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Calling Ronald Wetherington’s Bluffs About Human Evolution (Texas Board of Ed. Testimony)
Discovery Institute ^ | April 9, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 04/11/2009 10:22:27 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Texas Hold ’Em Part III: Calling Ronald Wetherington’s Bluffs About Human Evolution in His January Texas State Board of Education Testimony

As a final installment in my “Texas Hold ‘Em” series calling the bluffs of Texas evolutionists, I’d like to highlight one section from Discovery Institute’s rebuttal to Ronald Wetherington’s Testimony before the Texas State Board of Education (TSBOE). Wetherington, who is a professor of anthropology at SMU, testified extensively to the TSBOE about human evolution, his area of expertise. Wetherington stated regarding human origins that we have “arguably the most complete sequence of fossil succession of any mammal in the world. No gaps. No lack of transitional fossils. … So when people talk about the lack of transitional fossils or gaps in the fossil record, it absolutely is not true.” But a close look at the evidence, as reported in the mainstream scientific literature, shows that it is Wetherington’s talk that is “not true.” As a preliminary example, a 2004 book by leading evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr stated that "The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus by a large, unbridged gap” and therefore we are in a situation “[n]ot having any fossils that can serve as missing links." To read the full statement calling Wetherington’s bluff, go to the section of Discovery’s response to Wetherington on his “Misrepresentations of the Evidence for Human Evolutionary Origins.”

F. Misrepresentations of the Evidence for Human Evolutionary Origins

Prof. Wetherington asserted that when it comes to human evolution, we have “arguably the most complete sequence of fossil succession of any mammal in the world. No gaps. No lack of transitional fossils. … So when people talk about the lack of transitional fossils or gaps in the fossil record, it absolutely is not true.” Though this is supposed to be Wetherington’s area of expertise, again we see him dramatically overstating the evidence as well as failing to acknowledge counter-opinions by experts within his own field.

Wetherington mentioned by name only three allegedly transitional fossil species. However, the quality of these alleged “transitional fossils” leaves much to be desired and their status as human ancestors is in fact disputed by some paleontological data.

The first fossil mentioned by Wetherington was Sahelanthropus tchadensis. But this fossil (also called the “Toumai skull”) is known only from one skull and some jaw fragments, and one leading researcher said “I tend towards thinking this is the skull of a female gorilla.”45 Wetherington bluffed when he told the TSBOE that we know this fossil qualifies as a transitional form leading to humans. Indeed, leading paleoanthropologists have warned in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA) that tooth and and skull bones alone are insufficient to properly classify or understand a hominid species:

Rather, our results show that the type of craniodental characters that have hitherto been used in hominin phylogenetics are probably not reliable for reconstructing the phylogenetic relationships of higher primate species and genera, including those among the hominins.46
Another bluff from Wetherington came when he claimed that “Every fossil we find reinforces the sequence that we had previously supposed to exist rather than suggesting something different.” But in fact this Toumai skull, first published in 2002, provides an excellent counterexample to his wildly false assertion. Commenting on the Toumai skull in the journal Nature, leading paleoanthropologist Bernard Wood began an article by observing, “A single fossil can fundamentally change the way we reconstruct the tree of life. He goes on to state:
If we accept these as sufficient evidence to classify S. tchadensis as a hominid at the base, or stem, of the modern human clade, then it plays havoc with the tidy model of human origins. Quite simply, a hominid of this age should only just be beginning to show signs of being a hominid. It certainly should not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age. Also, if it is accepted as a stem hominid, under the tidy model the principle of parsimony dictates that all creatures with more primitive faces (and that is a very long list) would, perforce, have to be excluded from the ancestry of modern humans.47
In other words, if we accept the Toumai skull as the stem ancestor of humans, as Professor Wetherington does, then many other alleged hominid species—including the other species mentioned by Wetherington that are discussed below—could not be counted as ancestors of humans.

