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Parks to ban lead bullets, tackle
Jackson Hole News ^ | March 13, 2009 | Angus M. Thuermer Jr

Posted on 03/16/2009 8:38:26 AM PDT by george76

The National Park Service has set a goal of eliminating lead from fishing and hunting gear by 2010.

Acting Park Service director Dan Wenk announced the goal Wednesday in Washington. Fragments of lead bullets are suspected to contaminate scavenger birds, like ravens and eagles, and lead used as fishing weights could poison waterfowl and other species.

A firearms group was quick to condemn the action.

“The National Park Service’s decision is arbitrary, over-reactive and not based on science,” Steve Sanetti, president of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said in a statement. His group is a trade association for the firearms and ammunition industry.

“Studies show that traditional ammunition does not pose a health risk to humans, or wildlife populations as a whole,” he said.

The Park Service is grappling with another firearms issue — whether to allow parks visitors to carry concealed weapons as allowed by permit elsewhere. While the Bush administration implemented new rules allowing concealed weapons, the Obama team is reviewing those in a growing skirmish pitting Second Amendment advocates against conservationists.

In announcing the lead goal, Wenk said a ban would extend to rangers who put down wounded or injured animals.

Jackson Hole News&Guide Outdoors columnist Paul Bruun said he wouldn’t expect a drop in performance from bullets made from substitute metals. At issue will be convenience and cost.

Rifles need to be sighted according to a particular ammunition, and switching from lead to a substitute should include a session at a shooting range to ensure accuracy, he said. Those who load their own ammo also would be inconvenienced, he said.

“I think where you’re going to lose is going to be in your pocketbook,”

(Excerpt) Read more at jacksonholenews.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Idaho; US: Montana; US: Oregon; US: Washington; US: Wyoming
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; animalrights; ar; banglist; fishing; gungrabber; gungrabbers; hunting; nps; peta; secondamendment
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1 posted on 03/16/2009 8:38:26 AM PDT by george76
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To: girlangler; proud_yank; jazusamo; SunkenCiv; LucyT; tubebender; Grampa Dave; Texas Fossil; ...

Sportsmen nationwide must immediately contact their U.S. representatives and senators.

Ask your congressman and two U.S. senators to urge the Obama Administration to stop the National Park Service from its plan to stop the use lead ammunition and fishing tackle on its lands.

http://www.ussportsmen.org/Page.aspx?pid=1938


2 posted on 03/16/2009 8:41:37 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

While the Bush administration implemented new rules allowing concealed weapons, the Obama team is reviewing those in a growing skirmish pitting Second Amendment advocates against conservationists.


What the heck is anti-conservation about self defense?

The issue pits Second Amendment advocates against against leftist control freaks.


3 posted on 03/16/2009 8:44:33 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics="Trickle-up Poverty")
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To: george76

Jackson Hole News&Guide Outdoors columnist Paul Bruun said he wouldn’t expect a drop in performance from bullets made from substitute metals.


Lead has a 27% greater density than copper, meaning that the lighter copper bullets won’t have the same range due to the increased effects of drag on a comparable mass bullet.


4 posted on 03/16/2009 8:47:59 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics="Trickle-up Poverty")
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
Last week it was the mandated and wasteful destruction of all fired military brass. Now for this week, we have this.

Someone remind me later to thank all the little brainwashed sheep that voted in the current administration.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

5 posted on 03/16/2009 8:48:53 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Myrddin; neverdem; Jeff Head; NVDave; rellimpank; MileHi; MtnClimber; XeniaSt; Liz; Seadog Bytes; ..

“We’re not talking an Argentine duck shoot here – 1,000 shots a day,”


6 posted on 03/16/2009 8:50:13 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
"In announcing the lead goal, Wenk said a ban would extend to rangers who put down wounded or injured animals."

If a ranger finds an injured animal, I guess they'll just have to bash their skull in with a rock? (the animals I mean).

Or, as written, does this mean that rangers who put down wounded or injured animals will be banned from National Parks?

Kinda silly for them to ban rangers from the parks, but I guess they're in charge...

7 posted on 03/16/2009 8:51:59 AM PDT by KitJ (Shall Not Be Infringed)
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To: george76

It started with cigarettes, now this. Where are all the cheerleaders for increasing cigarette taxes? Watch it, caffiene and sugary drinks will soon get a national ban or tax.


