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Stone Blades Cut Back Evolutionary Dates
ICR ^ | April 10, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 04/10/2009 8:17:18 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Stone Blades Cut Back Evolutionary Dates

by Brian Thomas, M.S.*

Evolutionary anthropologists once thought that stone knives were developed in the late Stone Age, around 40,000 years ago. That figure was later revised to 200,000, around the Middle Stone Age, when stone blades were discovered in lower strata.

Now stone blades have been found in Kenyan rock layers dated at about 500,000 years old according to evolutionary estimates.1 Thus, the original claim that “40,000 years ago, man made his first stone implements” was off by over 92 percent, suggesting that evolutionary depictions of human history are unreliable....

(Excerpt) Read more at icr.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; evolution; genesis; goodgodimnutz; icrfrauds; idiocy; idjunkscience; intelligentdesign
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1 posted on 04/10/2009 8:17:19 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 04/10/2009 8:17:46 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

ICR: “Discovery of 500,000 year old tools helps prove earth is only 6000 years old!”

Wonder if the Craftsman warranty is still good?


3 posted on 04/10/2009 8:22:29 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: GodGunsGuts

As usual, Brian Thomas M.S.* doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Look up Oldowan.


4 posted on 04/10/2009 8:24:12 AM PDT by stormer
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To: GodGunsGuts

Keep lookin’ boys


5 posted on 04/10/2009 8:32:10 AM PDT by the long march
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To: stormer

I think he makes two points: early man left only the very slighest traces, and two, the gap between man and the other primates is unbridgeable except at a material level and even that by an exercise of human thought. It is a bit like trying to trace the personal history of some derelict by looking at his bones a hundred years after he is buried in a pauper’s grave. Some things are unknowable. “Dust thou art and to dust shalt thou return. “


6 posted on 04/10/2009 8:42:26 AM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: Larry Lucido
And the long-held belief of when these tools were introduced being off by hundreds of thousands of years? That helps prove...uh...that these guys really don't know much at all. Speculation for fun and profit!

I'm just waiting for someone to dig up a picture of our alien overlords from 99999999 years ago. That ought to be a hoot.

7 posted on 04/10/2009 8:44:41 AM PDT by DesertSapper (God, Family, Country . . . . . . . . . . and dead terrorists!!!)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Here are the "blades":

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/402/2

8 posted on 04/10/2009 8:45:28 AM PDT by theymakemesick (Buraq (buh- rok) Winged creature that carried mohammed on his Night Journey from Mecca to Jerusalem)
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To: stormer
I'm beginning to wonder if Brian Thomas M.S.* actually exists. His name does sound frighteningly unimaginative.
9 posted on 04/10/2009 8:46:05 AM PDT by Boxen (There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Since frogs taste like chichen, then dinosaurs tasted like chicken. Big pieces of chicken. Of course they had to be cut up before going to the barbie.


10 posted on 04/10/2009 8:48:30 AM PDT by BobS
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To: GodGunsGuts
That figure was later revised to 200,000, around the Middle Stone Age

I respectfully suggest that the author doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "stone age". It is impossible for hominids to start using tools in the middle of the stone age since the stone age describes the entire period of hominids using stone tools. Hence, they could not be considered to begin using stone tools in the "middle" stone age.

Archaeology is concerned with the origins and development of early human culture between the first appearance of man as a tool-using mammal, which is believed to have occurred about 600,000 or 700,000 years ago, and the beginning of the Recent geologic era, about 8000 BC.

http://history-world.org/stone_age.htm

11 posted on 04/10/2009 8:49:20 AM PDT by HospiceNurse
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To: HospiceNurse
You might want to read the article again for comprehension. He's talking about STONE BLADES, not stone tools in general.
12 posted on 04/10/2009 9:04:46 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Boxen
I've been tempted to refer to my self as Stormer AAAS, BA, BS, MS, CECSL, PADI, etc*, but have resisted.

I wonder if his MS* is from Ken Hovind's alma mater?


