Graybeard58

I’ll take the risks of freedom over serfdom any day.


11 posted on 03/12/2009 7:22:40 PM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

The last time a King sent his troops to confiscate the guns at an arsenal in Lexington, things got a bit out of hand. Maybe King Zero and his minions think it will work out differently this time.


12 posted on 03/12/2009 7:26:13 PM PDT by 230FMJ (...from my cold, dead, fingers.)
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To: Graybeard58

It’s amazing that when such things happen, the media and liberals just start talking about gun controls. They don’t even stop and consider the killers that are doing such things. They just focus on the weapon(s) used to commit the crimes.


13 posted on 03/12/2009 7:26:53 PM PDT by KoRn
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To: Graybeard58

Debate indeed!

If somebody in the community had been armed they could have stopped the slaughter!


14 posted on 03/12/2009 7:28:02 PM PDT by G Larry (Obama's plan = "STEALING FROM THOSE WHO CREATE THE JOBS!")
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To: KoRn

It never ceases to amaze me that the gun control nuts want to take guns away from the very people that should have them in the first place - responsible gun owners who use them to defend themselves and their families.


15 posted on 03/12/2009 7:29:16 PM PDT by Ev Reeman
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To: ClearCase_guy
Media newshounds are scouring the world looking for stories of tragic gun deaths. The stage is being set. Obama's people will be knocking on your door before too long.
This will be the spark that starts the firestorm.

Governments made and paid with paper should consider the unintended consequences of starting firestorms.

16 posted on 03/12/2009 7:30:21 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (01-20-2009 : The end of the PAX AMERICANA.)
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To: RobbyS
I am still trying to figure out what shootings in Germany have to do with gun laws in the USA. What a bunch of crap. The MSM will constantly being running shooting stories, true or not, trying to get new gun laws passed in the USA.

Here is what you have to remember. If someone wants to disarm you they do not have your welfare in mind. They want to control you and can't do it if you are armed.

17 posted on 03/12/2009 7:32:21 PM PDT by calex59
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To: ClearCase_guy

Went to a little ole local gun shop today. Rural community....I find a Brand spanking new, larger building, new last year....and already building on another area just as large.......parking lot full.

The prices made something other than a “tingle” run down my leg, though.


18 posted on 03/12/2009 7:32:27 PM PDT by digger48
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To: Graybeard58
...ready to tighten already tough restrictions..

Already tough? Does it even ever enter their skulls that maybe Gun Control Does Not Work! The proof is laying all around while good honest people cower in their basements unprotected till the madmen run out of ammo.

19 posted on 03/12/2009 7:32:47 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

Hey. Stop making sense.

This is an emotional matter.


20 posted on 03/12/2009 7:32:48 PM PDT by mylife ( The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Graybeard58

We have been killing each other from the first days that walked out of the caves,

We will go on killing each other long after we have returned to the caves.

Guns just take some of the work out of it.


21 posted on 03/12/2009 7:34:03 PM PDT by Gator113 (For America to survive, Obama must fail.....)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: ClearCase_guy
The push is starting in Maryland where they are going after ammunition.
23 posted on 03/12/2009 7:44:45 PM PDT by ANGGAPO (Leyte Gulf Beach Club)
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To: Graybeard58

Never mind that Europe turned its back on Christianity and embraced socialism which teaches that people are nothing and the state is everything.


24 posted on 03/12/2009 7:45:45 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Socialism is the belief that most people are better off if everyone was equally poor and miserable.)
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To: MtnClimber

“And how many were killed by the German Government in WWI and WWII? Tens of Millions? Tackle the big government nanny/marxist/totalitarian problems and round up the socialists before you try to round up innocent gun owners.”

Probably one of the best posts I have read on this site in a long time. And could you imagine if EVEN ONE Republican would have the guts to make this point aggressively the next time gun control comes up? Would force the history lesson into the mainstream and force some perspective. Brilliant post, MtnClimber.


25 posted on 03/12/2009 7:46:46 PM PDT by raptor29
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Why isn’t it illegal to shoot people?

Brilliant!

Why didn't we think of that before! Let's just pass laws to make it illegal to shoot people and this will never happen again! Oh, thank you for starting the "Just don't shoot people!" movement! /s

26 posted on 03/12/2009 7:48:15 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is an EVIL like no other, and must be ERADICATED)
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To: Graybeard58
A public outcry in 2007 forced Wolfgang Schäuble, interior minister, to drop plans to reverse this higher age limit, which had been proposed to bring German law into harmony with other European Union countries. "Safety comes first," Mr Schäuble said at the time.
27 posted on 03/12/2009 7:49:28 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Ramius
A public outcry in 2007 forced Wolfgang Schäuble, interior minister, to drop plans to reverse this higher age limit, which had been proposed to bring German law into harmony with other European Union countries. "Safety comes first," Mr Schäuble said at the time.

Said Jim Taggart...

28 posted on 03/12/2009 7:51:03 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: raptor29

None of the current crop of Republicans has the brass to bring it up.


29 posted on 03/12/2009 8:08:38 PM PDT by wastedyears (April 21st, 2009 - International Iron Maiden Day)
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To: robomatik

“gee more gun control in germany? when did that last occur?”