8 posted on 03/16/2009 8:51:59 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (Want to make a conservative angry? Lie to him. Want to make a liberal angry? Tell him the truth)
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To: Beelzebubba
You might want to consult ballistics tables and load data for existing all copper bullets (Barnes X-bullets, for example).

Now ... all copper is likely to be more expensive. But that's what this is really all about: Making life difficult for the armed citizen subject.

9 posted on 03/16/2009 8:53:23 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: george76

The enviro-wacko’s claim wolf re-introduction eliminates the need for hunting by humans


10 posted on 03/16/2009 8:55:25 AM PDT by fso301
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To: george76

Part of an ongoing agenda to collapse the 2nd Am.


11 posted on 03/16/2009 8:56:00 AM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus (Born again Libertarian.)
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To: Beelzebubba

Except the bullet weight tends not to drop much, so you end up with a longer bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient and better ballistics.

Achieved at a much higher cost...


12 posted on 03/16/2009 8:56:26 AM PDT by green iguana
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To: Joe Brower
Total, unadulterated, whacked out BS!

Guess we will just have to save and discharge our lead projectiles at, in the true spirit of the 2nd Amendment... Tyranny!

13 posted on 03/16/2009 8:59:12 AM PDT by JDoutrider
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To: green iguana

Except the bullet weight tends not to drop much, so you end up with a longer bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient and better ballistics.


You need a longer bullet to get the same sectional density. This requires faster rifling twist (new barrel), and reduces the powder capacity (lower max velocity at max chamber pressure) of the cartridge when you keep the same overall cartridge length.

If copper were as good or better, some shooters (competition, hunters) would already be using it. There is a reason why lead is used.

It’s the only metal over 10k kg/m^3 that isn’t radioactive, preciously expensive, or so hard it will destroy a rifle barrel.


14 posted on 03/16/2009 9:01:03 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics="Trickle-up Poverty")
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To: Sir_Ed; Sir Francis Dashwood; Salvation; bray; AuntB; OregonRancher

No more lead weights and no more...


15 posted on 03/16/2009 9:02:29 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Beelzebubba

“What the heck is anti-conservation about self defense?”

have you been around conservationists much? They are the biggest bunch of liberals ever.


16 posted on 03/16/2009 9:04:58 AM PDT by caver (Obama's first goals: allow more killing of innocents and allow the killers of innocents to go free.)
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To: george76

No swimming, no picnicking, no flower picking, no walking on the grass.

Remember, this is your park.


17 posted on 03/16/2009 9:05:05 AM PDT by DManA
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To: george76
At issue will be convenience and cost.

To a true overzealous gov't environmentalist, there is no such thing as spending too much money or inconveniencing the populace too much to meet their goals. It's all about the power and control they get by continually taking away yours.....and then telling "you" how it's for your own good.
18 posted on 03/16/2009 9:09:08 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: george76
The type of lead fishing weight that I use in the surf (sometimes on the Padre Island National Seashore) is called a “spider weight”. It has copper legs (grapples)built into the lead body. These are very effective in conditions of current, wind and seaweed. Will be hard to design a castable weight like that without lead. More important is the fact that I rarely lose them so I'm not dumping a lot of lead on the beach. I always police up my own trash and as much other stuff that others have left has I can.
19 posted on 03/16/2009 9:10:51 AM PDT by nomorelurker
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To: Joe Brower
Last week it was the mandated and wasteful destruction of all fired military brass. Now for this week, we have this.

I missed that story. The a**holes are going after the ammunition and components. The shelves are bare of ammo and components already.

20 posted on 03/16/2009 9:11:06 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: fso301
The enviro-wacko’s claim wolf re-introduction eliminates the need for hunting by humans

The wolves are wiping out the deer, elk and moose. They are turning to domestic livestock and making forays into cities in search of food. You'll need to watch your pets and your own safety as this progresses.

21 posted on 03/16/2009 9:14:23 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Beelzebubba

That is why you mix the copper with some tungsten (wolfram) to bump up the weight.

Iron coated tungsten shot travels even further, making your 16 shoot like a 12, and your 20 shoot like a 16.


22 posted on 03/16/2009 9:14:51 AM PDT by donmeaker (You may not be interested in War but War is interested in you.)
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To: Travis T. OJustice

And then, like the tax on pot, they can just refuse to sell the tax stamps, or even to print them up.


