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Calling Ronald Wetherington’s Bluffs About Human Evolution (Texas Board of Ed. Testimony)
Discovery Institute ^ | April 9, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 04/11/2009 10:22:27 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

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1 posted on 04/11/2009 10:22:28 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Finny; vladimir998; Coyoteman; allmendream; LeGrande; GunRunner; cacoethes_resipisco; ...

Texas Hold ‘Em Part I and Part II can be found here”

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/julie_berwalds_bluffs_refuted.html#more

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/texas_hold_em_part_ii_calling.html#more


2 posted on 04/11/2009 10:27:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: All

PS WE WON THIS FIGHT! BUT IT IS STILL INSTRUCTIVE TO SEE WHAT MANY EVOS WILL STOOP TO IN ORDER TO KEEP THEIR STRANGLEHOLD ON PUBLIC EDUCATION.


3 posted on 04/11/2009 10:31:04 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Okay. Everybody put all their cards on the table.
4 posted on 04/11/2009 10:33:09 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
I thought that modern DNA analysis had determined that humans have no ancestry associated with the earlier Homo Whomevers.

If that is true, then why are these pseudo-scientists still claiming a lineage?

5 posted on 04/11/2009 10:49:39 AM PDT by ChicagahAl (Don't blame me. I voted for Sarah.)
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To: ChicagahAl

I think we both know the answer to that one.


6 posted on 04/11/2009 10:59:52 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Why did God make us to look like apes rather then, say, dogs or horses?


7 posted on 04/11/2009 11:30:52 AM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: Blue State Insurgent

Why are you asking me?


8 posted on 04/11/2009 11:34:48 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Bump


9 posted on 04/11/2009 11:45:28 AM PDT by Mechanicos
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To: GodGunsGuts

Because you seem convinced that evolution wasn’t the reason we look more like apes the any other animals so I was just wondering why you think we were created to look like them.


10 posted on 04/11/2009 12:13:34 PM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: ChicagahAl

Probably because what you thought has nothing to do with the facts.


11 posted on 04/11/2009 6:38:56 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: ChicagahAl

>>I thought that modern DNA analysis had determined that humans have no ancestry associated with the earlier Homo Whomevers.

If that is true, then why are these pseudo-scientists still claiming a lineage?<<

Quite the opposite. DNA has not only confirmed the fossil evidence of human development but has shown how the various groups migrated and end which branches ended without being our direct ancestors.

Here’s a good place to start

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4435009.stm


12 posted on 04/11/2009 6:42:05 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: gondramB

How does that prove Human Evolution?


13 posted on 04/11/2009 8:09:03 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Human Evolution is one of the most vile and disgusting lies I have ever had to endure on this earth. The arrogant stupidity of these simpletons makes me both sadden and angry. They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.

Mr. Wetherington your empty arguments of false proof for Human Evolution do nothing but show your hatred and not your scientific abilities. Monkey bones pieced together throughout the years do not prove that humans descended from animals. Human Evolution is stupidity in it's ugliest form and I am thrilled that nuts like you are finally getting some competition. Maybe one day your face will hang in the Hall of Scientific Shame for trying to convince well meaning masses of people to believe completely made up horse crap like Human Evolution.

"Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations."

I could not have said it better, bone rattling is open to interpretation. Well, I interpret it as an anti-creation forgery and mockery of science to suit the beliefs of a false religion.
14 posted on 04/11/2009 8:28:26 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: Jaime2099

Now tell us what you really think :o)

Excellent reply!


15 posted on 04/11/2009 8:39:22 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Jaime2099

Human evolution and migration makes perfect sense.
Why do Aleut and Native Americans resemble Asians? Because their ancestor migrated over the land bridge from Asia. By looking at changes in the DNA sequences of certain genes, one can determine when ancestors of people in certain regions settled in the area. An example- the Basques are not from France or Spain, but elsewhere.
Why are certain blood types more prevalent in certain areas of the globe? Human migration and the founder effect.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people are animals too. Of course we see that every day.


16 posted on 04/11/2009 8:55:22 PM PDT by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


17 posted on 04/11/2009 10:15:01 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts

[[So when people talk about the lack of transitional fossils or gaps in the fossil record, it absolutely is not true.”]]

Ya gotta love hte hubris of people liek this- it’s liek a totaly toothless person standing there- gums gleeming in the wind, and stating “I have never lost a tooth- I have no gaps”

I can’t bleeive he is an ‘expert’ in the field of evolution- and worse yet, is allowed to testify statign complete lies like that- His intellectualt honesty is completely missing! But by golly the TSBOE will glom onto his ‘testimony’ as though it were gospel, while throwing out al lthe actual evidence to the contrary! With a fixed jury liek that- who needs eyewitnesses?


