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Unionize or Die
The Wall Street Journal ^ | 03-19-09 | WSJ Editorial Staff

Posted on 03/19/2009 8:39:55 PM PDT by GOP_Lady

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To: jaydubya2

.....While I see my non-union counterparts lose benefits, pay, retirement, and get terminated without notification. I’m not taking sides, there are pros and cons to both systems, I’m just stating my experience.....

Those are exactly the reasons that unions have forced jobs out of the country. Companies unable to control the associated costs noted are doomed.


81 posted on 03/24/2009 6:16:50 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . John Galt hell !...... where is Francisco d’Anconia)
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To: bert
Those are exactly the reasons that unions have forced jobs out of the country. Companies unable to control the associated costs noted are doomed.

Yes, that is true in some cases. But poor management also plays a role. Not all unions are holding their companies hostage.
82 posted on 03/24/2009 6:34:38 AM PDT by jaydubya2
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To: jaydubya2

......But poor management also plays a role.....

That is the big lie, the profound union rationalization. The existence of a union makes management unable to manage effectively and completely.


83 posted on 03/24/2009 7:07:53 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . John Galt hell !...... where is Francisco d’Anconia)
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To: papertyger
"Feminism sounds pretty reasonable too, when all you think about is doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs. But guess what happens when you’re a ditch digger paired up with a woman making the same wage you are. "

Your union fights to lower the standard for ditch digging, forces management to hire/promote more women and your ditch digging company loses contracts to less expensive foriegn-owned businesses that hire immigrant labor?

84 posted on 03/24/2009 7:24:35 AM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: bert
"The existence of a union makes management unable to manage effectively and completely."

It's not a lie in all cases. Sometimes you don't want incompetent managers to be able to manage effectively and completely.
85 posted on 03/24/2009 7:39:36 AM PDT by jaydubya2
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To: cartoonistx
I'm not going to waste my time being reasonable if your idea of a meaningful response is nothing but mangling my analogies.

Now if it's a flame war you're looking for I'm always up for that ... provided you're alot more interesting than you've demonstrated so far.

86 posted on 03/24/2009 8:47:54 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger

I refuse to argue with somebody who only uses emotional arguments. It should come as no surprise you don’t want to argue on logic. I don’t get the thing about mail, either.


87 posted on 03/24/2009 9:52:30 AM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Pretending the Admin Moderator doesn't exist will result in suspension.)
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To: jaydubya2

You fail to realize the unions are merely hired help. They should have no voice in the management or decisions.

If they don’t like or don’t agree they should hit the road.

The owners are the only source of decisions on management


88 posted on 03/24/2009 10:00:38 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . John Galt hell !...... where is Francisco d’Anconia)
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To: bert
"You fail to realize the unions are merely hired help. They should have no voice in the management or decisions."

That is true for traditional unions. The company I work for has a different arrangement, they encourage suggestions and participation from union members, management intimately has the final say, but they have discussions with the labor force and solicit ideas before proceeding. I've worked in both "new work systems" and traditional unions, and the new work system type of union/management agreement is defiantly more beneficial. We are all mearly hired help, management and union, we both have our jobs at risk if we make poor decisions.
89 posted on 03/24/2009 10:15:16 AM PDT by jaydubya2
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To: Cyber Liberty

The “mail thing” is you answering a post written to somebody else.

As for your “refusal” ... it’s not my fault you cannot tell the difference between an emotional argument, and an argument that stirs emotions.

There’s a father/husband that’s dead now, and that death was not only preventable, but SHOULD have been prevented by adherence to OSHA standards that were not enforced. And you want to haughtily dismiss those facts as an “emotional argument?”

Only if you’re a sociopath.


90 posted on 03/24/2009 11:15:59 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
You asked, I answered. It is no theory that outmoded and self-promoting unions have lost favor with American workers. Most everyone familiar with labor's methods can recall witnessing thieves, layabouts and shirkers keeping their jobs undeservedly because the union "fought" for them. Perhaps they know of someone who was accosted in their workplace by union "brothers" who thought they were working too fast or because they weren't "rank & file" enough.They might even remember the businesses that used to be in their neighborhoods but now are not because high union wages drove the owner offshore.