Professor Wetherington stated that it “is not true” that there are gaps in the fossil record for the origin “for our own species, rather than for some others,” but paleoanthropological expert Wood states that fossils like this show “compelling evidence that our own origins are as complex and as difficult to trace as those of any other group of organisms.”48 Indeed, Harvard zoologist Richard Lewontin wrote in 1995 that

When we consider the remote past, before the origin of the actual species Homo sapiens, we are faced with a fragmentary and disconnected fossil record. Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some paleontologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor.49
Again, it is clear that Wetherington is bluffing to claim there are “no gaps” in the fossil evidence for human evolution. If the Toumai skull represents a transitional fossil which allegedly plugs a “gap” and doesn’t “play havoc” with the proclaimed human evolutionary tree, then the evidence for human evolution must be quite weak indeed.

Wetherington next mentioned Ardipithecus as an alleged transitional form leading to humans—but this fossil too has highly fragmented remains, and has been called a hominid primarily on the basis of some of its teeth.50 Its extremely fragmented remains prevent paleoanthropologists from determining much about this species, including questions such as whether it walked upright.51 Paleoanthropologist Tim White has called the record of early hominids from this period, “a black hole in the fossil record,”52 and the few fossils that are known are based upon limited remains wherein it is not possible to make firm conclusions about these fossils.53

Despite the questions about Ardipithecus, Wetherington claimed that it “became Australopithecus afarensis 4 million years ago.” He based this claim (presumably) upon a paper by Tim White in 2006, but this paper starts by admitting that “The origin of Australopithecus, the genus widely interpreted as ancestral to Homo, is a central problem in human evolutionary studies. Australopithecus species differ markedly from extant African apes and candidate ancestral hominids such as Ardipithecus, Orrorin and Sahelanthropus.”54 And the evidence that allegedly made one species intermediate was its “masticatory robusticity" (in other words, its ability to chew harder stuff). This does not make for an impressive evolutionary scheme, and again this claim is based entirely upon reconstructed tooth fragments which, as noted, have been highly criticized by leading paleontologists as a form of data on which to base claims of hominid Phylogenetic relationships.55

And what about Australopithecus? Australopithecus literally means “Southern Ape,” and despite Wetherington’s claim that there is “no lack of transitional fossils,” there is a stark lack of intermediates between the ape-like australopithecines and the genus Homo. Indeed, in 2004 in his book What Makes Biology Unique?: Considerations on the Autonomy of a Scientific Discipline, the leading evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr stated: "The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus by a large, unbridged gap. How can we explain this seeming saltation? Not having any fossils that can serve as missing links, we have to fall back on the time-honored method of historical science, the construction of a historical narrative."56

Contrary to Wetherington’s claims that the basic evolutionary hypothesis about the human lineage is never being altered, a 1999 article in Science by leaders in paleoanthropology found that Homo habilis should be classified as an australopithecine,57 and an article titled “African fossils paint messy picture of human evolution” reported that how new fossil finds prevented Homo habilis from being part of our family tree:

The old theory was that the first and oldest species in our family tree, Homo habilis, evolved into Homo erectus, which then became us, Homo sapiens. But those two earlier species lived side-by-side about 1.5 million years ago in parts of Kenya for at least half a million years, Leakey and colleagues report in a paper published in Thursday's journal Nature. In 2000 Leakey found an old H. erectus complete skull within walking distance of an upper jaw of the H. habilis, and both dated from the same general time period. That makes it unlikely that H. erectus evolved from H. habilis, researchers said.58
With habilis removed from our direct ancestry, what exactly is the direct ancestor of Homo linking back to the australopithecines? Two paleoanthropologists wrote in Nature in 2005 that we don’t know the direct ancestor of our genus Homo:
[An early form of Homo] marks such a radical departure from previous forms of Homo (such as H. habilis) in its height, reduced sexual dimorphism, long limbs and modern body proportions that it is hard at present to identify its immediate ancestry in east Africa. Not for nothing has it been described as a hominin “without an ancestor, without a clear past.”59
Likewise, an article in the Journal of Human Evolution stated:
The anatomy of the earliest H. sapiens sample indicates significant modifications of the ancestral genome and is not simply an extension of evolutionary trends in an earlier australopithecine lineage throughout the Pliocene. In fact, its combination of features never appears earlier...60
These authors said the origin of Homo required “a genetic revolution” where “no australopithecine species is obviously transitional.” One commentator said this shows a “big bang theory” of human origins because “[t]he first members of early Homo sapiens are really quite distinct from their australopithecine predecessors and contemporaries.”61