13 posted on 04/10/2009 9:31:16 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Boxen

Probably uses the acronym, “GGG” on certain web forums...


14 posted on 04/10/2009 9:34:29 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: Boxen

Here’s where you can get your own MS*. http://www.icr.edu/home/


15 posted on 04/10/2009 9:34:36 AM PDT by stormer
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To: RobbyS

“...unbridgeable except at a material level and even that by an exercise of human thought...”

Wow. Sounds like science.


16 posted on 04/10/2009 9:37:40 AM PDT by stormer
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To: GodGunsGuts

Well, obviously the rock layers were mis-dated.

Since stone tools are known to have been made only 40,000 years ago, the layer of stone these were found in must be 40k or less years old.

Do I have the evo circular reasoning down?


17 posted on 04/10/2009 9:39:43 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: MrB

Don’t know about the evos, but the geologists didn’t engage in any circular reasoning. Though I suppose some evos may be a prone to circular reasoning as are some fundies.


18 posted on 04/10/2009 9:43:42 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: DesertSapper

Proves that they learned something new and admitted it(unlike some of us fundies are able to do at times).


19 posted on 04/10/2009 9:45:14 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: GodGunsGuts

The stone age began 600,000 years ago.


20 posted on 04/10/2009 9:48:05 AM PDT by HospiceNurse
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To: HospiceNurse

I believe those people had the same brain capacity as we do now. Just with few resources to go with. They had an idea to create what they needed. If you look around right now, everything we use are tools. All were made for our convenience. No matter what you use. Calculus by Isaac Newton for example simplifies calculations. Tools.


21 posted on 04/10/2009 9:53:15 AM PDT by BobS
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To: theymakemesick; GodGunsGuts
Here's the pic of the "blades":

See also this article about Kanzi the chimp making stone tools. Part of the issue is how sophisticated the tool has to be before you call it a manufactured tool.

Meanwhile, the Creationists are still not explaining why there are no modern mammals or humans in the same geologic layers where we find dinosaurs, if we were all created in the same week.

22 posted on 04/10/2009 9:57:42 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: theymakemesick; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; DallasMike
I am an advanced avocational lithic technologist. (I make stone tools while studying the processes and science involved in making them.) Those blades were removed from that (or a similar) core using a fast-moving hard (stone) hammer tangential to the flat (upper) platform and in line with a ridge down the side.

Removal of multiple blades like that from a core of such coarse material requires a sophisticated knowledge of shock wave propagation and the ability to predict force vector resultants -- and very careful selection and control of the point and force of impact.

