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FReeper Book Club: Atlas Shrugged, Wyatt's Torch
A Publius Essay | 21 March 2009 | Publius

Posted on 03/21/2009 7:41:56 AM PDT by Publius

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To: FrdmLvr

Read this and get spooked:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2212358/posts


81 posted on 03/22/2009 7:26:02 PM PDT by George Smiley (They're not drinking the Kool-Aid any more. They're eating it straight out of the packet.)
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To: George Smiley

And this...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2212377/posts


82 posted on 03/22/2009 7:54:06 PM PDT by George Smiley (They're not drinking the Kool-Aid any more. They're eating it straight out of the packet.)
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To: Mad-Margaret

You’re kidding right? George Bailey lent money to people he KNEW were going to pay it back. Like the cab driver. George knew he was a hard worker and kept his promises. That’s a low risk. No one (at least as shown in the movie) in that fictional town was a welfare bum. Well, maybe the hottie, Violet, but George only gave her some of his PERSONAL money. It was old Potter who saw a chance to literally LOOT George when he stole the bank’s money from the old foolish uncle.


83 posted on 03/23/2009 3:22:44 PM PDT by Clock King
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To: Bigun

I’ve been posting that for a while. Every time a stupid new law is made. Like getting a bikini wax is now illegal in some state. Why? Who wasted time thinking up such a law?


84 posted on 03/23/2009 3:28:27 PM PDT by Clock King
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To: whodathunkit

Upon reflection, I realized that I didn’t really answer your question in my previous post.

If citizens really understood the powers they have as jurors or the law required judges instruct them as to those powers courtrooms would be vastly different places. There would be, IMHO, far fewer jury trials for one thing.


85 posted on 03/23/2009 5:55:59 PM PDT by Bigun ("It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire)
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To: Bigun; whodathunkit
This is an interesting topic and would be most helpful when we get to the trial of Hank Rearden in the chapter titled "The Sanction of the Victim."

You fellows might want to do some research on the Fully Informed Jury Association and their treatment by judges and prosecutors.

86 posted on 03/23/2009 6:05:12 PM PDT by Publius (The Quadri-Metallic Standard: Gold and silver for commerce, lead and brass for protection.)
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To: Publius

And that principle (jury nullification) was at work in Howard Roark’s trial in The Fountainhead.

How about that book for our next cook club selection.

Kirk


87 posted on 03/23/2009 6:34:55 PM PDT by woodnboats
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To: Bigun
Thanks Bigun for your thoughtful replies.

The reason that I mentioned jury nullification is to point out that all of our options have not yet been exercised.

An example would be the refusal of a fully informed jury to convict a person of illegal firearm possession even though the letter of the law had been violated. If the possession had nothing to do with the commission or intent of a crime, is it conscionable to convict?

As far as fewer jury trials, I believe it could work either way. Some may think that they have a better chance with a jury unbound by statute law. I believe though (as I think our founders did) that the majority of jurors would be aware that they have to live in the same society as the person on trial once released.

In Atlas Shrugged, so far, there does not seem to be any checks to the powers that be. Hank Rearden only grudgingly had a lobbyist in Washington and even then he didn't keep informed about the direction of government. This seems to be a character flaw in that he is too focused on the production of his metal and not fully aware of the impact of the social changes that are occurring. Rearden certainly has the financial ability to fight but chooses not to.

88 posted on 03/23/2009 6:50:48 PM PDT by whodathunkit (Shrugging as I leave for the Gulch)
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To: Publius

Thanks for the suggestion!

I have been aware of FIJA for many years now but will refresh my acquaintance as you have suggested.


89 posted on 03/23/2009 6:50:55 PM PDT by Bigun ("It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire)
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To: whodathunkit
The reason that I mentioned jury nullification is to point out that all of our options have not yet been exercised.

Point well made and taken.however that option has been exercised periodically and often not for the reasons you or I would suggest it should have been. (Can you say O.J. Simpson?)

90 posted on 03/23/2009 6:57:02 PM PDT by Bigun ("It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire)
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To: whodathunkit
In Atlas Shrugged, so far, there does not seem to be any checks to the powers that be.