Contrary to this data, Wetherington asserted in his testimony that the origin of our species represents “a gradualistic evolutionary change,” despite the fact that there are clear gaps in the record. Indeed, one paper in the Journal of Human Evolution found that the origin of key features of our genus Homo was anything but gradual: “It appears from the hominid fossil record of pelvic bones that two periods of stasis exist and are separated by a period of very rapid evolution corresponding to the emergence of the genus Homo.”62

In contrast to these tentative admissions from paleoanthropologists, Wetherington makes firm and dogmatic statements that dramatically overstate the fossil evidence for human origins. Compare Wetherington’s dogmatic assertions to the following comment by an editor of Nature: “Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations.”63 Clearly Wetherington misrepresented the completeness of the evidence for human evolution, and there are indeed many gaps in the record of human origins.

References Cited:
[45.] Quoting Dr. Brigitte Senut, also stating “One of Dr Senut's colleagues, Dr Martin Pickford, who was in London this week, is also reported to have told peers that he thought the new Chadian skull was from a ‘proto-gorilla’. “ See “Skull find sparks controversy” (July 12, 2002) at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2125244.stm

[46.] Mark Collard and Bernard Wood, "How reliable are human phylogenetic hypotheses?," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 97(9):5003–5006 (April 25, 2009).

[47.] Bernard Wood, “Hominid revelations from Chad,” Nature, Vol. 418:133-135 (July 11, 2002) at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6894/full/418133a.html (emphasis added).

[48.] Bernard Wood, “Hominid revelations from Chad,” Nature, Vol. 418:133-135 (July 11, 2002) at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6894/full/418133a.html (emphasis added).

[49.] Richard C. Lewontin, Human Diversity, p. 163 (Scientific American Library: New York NY, 1995).

[50.] Y. Haaile-Selassie, “Late Miocene hominids from the Middle Awash, Ethiopia,” Nature, Vol. 412:178-181 (July 12, 2001).

[51.] See Figure 2, Bernard Wood, “Hominid revelations from Chad,” Nature, Vol. 418:133-135 (July 11, 2002) at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6894/full/418133a.html

[52.] A. Gibbons, “In Search of the First Hominids,” Science, 295:1214-1219 (February 15, 2002).

[53.] See Figure 2, Bernard Wood, “Hominid revelations from Chad,” Nature, Vol. 418:133-135 (July 11, 2002) at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6894/full/418133a.html

[54.] Tim D. White et al., “Asa Issie, Aramis and the origin of Australopithecus,” Nature, Vol. 440:883-889 (April 13, 2006).

[55.] Mark Collard and Bernard Wood, "How reliable are human phylogenetic hypotheses?," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 97(9):5003–5006 (April 25, 2009).

[56.] Ernst Mayr, What Makes Biology Unique?: Considerations on the Autonomy of a Scientific Discipline, pg. 198 (Cambridge University Press, 2004).

[57.] Bernard Wood and Mark Collard, "The Human Genus," Science, Vol. 284:65-71 (April 2, 1999).

[58.] Associated Press, “African fossils paint messy picture of human evolution; who was our ancestor's ancestor?,” International Herald Tribune, at http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/08/america/NA-GEN-US-Human-Evolution.php

[59.] Robin Dennell & Wil Roebroeks, “An Asian perspective on early human dispersal from Africa,” Nature, Vol. 438:1099-1104 (Dec. 22/29, 2005) (internal citations removed) (emphasis added).

[60.] Hawks, J., Hunley, K., Sang-Hee, L., Wolpoff, M., “Population Bottlenecks and Pleistocene Evolution,” Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution, 17(1):2-22 (January, 2000).