Such multiple blade removals simply cannot occur via any natural mechanism. They were performed by an intelligent and well-coordinated being.

~~~~~~~~~~

Note how the charlatan, "Brian Thomas, M.S." attempts to cast the honesty of scientists who correct their knowledge base as better data is acquired -- as a "weakness" in their knowledge.

How charmingly smug of him to sneer at his intellectual superiors -- simply because his (and "Bishop" Ussher's) misinterpretation of a few words in Genesis has supposedly given him the "whole TRUTH".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The God who created this universe doesn't need such hucksters and hustlers "defending" Him.

23 posted on 04/10/2009 10:07:43 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: stormer

“* Pursuant to California and Federal law, ICRGS currently offers an M.S. in Science Education, mostly online, to qualified students who are not Texas residents. ICR is currently examining its legal options regarding how it can best serve the educational “gaps” of Texas residents.”

best disclaimer ever.


24 posted on 04/10/2009 10:07:45 AM PDT by Nipplemancer (Abolish the DEA !)
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To: TXnMA; theymakemesick; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; DallasMike
How charmingly smug of him to sneer at his intellectual superiors -- simply because his (and "Bishop" Ussher's) misinterpretation of a few words in Genesis has supposedly given him the "whole TRUTH".

And how blithely you reduce everything to a few misleading and snide sentences.
25 posted on 04/10/2009 10:10:56 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: stormer

He also hopes that he does not use the same tax account.


26 posted on 04/10/2009 10:39:22 AM PDT by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“Removing the restriction of long-age assumptions, the stone knives were most likely made somewhere on the order of several thousand years ago, at least since the time of the Tower of Babel, circa 2200 B.C. The forced dispersion of peoples from the Middle East outward across the rest of the world, as described in Genesis 11, caused migrating families to start from scratch, eking out an existence with stone knives and cave dwellings for a time. The volcanic deposits that sandwiched the newly-discovered African blades could well be remnants of post-Flood volcanic activity, marks of a time when earth’s crust was less stable, still settling down from the great, year-long upheaval of Noah’s Flood. This historical picture, unlike the standard evolutionary one, is based on eyewitness accounts, not on unfounded and ever-changing presuppositions.”

Unless I overlooked something I fail to see where Brian Thomas M.S.* provides any evidence to support this assertion.


27 posted on 04/10/2009 10:43:39 AM PDT by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: stormer

Yes, and apes have no science. Nor do dolphins, I think.


28 posted on 04/10/2009 10:45:15 AM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: TXnMA
You are a materials scientist. You can re-create things used for survival a long time ago. My question is what were those tools made for to cut up? You won't find the answer.

Dump that search and get into aerospace. There are materials that need to be scoped out for real flaws created now.

29 posted on 04/10/2009 10:47:15 AM PDT by BobS
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To: aruanan; theymakemesick; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; DallasMike
"And how blithely you reduce everything to a few misleading and snide sentences."

~~~~~~~~~~~

Thus, the original claim that “40,000 years ago, man made his first stone implements” was off by over 92 percent, suggesting that evolutionary depictions of human history are unreliable.

That is "snide" -- and is the trademark style of the YEC writers.

Speaking of "misleading", the depiction of a well-crafted Clovis point

in reference to an article discussing rudimentary blade removals -- now, that is "misleading".

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Snide?" Countering the snideness of the YECArticle was, indeed, my intent.

OTOH, I posted demonstrable (and replicable) facts. (Do you also need me to point out the [both positive and negative] conchoidal fracture remnants resulting from the 120-degree shockwave propagation?)

Please point out where I was "misleading"...

30 posted on 04/10/2009 11:01:51 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: RobbyS

Yet apes make tools. Explain, please.


31 posted on 04/10/2009 11:13:11 AM PDT by stormer
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To: PapaBear3625
Apologies! I'm not right sure how I responded to your #22 with my #23 -- without copying you. No slight was intended...

BTW. it is obvious that neither the author of the YEC website article nor the poster of this thread (if they are not one and the same) knows the difference between a blade and a biface.

32 posted on 04/10/2009 11:14:00 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: Ira_Louvin

33 posted on 04/10/2009 11:16:27 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Ira_Louvin
Apparently he forgot to render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar’s.
34 posted on 04/10/2009 11:18:26 AM PDT by stormer
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To: RobbyS

“In the Brevia section of the 9 August 2002 issue of Science, Weir et al. report a remarkable observation: The toolmaking behavior of New Caledonian crows. In the experiments, a captive female crow, confronted with a task that required a curved tool (retrieving a food-containing bucket from a vertical pipe), spontaneously bent a piece of straight wire into a hooked shape — and then repeated the behavior in nine out of ten subsequent trials. Though these crows are known to employ tools in the wild using natural materials, this bird had no prior training with the use of pliant materials such as wire — a fact that makes its apparently spontaneous, highly specific problem-solving all the more interesting, and raises intriguing questions about the evolutionary preconditions for complex cognition. The crow’s behavior was captured on an unusual video clip, available on Science Online.

http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/crow/


35 posted on 04/10/2009 11:21:01 AM PDT by stormer
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To: stormer

Crows are far more intelligent than their station in life would demand.


36 posted on 04/10/2009 11:24:41 AM PDT by CholeraJoe (I'd rather be eating sushi off Nicole Scherzinger's nekkid body.)
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To: BobS; DallasMike; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
"My question is what were those tools made for to cut up? You won't find the answer."