18 posted on 04/11/2009 10:35:25 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Jaime2099
They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.

Such hate in your words! My brother, you need to express your love for all, even those with whom you do not agree.

Have a blessed day!

19 posted on 04/12/2009 1:25:26 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Jaime2099

>>How does that prove Human Evolution?<<

Apparently they can trace common genes as they are propagated from one species to another. So they can even see a species like neanderthals that had genes from our common ancestor but whose line apparently ended.


20 posted on 04/12/2009 1:29:30 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: Jaime2099
>>Human Evolution is one of the most vile and disgusting lies I have ever had to endure on this earth. The arrogant stupidity of these simpletons makes me both sadden and angry. They are so obsessed with their ridiculous hatred towards creation science that they will believe absolutely any child's fairy tale that opposes creation so they can live their life happy and Godless.<<

The problem with any explanation other than evolution is that we can date fossils and bones and we can see the development as more recent remains get closer and closer to modern humans.

And then molecules, genes and DNA were discovered and matched conclusions that had been drawn from the fossils.

Now, the hostility from a minority of scientists (and frankly from a minority of Christians) is a problem and does poison the well somewhat.

But its best to look beyond the hate from both sides and stick to what we can observe. All the physical evidence points to life developing from simpler organisms into more complex ones and the personal experience with God that millions of Christians have experienced show (at least to those who are open to the experience) that God is real and loves us.

I know its hard to reconcile - I recently posted a vanity Vanity - question for creationists from a Christian who believes in evolution where I asked creationists what it would mean if evidence were found that convinced them of evolution - a substantial portion said it would effect their faith in other ways.

With those kind of stakes I understand that this is an uphill path to reconciliation.
21 posted on 04/12/2009 1:45:39 PM PDT by gondramB
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Fichori

Have a blessed day. Please, try not to be so Hateful, especially on Easter.


23 posted on 04/12/2009 3:58:06 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Wacka
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but people are animals too. Of course we see that every day."

I fail to see how the first part of your post proves Evolution from animals, and I 100% disagree with the quote above.
24 posted on 04/12/2009 4:17:10 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
“Please, try not to be so Hateful,” [excerpt]
Uh, which one of us has a long and glamorous history of threatening and foul posting? (remember, you have directly threatened my person)

But hey, your advice is good.

So, can I expect an apology?
25 posted on 04/12/2009 4:23:27 PM PDT by Fichori (The only bailout I'm interested in is the one where the entire Democrat party leaves the county)
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To: Fichori

>>So, can I expect an apology?

Sure — sorry.


26 posted on 04/12/2009 4:24:14 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: freedumb2003

Forgiven ;-)


27 posted on 04/12/2009 4:25:22 PM PDT by Fichori (The only bailout I'm interested in is the one where the entire Democrat party leaves the county)
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To: freedumb2003
Such hate in your words! My brother, you need to express your love for all, even those with whom you do not agree. Have a blessed day!

My hatred is towards the words and theories that seek to destroy the foundations of the Bible and my God who wrote it through His servants. God said that He created Adam first, and wrote nothing of evolving Adam from an animal. To believe otherwise is to call His word false.

Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught.
28 posted on 04/12/2009 4:27:08 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: GodGunsGuts; Blue State Insurgent

We dont look like apes except in the eyes of the evolutionists


29 posted on 04/12/2009 4:34:32 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099
I hate the false religion they have been taught

And that is what it is, a religion. 

30 posted on 04/12/2009 4:36:12 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught.

Then you hate the Catholic church because they teach Evolution is real and is how God created humans (as do many of us Christians). This is not an accusation, but a conclusion.

I suggest you rethink this “hate” thing...


31 posted on 04/12/2009 4:38:40 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

>>And that is what it is, a religion.

I would just like to point out that science teaches many things. How does one determine what is “religion” and what is not?


32 posted on 04/12/2009 4:40:18 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: gondramB
"With those kind of stakes I understand that this is an uphill path to reconciliation."

The tone of your post was much appreciated. It is debatable whether bones can be accurately dated or not (see post about Dinosaur bones with soft tissue), so this is hardly proof of Human Evolution. Furthermore, the bones that are being examined could very well be animal bones that were pieced together and have nothing to do with Evolution whatsoever.

To me it all boils down to Adam vs animal. In the Bible God said Adam, so that is where my belief will stay. Choose to believe who you will, but if you are a Christian, I advise you to reconsider your position on Human Evolution. God said Adam not animal.
33 posted on 04/12/2009 4:45:10 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
Then you hate the Catholic church because they teach Evolution is real and is how God created humans (as do many of us Christians). This is not an accusation, but a conclusion.

I suggest you rethink this “hate” thing...