[61.] “New study suggests big bang theory of human evolution,” (January 10, 2000) at http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/2000/Jan00/r011000b.html

[62.] F. Marchal, “A New Morphometric Analysis of the Hominid Pelvic Bone,” Journal of Human Evolution, Vol. 38:347-365 (2000).

[63.] H. Gee, “Return to the planet of the apes,” Nature, Vol. 412:131-132 (July 12, 2001).



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: board; creation; creationisminadress; darwin; darwinism; dispinzone; education; evolution; idjunkscience; intelligentdesign; neodarwinism; ofpandasandluddites; public; publiceducation; texas
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1 posted on 04/11/2009 10:22:28 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Finny; vladimir998; Coyoteman; allmendream; LeGrande; GunRunner; cacoethes_resipisco; ...

Texas Hold ‘Em Part I and Part II can be found here”

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/julie_berwalds_bluffs_refuted.html#more

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/texas_hold_em_part_ii_calling.html#more


2 posted on 04/11/2009 10:27:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: All

PS WE WON THIS FIGHT! BUT IT IS STILL INSTRUCTIVE TO SEE WHAT MANY EVOS WILL STOOP TO IN ORDER TO KEEP THEIR STRANGLEHOLD ON PUBLIC EDUCATION.


3 posted on 04/11/2009 10:31:04 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Okay. Everybody put all their cards on the table.
4 posted on 04/11/2009 10:33:09 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
I thought that modern DNA analysis had determined that humans have no ancestry associated with the earlier Homo Whomevers.

If that is true, then why are these pseudo-scientists still claiming a lineage?

5 posted on 04/11/2009 10:49:39 AM PDT by ChicagahAl (Don't blame me. I voted for Sarah.)
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To: ChicagahAl

I think we both know the answer to that one.


6 posted on 04/11/2009 10:59:52 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Why did God make us to look like apes rather then, say, dogs or horses?


7 posted on 04/11/2009 11:30:52 AM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: Blue State Insurgent

Why are you asking me?


8 posted on 04/11/2009 11:34:48 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Bump


9 posted on 04/11/2009 11:45:28 AM PDT by Mechanicos
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To: GodGunsGuts

Because you seem convinced that evolution wasn’t the reason we look more like apes the any other animals so I was just wondering why you think we were created to look like them.


10 posted on 04/11/2009 12:13:34 PM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: ChicagahAl

Probably because what you thought has nothing to do with the facts.


11 posted on 04/11/2009 6:38:56 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: ChicagahAl

>>I thought that modern DNA analysis had determined that humans have no ancestry associated with the earlier Homo Whomevers.

If that is true, then why are these pseudo-scientists still claiming a lineage?<<

Quite the opposite. DNA has not only confirmed the fossil evidence of human development but has shown how the various groups migrated and end which branches ended without being our direct ancestors.

Here’s a good place to start

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4435009.stm


12 posted on 04/11/2009 6:42:05 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: gondramB

How does that prove Human Evolution?


13 posted on 04/11/2009 8:09:03 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Human Evolution is one of the most vile and disgusting lies I have ever had to endure on this earth. The arrogant stupidity of these simpletons makes me both sadden and angry. They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.

Mr. Wetherington your empty arguments of false proof for Human Evolution do nothing but show your hatred and not your scientific abilities. Monkey bones pieced together throughout the years do not prove that humans descended from animals. Human Evolution is stupidity in it's ugliest form and I am thrilled that nuts like you are finally getting some competition. Maybe one day your face will hang in the Hall of Scientific Shame for trying to convince well meaning masses of people to believe completely made up horse crap like Human Evolution.

"Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations."

I could not have said it better, bone rattling is open to interpretation. Well, I interpret it as an anti-creation forgery and mockery of science to suit the beliefs of a false religion.
14 posted on 04/11/2009 8:28:26 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: Jaime2099

Now tell us what you really think :o)

Excellent reply!


