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The Permian Extinction: Good Science, Bad Assumptions
ICR ^ | March 21, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 03/21/2009 1:02:49 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The Permian Extinction: Good Science, Bad Assumptions

by Brian Thomas, M.S.*

Ninety percent of marine and 70 percent of terrestrial creatures perished suddenly in an event variously called the Permian extinction, the Permian–Triassic (P-Tr) extinction, or the Great Dying. The calamity’s cause, referred to as the K-T event, remains unknown, even though asteroid impact has been in vogue.

At least, this is the account that has been repeated for several decades. Now, a recently-published study is showing that evidence of the Permian extinction is not limited to a single rock stratum.1 The whole story must be rewritten...

(Excerpt) Read more at icr.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; evolution; goodgodimnutz; intelligentdesign; junkscience; oldearthspeculation; permianextinction; theskyisfalling; waronfaith

1 posted on 03/21/2009 1:02:49 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Finny; vladimir998; Coyoteman; allmendream; LeGrande; GunRunner; cacoethes_resipisco; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 03/21/2009 1:03:44 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

I’m gonna go with asteroid on this one. Second choice is global warming.


3 posted on 03/21/2009 1:06:31 PM PDT by exist
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To: exist

==I’m gonna go with asteroid on this one. Second choice is global warming.

Why not a global flood?


4 posted on 03/21/2009 1:11:15 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
==I’m gonna go with asteroid on this one. Second choice is global warming. Why not a global flood?

1. Asteroid.
2. Global Warming.
3. Great Flood.
4. Lack of Regulation.

5 posted on 03/21/2009 1:12:48 PM PDT by exist
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To: GodGunsGuts

They had it right the first time. The k-t event was the cretaceous-tertiary and is a different extention event than the Permiam-Triassic. The k-t was 65ma and ended the reign of the dinos.


6 posted on 03/21/2009 1:15:30 PM PDT by ruiner
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To: ruiner

Oh, after reading the source it is apparent why they don’t distinguish between events that occurred almost 200ma apart.


7 posted on 03/21/2009 1:17:04 PM PDT by ruiner
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To: ruiner

Oh, after reading the source it is apparent why they don’t distinguish between events that occurred almost 200ma apart.


8 posted on 03/21/2009 1:17:32 PM PDT by ruiner
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To: GodGunsGuts
Why not a global flood?

"Ninety percent of marine and 70 percent of terrestrial creatures perished suddenly"

Marine creatures would have survived, and land critters would have died.

This killed plenty of both, indeed even more marine creatures than land creatures died. This is opposite of what anyone who thinks it through would expect from a flood.

9 posted on 03/21/2009 1:18:38 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: exist

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible’s accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

For more, plus very interesting table (a little further down), see:

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html


10 posted on 03/21/2009 1:24:30 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

So does New Orleans.

11 posted on 03/21/2009 1:28:58 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: null and void

The Flood was so violent and so much more massive than most conceive of, let alone accept, that the sudden burial of sea creatures beneath muddy waves of gargantuan proportions is nearly impossible to understand unless one understands the dynamics of the Flood.


12 posted on 03/21/2009 1:32:35 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: GodGunsGuts; null and void

Isn’t the Chinese pictograph for “flood” a boat (or vessel) plus the symbol for eight people (literally “mouths”)?


13 posted on 03/21/2009 1:35:51 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: Cedric
So, a world wide flood is the only possible explanation of mass death?

Were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in a flood?

I pity one who worships an all powerful God, while blandly insisting that he can only function in one narrowly defined way...

14 posted on 03/21/2009 1:37:59 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: Cedric; chinaboy

Dunno. I only know a few characters.

Let me ping a native speaker...


15 posted on 03/21/2009 1:39:24 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: null and void

==So does New Orleans

Not just flood stories, but flood stories that closely match the biblical flood story, complete with warning from God, ark, global flood, etc.


16 posted on 03/21/2009 1:40:03 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Oh, come on now! New Orleans was warned by NOAA!


17 posted on 03/21/2009 1:44:10 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: Cedric; null and void
"The Flood was so violent and so much more massive than most conceive of, let alone accept"

That's so true - don't mess with hydraulics! Drive a Prius through 3 - 4" of fast moving water and see what happens...

18 posted on 03/21/2009 1:48:02 PM PDT by uncommonsense
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To: Cedric

I have no idea. If you have a link for that, it would be most appreciated!


19 posted on 03/21/2009 1:48:53 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: uncommonsense
Drive a Prius through 3 - 4" of fast moving water and see what happens...