That is not the case. We experimental lithic technologists have reproduced blades like those shown, used them to cut both plant materials and meats -- and have then examined the microscopic edge wear (or "polish") with the SEM [Scanning Electron Microscope].

Our results match the wear on prehistoric samples very precisely. IOW, we can distinguish whether a prehistoric blade was used for cutting either vegetable material or meat. (FYI, plant cells contain minute particles of silica, [quartz sand] the difference between vegetable and meat wear/polish is dramatically obvious under sufficient magnification.)

FWIW, I am retired, and am doing what I enjoy now -- even if that entails "going back to the stone age" on occasion... '-)

37 posted on 04/10/2009 11:28:34 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: CholeraJoe

No question. The film of the tool-making crow is absolutely remarkable.


38 posted on 04/10/2009 11:39:14 AM PDT by stormer
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To: TXnMA
Thanks for pinging me back into the article! I like the info on lithic technology.

I wonder if we'll ever see a rational discussion from the creationists on how the geologic fossil record has no modern mammals or humans in the same layer as dinosaurs.

39 posted on 04/10/2009 11:40:29 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Evolutionary anthropologists?

Please. They are simply anthropologists.

Creationists like to tack the word “evolutionary” onto anything they disagree with. It is a buzzword for their brain numbed followers so that they won’t actually have to think; and their objections to these people and their findings need not be explained or detailed other than to say that they are “evolutionists” and thus worthy of contempt to those with more spite and ignorance than knowledge.

Anthropologists are not specifically trained in evolutionary theory, neither did the theory of evolutionary biology in any way influence their data.

Rocks do not evolve by means of natural selection of genetic variation.


40 posted on 04/10/2009 11:49:49 AM PDT by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: HospiceNurse

Welcome to FR. How long have you been a hospice nurse?


41 posted on 04/10/2009 1:13:55 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther

I began as a CNA 12 years ago and got my RN 6 years ago.


42 posted on 04/10/2009 2:21:58 PM PDT by HospiceNurse
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To: stormer

As soon as you find a crow who can write a geometry book, let me know.


43 posted on 04/10/2009 3:33:56 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: HospiceNurse

How do you like it?


44 posted on 04/10/2009 6:23:19 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: RobbyS
I did a quick inventory of the people I know, and they're a pretty smart group. But with the exception of one who has a PhD in mathematics, none could even begin to write a geometry book. So your point is?
45 posted on 04/10/2009 7:04:17 PM PDT by stormer
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


46 posted on 04/10/2009 9:03:18 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: TXnMA
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
47 posted on 04/10/2009 9:18:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: stormer

One chapter would include what Pascal did on conic sections when he was age 15. One thing that everyone relies on is how the material world seems to match our mathematical models. Indeed that insight is where modern science begins. Whether the mathematics originates with us, or we simply recognize patterns inherent in the material world the human being has to be taken as sui generis. The “thinking” of animals is perhaps no more than anthropmorphism, hardly different from the product of the Disney Studios.


48 posted on 04/10/2009 9:58:05 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: theymakemesick

Wonder how the figured out that they were intelligently designed? Didn’t think that sort of thing was possible /s.


49 posted on 04/11/2009 6:23:24 AM PDT by Tribune7 (Obama wants to put the same crowd that ran Fannie Mae in charge of health care)
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To: TXnMA

Why do they always call them tools and not weapons? Why are multiple tools often found nearby, as if they were left on a battlefield rather than a hunting ground? If a kitchen tool breaks, does anyone keep them in their kitchen? Modern man thinks ancient man was a peace loving hippie rather than a killer yet there is little to support that. According to Darwin, man evolved from tribal warfare, yet modern man rejects that as too unseemly to be possible.


50 posted on 04/11/2009 6:56:05 AM PDT by Reeses (Leftism is powered by the evil force of envy.)
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