15 posted on 04/11/2009 8:39:22 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Jaime2099

Human evolution and migration makes perfect sense.
Why do Aleut and Native Americans resemble Asians? Because their ancestor migrated over the land bridge from Asia. By looking at changes in the DNA sequences of certain genes, one can determine when ancestors of people in certain regions settled in the area. An example- the Basques are not from France or Spain, but elsewhere.
Why are certain blood types more prevalent in certain areas of the globe? Human migration and the founder effect.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people are animals too. Of course we see that every day.


16 posted on 04/11/2009 8:55:22 PM PDT by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


17 posted on 04/11/2009 10:15:01 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts

[[So when people talk about the lack of transitional fossils or gaps in the fossil record, it absolutely is not true.”]]

Ya gotta love hte hubris of people liek this- it’s liek a totaly toothless person standing there- gums gleeming in the wind, and stating “I have never lost a tooth- I have no gaps”

I can’t bleeive he is an ‘expert’ in the field of evolution- and worse yet, is allowed to testify statign complete lies like that- His intellectualt honesty is completely missing! But by golly the TSBOE will glom onto his ‘testimony’ as though it were gospel, while throwing out al lthe actual evidence to the contrary! With a fixed jury liek that- who needs eyewitnesses?


18 posted on 04/11/2009 10:35:25 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Jaime2099
They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.

Such hate in your words! My brother, you need to express your love for all, even those with whom you do not agree.

Have a blessed day!

19 posted on 04/12/2009 1:25:26 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Jaime2099

>>How does that prove Human Evolution?<<

Apparently they can trace common genes as they are propagated from one species to another. So they can even see a species like neanderthals that had genes from our common ancestor but whose line apparently ended.


20 posted on 04/12/2009 1:29:30 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: Jaime2099
>>Human Evolution is one of the most vile and disgusting lies I have ever had to endure on this earth. The arrogant stupidity of these simpletons makes me both sadden and angry. They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.<<

The problem with any explanation other than evolution is that we can date fossils and bones and we can see the development as more recent remains get closer and closer to modern humans.

And then molecules, genes and DNA were discovered and matched conclusions that had been drawn from the fossils.

Now, the hostility from a minority of scientists (and frankly from a minority of Christians) is a problem and does poison the well somewhat.

But its best to look beyond the hate from both sides and stick to what we can observe. All the physical evidence points to life developing from simpler organisms into more complex ones and the personal experience with God that millions of Christians have experienced show (at least to those who are open to the experience) that God is real and loves us.

I know its hard to reconcile - I recently posted a vanity Vanity - question for creationists from a Christian who believes in evolution where I asked creationists what it would mean if evidence were found that convinced them of evolution - a substantial portion said it would effect their faith in other ways.

With those kind of stakes I understand that this is an uphill path to reconciliation.
21 posted on 04/12/2009 1:45:39 PM PDT by gondramB
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Fichori

Have a blessed day. Please, try not to be so Hateful, especially on Easter.


23 posted on 04/12/2009 3:58:06 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Wacka
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but people are animals too. Of course we see that every day."

I fail to see how the first part of your post proves Evolution from animals, and I 100% disagree with the quote above.
24 posted on 04/12/2009 4:17:10 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
“Please, try not to be so Hateful,” [excerpt]
Uh, which one of us has a long and glamorous history of threatening and foul posting? (remember, you have directly threatened my person)

But hey, your advice is good.

So, can I expect an apology?
25 posted on 04/12/2009 4:23:27 PM PDT by Fichori (The only bailout I'm interested in is the one where the entire Democrat party leaves the county)
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To: Fichori

>>So, can I expect an apology?

Sure — sorry.


26 posted on 04/12/2009 4:24:14 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: freedumb2003

Forgiven ;-)


27 posted on 04/12/2009 4:25:22 PM PDT by Fichori (The only bailout I'm interested in is the one where the entire Democrat party leaves the county)
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To: freedumb2003
Such hate in your words! My brother, you need to express your love for all, even those with whom you do not agree. Have a blessed day!