You saying that I hate the Catholic church means nothing other than you place words into peoples mouths. I hate Human Evolution, not anyone who teaches it. Those are two very different things. If you cannot see that, then your blindness is no fault of mine.
34 posted on 04/12/2009 4:56:11 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003

Which science are you talking about. Men teach things. Science is a word.


35 posted on 04/12/2009 4:58:18 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>You saying that I hate the Catholic church means nothing other than you place words into peoples mouths.

Sorry — as I said, it was a conclusion.

>>I hate Human Evolution, not anyone who teaches it. Those are two very different things. If you cannot see that, then your blindness is no fault of mine.

I don’t know how to take that. As I said the RCC teaches it. So you just hate that teaching? Do you find it to be wrong? Immorral? How, therefore, do you reconcile your hatred of the content to those who teach it and embrace it? Is there no relationship at all?


36 posted on 04/12/2009 5:20:43 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

>>Which science are you talking about. Men teach things. Science is a word.

I need to define “science” for you? I will do so, if you wish.


37 posted on 04/12/2009 5:21:30 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: freedumb2003

Go ahead if that is what you feel a need to do.


38 posted on 04/12/2009 5:33:57 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: valkyry1
Spend sometime at your local zoo and watch a chimpanzee for awhile. You'll see what I mean. But he's as different from our common ancestor as we are. We didn't descend from him at all. We took different evolutionary paths.
39 posted on 04/12/2009 5:35:47 PM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NO, YOU CAN'T.)
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To: freedumb2003; Jaime2099

How do you reconcile your love of evolutionism with the truth of Bible.


40 posted on 04/12/2009 5:59:50 PM PDT by valkyry1
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To: Jaime2099

>>
My hatred is towards the words and theories that seek to destroy the foundations of the Bible and my God who wrote it through His servants. God said that He created Adam first, and wrote nothing of evolving Adam from an animal. To believe otherwise is to call His word false.

Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible. And, yes, I hate Human Evolution and I am not ashamed of it. I do not hate Human Evolutionist, I hate the false religion they have been taught. <

Good clarification. If you believe that evolution destroys the foundations of the bible then I understanding your feelings on the matter.

I could explain why I believe in evolution - it came from studying science. I could tell you about my personal conversion. I could explain in detail how I see much of the creation story as a parable appropriate for what the people of the say could understand with their limited math and science.

But that would miss the point.

We don’t have to agree on evolution. And you get to feel about it however you feel.

The question we do need (meaning we in the greater sense) come to a conclusion about is the implication of disagreeing.

I would hope we agree that in religious matters we can leave the government and most part science out - people are entitled to choose their religion and practice it in public whether its praying quietly even in a public school or a town deciding to have a Christmas tree.

Likewise, I would hope that we agree in matters of science and science education policy should be determined by the scientific consensus. For quite some time a strong consensus among the people who study it, say the evidence points to the gradual development of man, not creation and that’s what the schools should teach.


41 posted on 04/12/2009 7:09:32 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: valkyry1
How do you reconcile your love of evolutionism with the truth of Bible.

I shall await answers to my questions, else I will for sure get lost in the conversation.

But thank you for your interest.

42 posted on 04/12/2009 7:35:50 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1

Please read the whole thing as it also addresses TToE. Thank you and I hope you had a blessed Easter!

From: http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-3.htm

It continues to amaze me how many “educated” people do not understand what Science* is or what is meant by the term “scientific method.” The statements of Nobel Prize physicist Percy W. Bridgman1 shows that such ignorance shows no regard for academic stature when he states, “No working scientist, when he plans an experiment in the laboratory, asks himself whether he is being properly scientific, nor is he interested in whatever method he may be using as method.” What arrogance!2

One of the best descriptions and explanations of the current concept of scientific method is interestingly found in the Appendix E of Frank Wolfs’ website .3

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

But in order to realize whether this is a valid concept or not, we need to understand what Science really is. Here is a typical dictionary definition of Science: “The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.”4

Science on the other hand is an interesting definition in that it previously has applied to those fields of study which utilize the scientific method. For physics and chemistry, this is easy, but when we get into archeology, psychology, geology, environmental studies, and so on, the use of scientific methodology becomes less applicable but yet aren’t these still Science? What about archeology where even though one can not perform repeatable experiments we can yet validate hypotheses?

Let’s say that I am an archeologist and that I hypothesize that an ancient culture “X” existed based upon a piece of pottery that I had found and I further hypothesize various characteristics of this culture. Later it is found that I was correct in my hypothesis through continued validation from other findings. I then hypothesize that any culture that can make such pottery will have a high lead content in their remains. Again this is found to be true. These hypotheses have now become theories as they have been verified yet they did not follow the definition of scientific method nor could they. This is Science.

Some may say that in archeology, we use carbon-14 dating (or similar process) which does follow the scientific method. Though archeology does utilize some aspects of other sciences that do follow the scientific method, this is archeology’s use of physics. It is the physics that is following the scientific method in this case, not archeology.