You get it in the shorts?

20 posted on 03/21/2009 1:48:59 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 61 of our national holiday from reality.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20070311.htm

This is as close as I can come, right now.

I’m off to church!


21 posted on 03/21/2009 1:56:40 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: uncommonsense
Drive a Prius on dry land and see how many people pass you and deliver a very special salute as they speed by!
22 posted on 03/21/2009 1:58:17 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: Cedric; null and void

Oh, come on guys... I just grabbed the first small car name I had in short term memory. Ok, drive any 3,000 lb passenger car thru a few inches of fast running water and you’ll experience the power of a flood (no, I have no direct experience). Scale that up to a global flood and it’s easy to see how vast portions of marine life could be buried / annihilated since most life is close to the surface and not too far from major land masses.


23 posted on 03/21/2009 2:15:45 PM PDT by uncommonsense
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To: uncommonsense

Amen.

{Just a little humor on my part.}

Now I’m late for church!!


24 posted on 03/21/2009 2:19:27 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: GodGunsGuts

Nah!

It happened before 1/20/09 so you guessed it...

IT’S BUSH’S FAULT!


25 posted on 03/21/2009 2:27:07 PM PDT by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar
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To: GodGunsGuts

Different rocks are forming at the same time. A sandstone can be forming at the same time as a limestone or a shale.

It dpends on the local depositional environment.

What would be odd is if the Permian extinction was found in only one particular type of rock. It should be found in all rocks formed during that period.

And it is.


26 posted on 03/21/2009 2:33:25 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: GodGunsGuts

Some of those flood traditions are listed in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, easily accessed on-line.
But where do you think all the water came from? I know. We’ve discussed this before but not in connection with The Deluge, as I recall.


27 posted on 03/21/2009 2:43:32 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Well we know that the fountains of the great deep opened, we also know that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and I have also read speculation that comets may have also been involved. Where do you think all the water came from?


28 posted on 03/21/2009 2:50:03 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: count-your-change

There was a .. what would you call it,, a vapor canopy that surrounded the Earth, and all that water came crashing down,, least thats what I’ve thought anyway...


29 posted on 03/21/2009 2:52:43 PM PDT by Mmogamer (<This space for lease>)
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To: Cedric
Isn’t the Chinese pictograph for “flood” a boat (or vessel) plus the symbol for eight people (literally “mouths”)?

No. Feel free to confirm here.

30 posted on 03/21/2009 2:59:56 PM PDT by Caesar Soze
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To: Mmogamer
And all this water receded where? It didn't go back to being a vapor canopy.

Where was this drain that the floodwaters flowed into so that dry land could be exposed again?

Remember, to flood the earth, we need water over 5 miles higher than the current sea level.

31 posted on 03/21/2009 3:04:54 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: ruiner
I thought that first sentence looked funny. It's been years since I've read Jurassic Park, but I remember the K-T event was at the end of the Cretaceous, and the Triassic was a couple of aeons or ages or epochs or whatever before that. Why should one trust an article that gets such a simple fact of prehistory wrong?

I wonder what Mr. Thomas's MS is in, and where he got it?

32 posted on 03/21/2009 3:08:10 PM PDT by Caesar Soze
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To: Caesar Soze
Probably the answer to my question: http://www.icr.edu/home/

"Pursuant to California and Federal law, ICRGS currently offers an M.S. in Science Education, mostly online, to qualified students who are not Texas residents. ICR is currently examining its legal options regarding how it can best serve the educational 'gaps' of Texas residents."

I'ma gonna buy my own .edu domain and give myself a master's degree so I can start dropping post-nominals on my sig line.

Caesar Soze, MSBS

33 posted on 03/21/2009 3:14:51 PM PDT by Caesar Soze
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To: Caesar Soze

The Permian/Triassic boundary is correct. There was also a Jurassic/Cretaceous boundary and then a Cretaceous/Tertiary boundary.

This article ridiculously spins the already known and predictable facts about the Permian extinction, but I think it’s at least talking about the correct geologic era.


34 posted on 03/21/2009 3:16:05 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: GodGunsGuts

My ex-wife micropaleontologist is working on the P-T boundary, and this new info that the extinction spanned a long time period is electrifying the world-wide paleontology community in a positive way, pointing them to exciting new research and ideas. But I’m sorry, they aren’t huddled in a atheistic conspiracy to keep any mention of Noah’s Flood out of consideration - just like NTSB accident investigators aren’t in a consipiracy to prevent Satan from being considered as a possible cause of air crashes.