My hatred is towards the words and theories that seek to destroy the foundations of the Bible and my God who wrote it through His servants. God said that He created Adam first, and wrote nothing of evolving Adam from an animal. To believe otherwise is to call His word false.

Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught.
28 posted on 04/12/2009 4:27:08 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: GodGunsGuts; Blue State Insurgent

We dont look like apes except in the eyes of the evolutionists


29 posted on 04/12/2009 4:34:32 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099
I hate the false religion they have been taught

And that is what it is, a religion. 

30 posted on 04/12/2009 4:36:12 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught.

Then you hate the Catholic church because they teach Evolution is real and is how God created humans (as do many of us Christians). This is not an accusation, but a conclusion.

I suggest you rethink this “hate” thing...


31 posted on 04/12/2009 4:38:40 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

>>And that is what it is, a religion.

I would just like to point out that science teaches many things. How does one determine what is “religion” and what is not?


32 posted on 04/12/2009 4:40:18 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: gondramB
"With those kind of stakes I understand that this is an uphill path to reconciliation."

The tone of your post was much appreciated. It is debatable whether bones can be accurately dated or not (see post about Dinosaur bones with soft tissue), so this is hardly proof of Human Evolution. Furthermore, the bones that are being examined could very well be animal bones that were pieced together and have nothing to do with Evolution whatsoever.

To me it all boils down to Adam vs animal. In the Bible God said Adam, so that is where my belief will stay. Choose to believe who you will, but if you are a Christian, I advise you to reconsider your position on Human Evolution. God said Adam not animal.
33 posted on 04/12/2009 4:45:10 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
Then you hate the Catholic church because they teach Evolution is real and is how God created humans (as do many of us Christians). This is not an accusation, but a conclusion.

I suggest you rethink this “hate” thing...


You saying that I hate the Catholic church means nothing other than you place words into peoples mouths. I hate Human Evolution, not anyone who teaches it. Those are two very different things. If you cannot see that, then your blindness is no fault of mine.
34 posted on 04/12/2009 4:56:11 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003

Which science are you talking about. Men teach things. Science is a word.


35 posted on 04/12/2009 4:58:18 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>You saying that I hate the Catholic church means nothing other than you place words into peoples mouths.

Sorry — as I said, it was a conclusion.

>>I hate Human Evolution, not anyone who teaches it. Those are two very different things. If you cannot see that, then your blindness is no fault of mine.

I don’t know how to take that. As I said the RCC teaches it. So you just hate that teaching? Do you find it to be wrong? Immorral? How, therefore, do you reconcile your hatred of the content to those who teach it and embrace it? Is there no relationship at all?


36 posted on 04/12/2009 5:20:43 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

>>Which science are you talking about. Men teach things. Science is a word.

I need to define “science” for you? I will do so, if you wish.


37 posted on 04/12/2009 5:21:30 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: freedumb2003

Go ahead if that is what you feel a need to do.


38 posted on 04/12/2009 5:33:57 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1
Spend sometime at your local zoo and watch a chimpanzee for awhile. You'll see what I mean. But he's as different from our common ancestor as we are. We didn't descend from him at all. We took different evolutionary paths.
39 posted on 04/12/2009 5:35:47 PM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: freedumb2003; Jaime2099

How do you reconcile your love of evolutionism with the truth of Bible.


40 posted on 04/12/2009 5:59:50 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>
My hatred is towards the words and theories that seek to destroy the foundations of the Bible and my God who wrote it through His servants. God said that He created Adam first, and wrote nothing of evolving Adam from an animal. To believe otherwise is to call His word false.

Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught. <

Good clarification. If you believe that evolution destroys the foundations of the bible then I understanding your feelings on the matter.

I could explain why I believe in evolution - it came from studying science. I could tell you about my personal conversion. I could explain in detail how I see much of the creation story as a parable appropriate for what the people of the say could understand with their limited math and science.

But that would miss the point.

We don’t have to agree on evolution. And you get to feel about it however you feel.