If labor had evolved even a little bit during the last century they might still have a purpose in the modern global workplace. Unions could have become the gaurentor of a safe, efficient and productive workforce...the cream of workers! But that's not where they went. They could have taken upon their respected organisations the burden of providing quality benefits to their membership, thus relieving the costs to businesses with the forsight to use union labor. But that wasn't in the plan, either. Union bosses did not want to provide a quality service or a reliable product. They wanted to be bosses! They wanted to direct and dictate to the very businesses their membership sold their labors to. They wanted, in short, that which they did not own and had not earned! They inadvertantly caused much of the automation and robotic development of the last century and for that, I supose, some congratulations are in order. But The AFL/CIO, SEIU etc. are definately not on the side of the workers. They are, today, on the side of bigger government and mostly of themselves!

91 posted on 03/24/2009 2:11:55 PM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: cartoonistx
You asked, I answered.

I don't know what one-man play you think you're the star of, but you might want to come back to reality when the dialog doesn't follow your script. I asked you nothing. What's more, your little screed here, lacking in anything approaching an actual detail or fact, is demagoguery BY DEFINITION!

Your ability to ignore the facts of the article (i.e. one very dead family man) to heroically pontificate out of your rather shallow imagination for "truth, justice, and the American way" as conceived by people who think of the aforementioned dead family man as a fungible commodity at best, and a regulatory headache at worst, is indeed worthy of the banana republic this country is becoming.

92 posted on 03/25/2009 3:13:37 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
"But guess what happens when you’re a ditch digger paired up with a woman making the same wage you are."

That, my proto-commie friend, is a question! You assumed your union rhetoric would be accepted without challenge here and you were wrong. As to the death mentioned in the article... You're the one who assumes that "there but for unions goeth us all"! I worked in a union shop for over 30 years and GUESS WHAT!? Accidents happened there all the time. Probably as much if not more than anywhere else. The only difference was that someone causing an accident was not immediately fired for his stupidity. You see the union protected the stupid!

By the way...why are you here?

93 posted on 03/25/2009 5:57:12 AM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: cartoonistx
That, my proto-commie friend, is a question!

No, my functionally illiterate friend: it's a rhetorical question. And even for arguments sake, if we pretended you aren't desperately trying to figure out how to avoid looking like an idiot, and it was a genuine interrogative, YOU DIDN'T ANSWER IT!

You assumed your union rhetoric would be accepted without challenge here and you were wrong.

What kind of two-bit, cliched, melodramatic TV dialog were you raised on?

Thinking that anyone could advocate for unions on FReeRepubic, and expect not to be challenged has GOT to be one of the three most asinine statements I've ever seen written here.

As to the death mentioned in the article... You're the one who assumes that "there but for unions goeth us all"

You need to go to a website called google.com and type the word "strawman" into the little box that shows up in the middle of the screen. I know you're unfamiliar with the term, but everybody else out there that has more than a G.E.D. knows it's something you act like the other guy said, because you can't beat what he really said. So it's real obvious what you're trying to do, even if what you're arguing makes about as much sense as those bozos who tried to convince everyone second-hand smoke was actually MORE dangerous than primary smoke.

I mean really, how much sense does it take to figure out management is going to take fewer regulatory risks with someone looking over their shoulder than not?

By the way...why are you here?

What? You never heard of a social conservative?

94 posted on 03/25/2009 8:07:13 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
You, sir, are a *(WARNING: NON-TV DIALOG AHEAD)* class 1A rectum! Your very first comment on this very post asked whether the originator of the thread didn't think a union shop would be safer than a non-union shop. Resonding to that "straw man" (one of the points of the IBD editorial BTW) has been the object of every opposing poster you've engaged thus far. As to your rhetorical question, my answer was supposed to be a humorous needle to a very unfocused remark. In your on-going flame war you've proved to be not just un-focused but humorless as well!

If you want to continue responding with ad hominum (and frankly ignorant) barbs go ahead. But your self-charaterization as a social conservative needs correction. You left the "ist" off of social.

95 posted on 03/25/2009 2:01:46 PM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: papertyger
The most pitiful myth is that the Union protects workers from the company. It's pretty hard to convince someone an idea is a "myth" when they've seen it with their own eyes.

That make the rest of your post nothing but a screed.

I'm sorry I didn't respond to you after you disparaging comment.

I would like to give you my first hand knowledge of Trade Unionism. Back in the mid Seventies when your favorite liberal President Jimmy Carter was attempting to destroy our nation, I worked for a very small manufacturing company in rural Georgia that had recently been purchased by a very large corporation. The buyout apparently drew the Union organizers like flies.