35 posted on 03/21/2009 3:18:14 PM PDT by PC99
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To: PC99

Hmmm...I just reread the article, and wouldn’t ya know it, the author didn’t mention the word “conspiracy” once. He said this new discovery is good science marred by bad assumptions. BIG DIFFERENCE!


36 posted on 03/21/2009 3:22:05 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts; Mmogamer

Well, the apostle Peter said that there was an earth standing in the midst of water and out of water and by those (notice the phrase) means the world of that time suffered destruction.

I think the “water above the expanse” of Gen. 1:8 is that water that fell during the Deluge and which Peter talks about. (2 Peter 3:5,6)


37 posted on 03/21/2009 3:27:23 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Interesting verse:

2 Peter 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

This is one of the verses that Dr. Humphreys bases his white hole cosmology on, in which he proposes that God may have created the Earth (and possibly the entire Universe of stars and planets) out of water :o)


38 posted on 03/21/2009 4:38:02 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Dog Gone
Water has weight and lots of water has lots of weight so what would the effect of the great weight of all that water on the crust of the earth be?
Possibly depress some areas like the miles deep ocean trenches and pushing up other areas like mountains.

So, remember just as glaciers push down the land under them so might water in sufficient quantities and who says the mountains and sea levels had the same height differential before the Deluge as now?

39 posted on 03/21/2009 4:59:46 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Right. And the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are mentioned both BEFORE and AFTER the Flood.

Like the rest of the world changed dramatically, but those two rivers weren’t affected.


40 posted on 03/21/2009 5:09:47 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: GodGunsGuts
According to the link I gave you, “ark” or big ship is comprised of vessel, eight and people. Interesting.

“Flood” is comprised of total and water but, in turn “total” is comprised of eight, united and earth.

Most interesting!

And, remember, these ancient pictographs were developed BEFORE moses transcribed Genesis!

41 posted on 03/21/2009 5:29:48 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: GodGunsGuts

Yes, I think I vaguely recall a Dr. Humphreys.
Peter’s comment about “by those means” I wanted to call your attention to. “by those means”? What means? The water that the earth had above the expanse and those beneath the expanse, the “flood gates of the heavens and the springs of the watery deep” of Gen. 7:11.

If poetical expression is preferred see Job 38:9, wherein Job gets an attitude adjustment as God explains He put a ‘cloud around the earth like a swaddling blanket’ as He recounts Gen.1:6,7.

Please note that Peter is not suggesting the earth is composed of water but rather that earth stood both out of the water and in the water as the next verse shows.


42 posted on 03/21/2009 5:44:26 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Dog Gone

Who said those two rivers were not affected? Not the Bible. Not me nor anyone else that I know of. By the description in Genesis the topology of the land was greatly changed.

Being called by the same name BEFORE and AFTER the flood is hardly surprising as we called rivers that have changed dramatically by their best known name.

The Mississippi has changed its course over the years. But we still refer to it by the same name although the river of today is far different than pre-Columbus.

Apparently you did not read the account in Genesis any too closely, right?


43 posted on 03/21/2009 6:05:07 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Wrong. I’ve read it many times.

You want it both ways. You want the earth’s surface to be dramatically changed by a flood five miles deep, but you want two rivers to be recognizable afterward.

I have a hunch you want the Grand Canyon to be caused by the Flood instead of the accepted scientific explanation, right?


44 posted on 03/21/2009 7:56:49 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
You want it both ways. You want the earth’s surface to be dramatically changed by a flood five miles deep, but you want two rivers to be recognizable afterward.

You didn't read his post correctly.

For example, I've gone fossil hunting in a town near London, on the Thames river.

In Ontario.

45 posted on 03/21/2009 8:32:20 PM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970

I’d be more convinced if you went fossil hunting on the Tigris near Baghdad, Alberta.


46 posted on 03/21/2009 8:49:11 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


47 posted on 03/21/2009 9:19:58 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dog Gone
In addition to your many obvious talents, you can read my mind too? To the point that you can put words in my mouth?

I said nothing about a five mile deep flood, that's your assertion, not mine. And dramatic change does not mean something would be unrecognizable OR that perhaps one place might not be changed as much as another OR that the same name would be given to a newly formed river in the same general area.
Who knows on what basis the Tigris and Euphrates were called such after the Deluge? They were and the Bible is silent on the how and why. Probably because it really is of no importance.

Grand Canyon? I have no certain idea what made it, evidently a variety of processes were involved. “the accepted scientific explanation,” is as much a guess as an explanation.

48 posted on 03/21/2009 9:28:12 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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