The question we do need (meaning we in the greater sense) come to a conclusion about is the implication of disagreeing.

I would hope we agree that in religious matters we can leave the government and most part science out - people are entitled to choose their religion and practice it in public whether its praying quietly even in a public school or a town deciding to have a Christmas tree.

Likewise, I would hope that we agree in matters of science and science education policy should be determined by the scientific consensus. For quite some time a strong consensus among the people who study it, say the evidence points to the gradual development of man, not creation and that’s what the schools should teach.


41 posted on 04/12/2009 7:09:32 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: valkyry1
How do you reconcile your love of evolutionism with the truth of Bible.

I shall await answers to my questions, else I will for sure get lost in the conversation.

But thank you for your interest.

42 posted on 04/12/2009 7:35:50 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

Please read the whole thing as it also addresses TToE. Thank you and I hope you had a blessed Easter!

From: http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-3.htm

It continues to amaze me how many “educated” people do not understand what Science* is or what is meant by the term “scientific method.” The statements of Nobel Prize physicist Percy W. Bridgman1 shows that such ignorance shows no regard for academic stature when he states, “No working scientist, when he plans an experiment in the laboratory, asks himself whether he is being properly scientific, nor is he interested in whatever method he may be using as method.” What arrogance!2

One of the best descriptions and explanations of the current concept of scientific method is interestingly found in the Appendix E of Frank Wolfs’ website .3

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

But in order to realize whether this is a valid concept or not, we need to understand what Science really is. Here is a typical dictionary definition of Science: “The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.”4

Science on the other hand is an interesting definition in that it previously has applied to those fields of study which utilize the scientific method. For physics and chemistry, this is easy, but when we get into archeology, psychology, geology, environmental studies, and so on, the use of scientific methodology becomes less applicable but yet aren’t these still Science? What about archeology where even though one can not perform repeatable experiments we can yet validate hypotheses?

Let’s say that I am an archeologist and that I hypothesize that an ancient culture “X” existed based upon a piece of pottery that I had found and I further hypothesize various characteristics of this culture. Later it is found that I was correct in my hypothesis through continued validation from other findings. I then hypothesize that any culture that can make such pottery will have a high lead content in their remains. Again this is found to be true. These hypotheses have now become theories as they have been verified yet they did not follow the definition of scientific method nor could they. This is Science.

Some may say that in archeology, we use carbon-14 dating (or similar process) which does follow the scientific method. Though archeology does utilize some aspects of other sciences that do follow the scientific method, this is archeology’s use of physics. It is the physics that is following the scientific method in this case, not archeology.

The scientific method is fine for experimentation but it is inadequate in determining what is Science. In the past if a discipline could not be subject to the scientific method, it was not Science. Therefore, I would like to propose that the scientific method should only be applied to experimentation when appropriate and not be used in the determination of what is or is not science, nor should it have any application in defining what is a hypothesis, theory, fact, or law.**

In terms of the definition of what is or is not a Science, we need to find a definition that is timeless and few could argue against. One of the best way to understand the current definition of something is to look at its history (ignorance of the past will lead to mistakes of the future5) but I will leave that for a book on the subject because even though it is engrossing reading, it can get lengthy. I would like to propose that we define Science as the “the field of study which attempts to describe and understand the nature of the universe in whole or part.”* Though simple, it is an encompassing and elegant definition, as we will see.

Therefore those fields of study which attempt to describe and understand the nature of the universe on a “whole” scale such as physics and chemistry would fit our definition but so would those fields which study it in “part” such as biology whose field has been limited to only those life forms on Earth. Archeology attempts to describe and understand the fossil and archeological record (a part of the universe) and this understanding includes what its function, purpose, state of existence, etc. was. The archeological example previously given also shows how a hypothesis, theory, and fact can develop in the field of archeology...all without using the scientific method.


43 posted on 04/12/2009 7:41:23 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1; Jaime2099

See? I got confused because I was awaiting J2099’s answer to my prior question.