In this coming Saturday's chapter, we're going to run into one particular check. And we're going to just barely touch on another, from which a later chapter is named.

91 posted on 03/23/2009 7:27:18 PM PDT by Publius (The Quadri-Metallic Standard: Gold and silver for commerce, lead and brass for protection.)
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To: Publius

Publius,

My wife and I finally caught up with the group! Woo hoo! She read to her kids and family so much out loud growing up that I decided to read it out loud to catch up, since the logistics of trading a single copy of the book didn’t work for me. What I’ve found is that it helps me to concentrate and not lapse off during some of the less interesting passages and I often get editorial commentary from her while reading. So that’s working out well. And she enjoys kicking back and listening, so it’s a win-win.

I had some commentary on some of last week’s topics. Is the proper etiquette to put those back in last week’s thread or has everyone moved on from there and we’re putting all comments into this week?

I’ll get back to the current topics in another post.

Great idea and great job you’re doing with this!

Ted


92 posted on 03/23/2009 8:09:22 PM PDT by tstarr
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To: tstarr

Place your comments in the thread on that particular chapter. A whole lot of people will be playing catch-up like yourselves.


93 posted on 03/23/2009 8:14:12 PM PDT by Publius (The Quadri-Metallic Standard: Gold and silver for commerce, lead and brass for protection.)
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To: MtnClimber
Eugene Lawson reminds me of Anthony Mozillo, the CEO of Countrywide Financial. He made it a point to figure out how to make home mortgage loans to those who were unworthy. He never seemed to realize that making loans to those who could never hope to repay them was only setting the poor into bankruptcy.

More likely just didn't care. The market has gotten distorted enough so the consequences for bad or short sighted decisions fall upon others, so what the heck?

94 posted on 03/23/2009 9:59:47 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: MtnClimber
Thus, the current protocol intentionally creates an environment where borrowers with lower FICO scores are subject to being disproportionately affected by the manual underwriting process. I say we need to amend these systems to do more than just approve the “cream of the crop,” by creating a system that says “no” only to those deemed unwilling to make their mortgage payments.

Geez, if ever there were an Orwellian statement.

95 posted on 03/23/2009 10:04:29 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Publius
They agreed to be raped if the price was right.

It's not rape if they get paid.

96 posted on 03/23/2009 10:08:11 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Publius
That was me in a reply to another FReeper.

Ahh... So, then I must've imagined that Rand wrote it.

97 posted on 03/23/2009 10:10:03 PM PDT by Tired of Taxes (Dad, I will always think of you.)
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To: Bigun
I can also tell you that it is my personal belief that it was the intention of our founders that jurors have exactly the power you describe - to judge both the facts AND the law - and make their judgments accordingly.

It's more than a personal belief. It's a known and established fact. SCOTUS's take seems to be "Yes, nullification is a right of a juror. However, as an individual citizen, he is on top of the Constitutional heap and has the duty to know what his rights are. Therefore, a judge is under no obligation to spell it out for him."

98 posted on 03/23/2009 10:22:45 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Still Thinking

I made a mistake in my post. It is Angelo Mozilo not “Anthony Mozillo”. No coffee before posting, but the basic message is understandable.

This is the same liberal supporter Angilo Mozilo who had the “Friends of Angelo” financing to offer great rates to liberals like Christopher Dodd. The stockholders got the shaft when his libtard social engineering plan failed.


99 posted on 03/23/2009 10:28:16 PM PDT by MtnClimber (Bernard Madoff's ponzi scheme looks remarkably similar to the way Social Security works)
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To: MtnClimber
Thus, the current protocol intentionally creates an environment where borrowers with lower FICO scores are subject to being disproportionately affected by the manual underwriting process.

I loved this bizarre statement. It's kind of like saying that actually scoring math tests creates an environment where stupid people who can't do math are subject to being "disproportionately affected". Which, sadly, has actually been said. That other part about discriminating in the mortgage approval process against those who won't make their mortgage payments is just too surreal to even comment on.

100 posted on 03/23/2009 10:35:00 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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