23 posted on 03/16/2009 9:15:54 AM PDT by donmeaker (You may not be interested in War but War is interested in you.)
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To: caver

Enviromental nazis never used the word conservationist until recently. The definition of conservationist used to include farmers, loggers, hunters, & fisherman. Conservation means you use the natural resources wisely. Wise is something environnmentalists are not. Thus the need to start calling themselves conservationists.

Every time one of the nazis calls themselves a conservationist they need to be called on it.


24 posted on 03/16/2009 9:18:26 AM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: george76; Grammy

Thanks for the ping George.

They’ve been trying to do this for a long time. There are those who would like to see fishing/hunting banned totally in parks.

The Park Service has only a small percentage of national parks open for hunting. The anti’s goals include closing all parks to these consumptive uses.


25 posted on 03/16/2009 9:20:31 AM PDT by girlangler (Fish Fear Me)
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To: Beelzebubba

I knew all of those depleted uranium rounds I have been hoarding would come in handy some day.


26 posted on 03/16/2009 9:20:44 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Cold Heart

“The definition of conservationist used to include farmers, loggers, hunters, & fisherman. Conservation means you use the natural resources wisely.”

true, and they are trying in various forms to ban farming, logging, hunting and fishing.


27 posted on 03/16/2009 9:20:45 AM PDT by caver (Obama's first goals: allow more killing of innocents and allow the killers of innocents to go free.)
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To: Cold Heart; Grammy; Diana in Wisconsin; jazusamo; george76; proud_yank; billhilly; Flycatcher

You NAILED IT Cold Heart. This needs to be repeated often:

“Enviromental nazis never used the word conservationist until recently. The definition of conservationist used to include farmers, loggers, hunters, & fisherman. Conservation means you use the natural resources wisely. Wise is something environnmentalists are not. Thus the need to start calling themselves conservationists.

Every time one of the nazis calls themselves a conservationist they need to be called on it.


28 posted on 03/16/2009 9:24:25 AM PDT by girlangler (Fish Fear Me)
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To: donmeaker

I do a lot of fishing, and i fish salt water. Everything I use, almost, has lead. It sure would suck if they implement this in a year.

I got together with some friends, and we melted down hundreds of pounds of scrap lead into various lead-based fishing gear. Sinkers, weighted trebel hooks, “bucktails”, all kinds of stuff. I have about a 10 year supply. UGH!


29 posted on 03/16/2009 9:26:15 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (Want to make a conservative angry? Lie to him. Want to make a liberal angry? Tell him the truth)
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To: george76
The requirement is not based on science or simple logic. Lead has been used in firearms for centuries with no ill effects to nature. A quick walk around our nation's Civil War battle fields should be enough to convince. Those within walking distance of my home are veritable Noah's Arks teeming in deer, rabbit, Balk Eagle, animals of every description. Also, “Lead-Free” applies to all components. Without lead styphenate to stabilize your primers, ammo will have a limited shelf life, and its substitute will cost more as well.
30 posted on 03/16/2009 9:27:25 AM PDT by PowderMonkey (Will Work for Ammo)
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To: nomorelurker

Even if you did lose the lead, it’s nearly insoluble, so there is no real danger.

I fish rocky New England waters, and do lose a considerable amount of lead, especially going for blackfish. The lead levels in the water are not elevated, especially not from sportfishing.


31 posted on 03/16/2009 9:29:28 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (Want to make a conservative angry? Lie to him. Want to make a liberal angry? Tell him the truth)
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To: george76
Sportsmen nationwide must immediately contact their U.S. representatives and senators.

Abosolutely, George!

Thanks for the post and ping.

32 posted on 03/16/2009 9:31:06 AM PDT by jazusamo (But there really is no free lunch, except in the world of political rhetoric,.: Thomas Sowell)
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To: DManA

No swimming, no picnicking, no flower picking, no walking on the grass no camping no fishing no fun you tax dollars at work.


33 posted on 03/16/2009 9:32:39 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: george76
The National Park Service has set a goal of harrassing sportsmen by eliminating lead from fishing and hunting gear by 2010.
34 posted on 03/16/2009 9:36:43 AM PDT by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: donmeaker

Interesting. However, my main concern is rifles and pistols, not shotguns. Iron/tungsten would destroy a rifled barrel


35 posted on 03/16/2009 9:38:06 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics="Trickle-up Poverty")
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To: george76

Effectively, it eliminates any hunting of any kind.