The first secret meeting was called at a common location, I believe it was a local Union hall. The man in charge was a New Jersey thug that makes Tony Saprano seem like Poppin' Fresh - "The Pillsbury Doughboy!" His face could have stopped the Saturn V in mid-boost. I would not be surprised that he had first hand knowledge of Jimmy Hoffa's resting place. He asked me some really pointed questions in front of my coworkers just to watch me squirm. In retrospect, I'm sure he had me pegged as the Company snitch! Of course he was right, and I told the president of the company who the ringleaders were the next day.

The sad and ugly truth was that all of the line bosses were in favor of the Union and it was clearly pointless for the company to do anything to fight it. I was very disappointed in my gullible dear friends and neighbors that were lead down the garden path by this subhuman trog. I soon enlisted in the Air Force while most of my coworkers waited for their pink slips. When the Union announced the craft functions and grades my job was only a step above menial labor, assuredly calculated as retribution for my lack of support. I left under the delayed enlistment program as the assembly lines began to shutdown. The company did not have the financial resources to pay for Union wages and benifits so soon after a corporate buyout. The plant closed a year or two later and never made it back to one-fifth of the production rate that it consistently reached before the Union ran it out of business.

The next first hand knowledge that I have was the experience of my sister-in-law's husband. He was a loyal Union man and the son of a loyal Union man that had worked up through the ranks into management and retired comfortably. When the strike talk began he was right there at the Union Hall every night to support his brother's fraternal cause. When word went around that one of the craft-members was thinking of crossing the line, he and some buddies went to make it clear the man should consider his actions carefully. They sent a rifle shot through the man's living room window. Of course they were caught, the Union settled on a new contract without going out at all. The Company demanded the Union provide a scapegoat for its actions and my s-i-l's husband faced a felony conviction and no job. Even though their loyal Union man did the Union's dirty work he was hung out to dry.

So much for Unions protecting workers from the company! While these are anecdotal observations, I have been listening to simular stories for the past forty plus years of the ways Unions harm our society. It is the cruelest vile evil joke that a Union cares for anything more than the Union. The craftsman be damned and the devil take the hindmost! To me it is like a boy that has been beaten by his stepfather. The courts come in and rescue the boy. He is then placed in a foster home where the couple treats foster-care like a business, where they have ten kids at a hundred dollars a head and they still beat the kids even if they try to complain about it. It might have been a good idea at one time until the law of unintended consequences reared it's ugly head.

I'll take my chances with the company, all criminal Unions should be PATCO'ed simply for the fact that they exist! (delivered in my best Charlton Heston on the beach voice) DT - DTOTH!

96 posted on 03/30/2009 9:19:58 AM PDT by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: higgmeister

Sorry sport...unless you’ve got something to offer that beats “dead,” you’re just a kappo.


97 posted on 03/30/2009 1:21:56 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
Sorry sport...unless you’ve got something to offer that beats “dead,” you’re just a kappo.

That's a little cryptic for my understanding.

The very bottom line is that Trade Unions share the same rallying cry as Communism; "Workers of the world, unite!"

Even before Trade Unionism was legally sanctioned by "Progressive Republican" crusaders in our nation, it was actively working toward the destruction of our Capitalist way of life.

Soon after Trade Unionism was legally protected by governmental fiat, democrat minded thugs joined in the vast protection racket with threats, bribes, intimidation, racketeering, misappropriation of Union monies and many other criminal activities.

How many Union workers will never intheir whole working lives advance on the job because they just are not in the Union Steward's little personality clique?! You see a grand benevolent brotherhood but how many brothers have been maimed or murdered for going against the Union bosses!?

You are clearly so enmeshed in that communistic lifestyle that you will never acknowledge the tremendous harm the greedy Trade Unions have done to our American Industry as manifest so completely in the destruction of the Detroit Auto industry. You will never acknowledge the decades long flight of American Companies to other countries where factories are not forced by a Union to pay workers to sit idle for hours a day to inflate the overtime budget or pay a Union worker twenty five dollars an hour just to sweep a floor.

So, it turns out you are assuredly the cruel kappo striving to keep your victimized Union Brothers in your Trade Union Gulag until it falls into the pits of.....
Well, until you bring US all to an ignominious end.

98 posted on 03/30/2009 8:30:17 PM PDT by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: dearolddad

bridges still fall down in states the have heavy union membership(IE:MN)


99 posted on 04/05/2009 9:52:44 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (ACORN:American Corruption for Obama Right Now)
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