I do hope my provided definition of science is helpful. And Mr. J2099, I do await your answer.

I hope you, also, had a blessed Easter.

And to both of you, please do keep in mind that I have advanced no statements, belief or otherwise, on any theories nor belief systems. I have asked questions to clarify your earlier posts.

Your answers cheerfully awaited.


44 posted on 04/12/2009 7:44:42 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: gondramB
"Likewise, I would hope that we agree in matters of science and science education policy should be determined by the scientific consensus. For quite some time a strong consensus among the people who study it, say the evidence points to the gradual development of man, not creation and that’s what the schools should teach."

There is simply not enough proof for Human Evolution in order to teach children in school that it is a fact. It is merely an educated guess at best. No one can legitimately exclude it as being part of religion because if it is true, it disproves the Bible and that is a very serious matter that involves religion. Hiding this does not make it go away. Human Evolution's teachings prove the Bible wrong and it is undeniable, and it's religious context is unavoidable.

It appears you believe science and religion are different and should be separated, but Human Evolution and religion cannot be separated. If it is chosen to be in science, then religion has been added to science. And, if religion has been added to science, then how can creationism be left out?

Human Evolution is "proof" that the Bible is inaccurate. Teaching it in science to children is the equivalent of telling them that the Bible is false. This is religion and science mixed together, yet creationists have no say. By adding Human Evolution to a science curriculum, the barrier of science and religion has already been breached. To add creationism to the curriculum as well will simply balance out the scales.
45 posted on 04/12/2009 7:52:39 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
I don’t know how to take that. As I said the RCC teaches it. So you just hate that teaching? Do you find it to be wrong? Immorral? How, therefore, do you reconcile your hatred of the content to those who teach it and embrace it? Is there no relationship at all?

You're fishing, nothing more. You say nothing of your own belief, nor do you refute what I say. You are simply trying to lay some childish trap. I've already answered your question, if you don't understand my answer, then you wouldn't understand yet another answer to the same question.

I am interested in your answer to valkyry1's post.
46 posted on 04/12/2009 7:59:33 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: Jaime2099
Well see these most fit got the supremes to rule they are most fit to survive off the children. Jesus did have a few things to say about those that sit in the seat of Moses.

So we really cannot be all that surprised how far ‘out’ on a limb some will go, as we are told there is nothing ‘new’ under the ‘sun’. And this ‘knowledge’ has been being preached since that snake whispered into the woman's ear....

47 posted on 04/12/2009 8:03:48 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Jaime2099
You're fishing, nothing more. You say nothing of your own belief, nor do you refute what I say. You are simply trying to lay some childish trap. I've already answered your question, if you don't understand my answer, then you wouldn't understand yet another answer to the same question.

You really have not answered my question. It was quite explicit and, I assure you, represents no "trap." Thanks in advance for answering.

48 posted on 04/12/2009 8:05:02 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Jaime2099

>>There is simply not enough proof for Human Evolution in order to teach children in school that it is a fact. It is merely an educated guess at best. No one can legitimately exclude it as being part of religion because if it is true, it disproves the Bible and that is a very serious matter that involves religion. Hiding this does not make it go away. Human Evolution’s teachings prove the Bible wrong and it is undeniable, and it’s religious context is unavoidable.<<

We know we disagree about whether evolution is the most likely explanation (since theories are never “proved” in science, unlike math).

The question I was addressing was whether we let the scientific community and the consensus therein determine how science is taught. I think science should determine science education.

Now when it comes to how to use science, I see an important role for ethics, and morals, which for me come from religion. But when we teach kids what the modern scientific theory on something is, we ought to tell them the truth.

And the truth is, whether one agrees or not, the scientific community is firmly convinced that men developed from simpler creatures.


49 posted on 04/12/2009 8:07:40 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: freedumb2003

Actually you have advanced several things. You ask questions, then supply your own answers about the person. Or you think you are clever by putting a question mark at the end of your assertion, or posing it as several questions.


50 posted on 04/12/2009 8:11:08 PM PDT by valkyry1
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