36 posted on 03/16/2009 9:38:06 AM PDT by Pistolshot (The Soap-box, The Ballot-box, The Jury-box, And The Cartridge-Box ...we are past 2 of them.)
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To: Beelzebubba
Once they force everyone to switch to solid copper bullets they will magically discover that they blow right through bullet proof vests, then they can ban the “cop killer bullets”!
37 posted on 03/16/2009 9:42:32 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Travis T. OJustice
Some of the lakes around here are over 150 feet deep.

Harmful to ducks? I never heard of divers that feed that deep.

As I understand it lead is heavier than dirt or mud. So what happens to the lead from shot, bullets or lures? It sinks out of sight within weeks if not days or hours when laying on the bottom.

Regulations for the purpose of control of people pure and simple.

38 posted on 03/16/2009 9:43:46 AM PDT by TYVets
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To: george76
Fragments of lead bullets are suspected to contaminate scavenger birds, like ravens and eagles, and lead used as fishing weights could poison waterfowl and other species.

Another draconian regulation based on "suspected" and "could".

Disgusting.

39 posted on 03/16/2009 9:46:53 AM PDT by jimt
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To: jimt

No proof required - just a regulatory agency with a woodie for power.


40 posted on 03/16/2009 9:47:50 AM PDT by jimt
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To: george76
are suspected to contaminate . . . . . and lead used as fishing weights could poison waterfowl . . . .

So let's ban it, just because we can.

Pathetic.

41 posted on 03/16/2009 9:49:29 AM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Beelzebubba

Sure would, but that is why you use the copper jacket...


42 posted on 03/16/2009 10:02:18 AM PDT by donmeaker (You may not be interested in War but War is interested in you.)
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To: Beelzebubba
If copper were as good or better, some shooters (competition, hunters) would already be using it.

As the other poster noted, Barnes-X. Been around a while and, not some, quite a few shooters are using them.

I haven't and don't care to be forced to.

43 posted on 03/16/2009 10:04:58 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: george76

Deranged, all of them. Why don’t we all just sit in our homes with no electricity. Stop driving, stop doing anything. Just sit in our homes and read books or magazines that are on the zer0 approved reading list. This is out of control now.


44 posted on 03/16/2009 10:07:12 AM PDT by mojitojoe ( Idiots elected a Marxist ideologue with narcissistic personality disorder & America is dying.)
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To: Pistolshot
Effectively, it eliminates any hunting of any kind.

If hunting and fishing are outlawed, just think of all the taxes we wouldn't have to pay for the wardens, management, etc. Oh, wait, it woulddn't even come close to the lost tax revenue sportsmen pump into the economy with their sporting goods, restaurant, RV, camping, hotel purchases, etc.

This isn't just anti-sportsmen, it's anti-business!

45 posted on 03/16/2009 10:13:32 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (Want to make a conservative angry? Lie to him. Want to make a liberal angry? Tell him the truth)
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To: Joe Brower

Be Ever Vigilant!


46 posted on 03/16/2009 10:16:37 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: donmeaker

Sure would, but that is why you use the copper jacket...


Are you suggesting that a solid tungsten bullet with a copper jacket and no lead would work fine in an ordinary rifle?

(Never mind the extraordinary cost difference).


47 posted on 03/16/2009 10:37:41 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Obamanomics="Trickle-up Poverty")
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To: george76

They are trying to GET AROUND the concealed carry legalization that Bush implemented, by BANNING THE AMMO!


48 posted on 03/16/2009 10:37:48 AM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: Beelzebubba
Iron/tungsten would destroy a rifled barrel

Not in a properly saboted round

49 posted on 03/16/2009 11:03:05 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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To: Beelzebubba
Are you suggesting that a solid tungsten bullet with a copper jacket and no lead would work fine in an ordinary rifle?

Not as well as uranium with an aluminum jacket. Actually these were tried by the military and although they worked fine in a .50 cal, they had a tendency to turn sideways in a .30 barrel and destroy the barrel. Of course they were using a plastic jacket that would fly off upon leaving the barrel.

50 posted on 03/16/2009 11:06:50 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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