I’d say it’s pretty tight right now. I don’t think you’ll see another Hitler, though.


30 posted on 03/12/2009 8:09:13 PM PDT by gracesdad
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To: RobbyS

I’m so sorry, but a gun by itself cannot kill anyone. We don’t need gun control, we need NUT control.


31 posted on 03/12/2009 8:14:55 PM PDT by Shadowstrike (Be polite, Be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Dick Bachert

I have looked at this site time and time again over the years. Still, no assault weapon violence!...

http://www.assaultweaponwatch.com/


32 posted on 03/12/2009 8:19:15 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: gracesdad

it’s not just this incident that worries me. personally, i think the e.u. might dissolve within a year. there are too many diplomatic and economic conflicts between e.u. countries to say that a “hitler” might not come to power. imho


33 posted on 03/12/2009 8:19:16 PM PDT by robomatik
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To: Thunder90

34 posted on 03/12/2009 8:20:22 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Graybeard58

Vultures exploiting murder victims for political ends.


35 posted on 03/12/2009 8:20:32 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Ev Reeman
"It never ceases to amaze me that the gun control nuts want to take guns away from the very people that should have them in the first place - responsible gun owners who use them to defend themselves and their families."

I'd easily wager that Mexico and Parts of Europe wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as they are now if they had gun ownership they way most of the US does.

The pattern is there for all to see. In each and every place where gun ownership or possession is the most restrictive, violent crime is MUCH MUCH higher. There is no denying it.

36 posted on 03/12/2009 8:21:16 PM PDT by KoRn
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To: FatherofFive

If passing a law restricting guns seems like a good idea, wouldn’t passing a law prohibiting murder be a better idea?


37 posted on 03/12/2009 8:41:39 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Graybeard58
Massacres restart debate on gun control

As well it should! If it were easier to legally carry a firearm in this country more people would be armed and these massacres would be even more rare than they are today.

38 posted on 03/12/2009 8:48:01 PM PDT by ConservaTexan (February 6, 1911)
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To: Graybeard58
We need more guns. Disarmed people are prey for psychopaths out there. MOLON LABE!

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

39 posted on 03/12/2009 8:52:24 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: wastedyears

Nope, bunch of pussies, across the board.


40 posted on 03/12/2009 8:57:22 PM PDT by raptor29
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To: Graybeard58

Does anyone remember an Adam Sandler movie where there was this huge guy wearing a t-shirt that said, “GUNS DON’T KILL PEOPLE...I DO”? That was a Great movie and T-shirt.


41 posted on 03/12/2009 9:12:37 PM PDT by odin2008 (EVIL TRIUMPHS WHEN GOOD MEN DO NOTHING)
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To: RobbyS

“The only way you will ever eliminate this sort of thing is to make human beings forget how a gun is made.”

“Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.” (A sword is never a killer; it is a tool in the killer’s hands.)

Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD


42 posted on 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM PDT by dsc (A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.)
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To: dsc

Speaking of, a very made sword would be an effective at close quarters as a gun. Jim Bowie, though in a sickbed, was found dead surroiunded by several Mexican soldiers killed by his famous knife —really a short sword.


43 posted on 03/12/2009 10:44:01 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: G Larry

I’m sure that people had guns, They just didn’t have time to react.


44 posted on 03/12/2009 10:48:43 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: Graybeard58

Every part of the country has anti-gun agitators who are probably reinvigorated by this administration.Learn specifically who your enemy is on a local level.
The Alinsky driven government follows the dictates of the late communist when it adheres to his dictum of personalizing and isolating the enemy.It’s something that can cut both ways,but those arrogant POS’s that shop at Whole Foods don’t realize that.
Gun confiscation will set off something they don’t want to think about in their worst nightmares.
The police can’t do it.I don’t believe the military will turn on the American people at the behest of Holder,Schumer,and the rest of the cabal.
What does that leave them with?Blue helmets from the UN?There is an enemy Americans can really go after.
Once the illegal aliens are amnestied,Obama can recruit from their ranks.Think about that.They are people who have no attachment to this country other than using it for their own benefit.
A lot of people are going to be sorry they were conned by the commies on 11/4/08.


45 posted on 03/13/2009 1:50:46 AM PDT by steamroller
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To: Dick Bachert

Stop posting filthy pictures on FR.I just lost breakfast./LOL/


46 posted on 03/13/2009 1:53:01 AM PDT by steamroller
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To: Centurion2000

That’s a good one!!!

Post of the day!


47 posted on 03/13/2009 2:13:16 AM PDT by stevie_d_64
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
The Hegelian Dialectic in action. All very predictable.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

48 posted on 03/13/2009 6:06:25 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: robomatik

The last time Germany instituted strict gun control, very few people were killed with guns, right? Oh, wait, the Germans murdered MILLIONS of UNARMED people.


49 posted on 03/13/2009 6:17:14 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Socialism is the belief that most people are better off if everyone was equally poor and miserable.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Oh, wait, the Germans murdered MILLIONS of UNARMED people.

You can't argue facts with Liberals.

50 posted on 03/13/2009 6:26:11 AM PDT by wastedyears (April 21st, 2009 - International Iron Maiden Day)
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