The scientific method is fine for experimentation but it is inadequate in determining what is Science. In the past if a discipline could not be subject to the scientific method, it was not Science. Therefore, I would like to propose that the scientific method should only be applied to experimentation when appropriate and not be used in the determination of what is or is not science, nor should it have any application in defining what is a hypothesis, theory, fact, or law.**

In terms of the definition of what is or is not a Science, we need to find a definition that is timeless and few could argue against. One of the best way to understand the current definition of something is to look at its history (ignorance of the past will lead to mistakes of the future5) but I will leave that for a book on the subject because even though it is engrossing reading, it can get lengthy. I would like to propose that we define Science as the “the field of study which attempts to describe and understand the nature of the universe in whole or part.”* Though simple, it is an encompassing and elegant definition, as we will see.

Therefore those fields of study which attempt to describe and understand the nature of the universe on a “whole” scale such as physics and chemistry would fit our definition but so would those fields which study it in “part” such as biology whose field has been limited to only those life forms on Earth. Archeology attempts to describe and understand the fossil and archeological record (a part of the universe) and this understanding includes what its function, purpose, state of existence, etc. was. The archeological example previously given also shows how a hypothesis, theory, and fact can develop in the field of archeology...all without using the scientific method.


43 posted on 04/12/2009 7:41:23 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: valkyry1; Jaime2099

See? I got confused because I was awaiting J2099’s answer to my prior question.

I do hope my provided definition of science is helpful. And Mr. J2099, I do await your answer.

I hope you, also, had a blessed Easter.

And to both of you, please do keep in mind that I have advanced no statements, belief or otherwise, on any theories nor belief systems. I have asked questions to clarify your earlier posts.

Your answers cheerfully awaited.


44 posted on 04/12/2009 7:44:42 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: gondramB
"Likewise, I would hope that we agree in matters of science and science education policy should be determined by the scientific consensus. For quite some time a strong consensus among the people who study it, say the evidence points to the gradual development of man, not creation and that’s what the schools should teach."

There is simply not enough proof for Human Evolution in order to teach children in school that it is a fact. It is merely an educated guess at best. No one can legitimately exclude it as being part of religion because if it is true, it disproves the Bible and that is a very serious matter that involves religion. Hiding this does not make it go away. Human Evolution's teachings prove the Bible wrong and it is undeniable, and it's religious context is unavoidable.

It appears you believe science and religion are different and should be separated, but Human Evolution and religion cannot be separated. If it is chosen to be in science, then religion has been added to science. And, if religion has been added to science, then how can creationism be left out?

Human Evolution is "proof" that the Bible is inaccurate. Teaching it in science to children is the equivalent of telling them that the Bible is false. This is religion and science mixed together, yet creationists have no say. By adding Human Evolution to a science curriculum, the barrier of science and religion has already been breached. To add creationism to the curriculum as well will simply balance out the scales.
45 posted on 04/12/2009 7:52:39 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: freedumb2003
I don’t know how to take that. As I said the RCC teaches it. So you just hate that teaching? Do you find it to be wrong? Immorral? How, therefore, do you reconcile your hatred of the content to those who teach it and embrace it? Is there no relationship at all?

You're fishing, nothing more. You say nothing of your own belief, nor do you refute what I say. You are simply trying to lay some childish trap. I've already answered your question, if you don't understand my answer, then you wouldn't understand yet another answer to the same question.

I am interested in your answer to valkyry1's post.
46 posted on 04/12/2009 7:59:33 PM PDT by Jaime2099 (Human Evolution and the God of the Bible are not compatible)
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To: Jaime2099
Well see these most fit got the supremes to rule they are most fit to survive off the children. Jesus did have a few things to say about those that sit in the seat of Moses.

So we really cannot be all that surprised how far ‘out’ on a limb some will go, as we are told there is nothing ‘new’ under the ‘sun’. And this ‘knowledge’ has been being preached since that snake whispered into the woman's ear....

47 posted on 04/12/2009 8:03:48 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Jaime2099
You're fishing, nothing more. You say nothing of your own belief, nor do you refute what I say. You are simply trying to lay some childish trap. I've already answered your question, if you don't understand my answer, then you wouldn't understand yet another answer to the same question.

You really have not answered my question. It was quite explicit and, I assure you, represents no "trap." Thanks in advance for answering.

48 posted on 04/12/2009 8:05:02 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks.)
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To: Jaime2099

>>There is simply not enough proof for Human Evolution in order to teach children in school that it is a fact. It is merely an educated guess at best. No one can legitimately exclude it as being part of religion because if it is true, it disproves the Bible and that is a very serious matter that involves religion. Hiding this does not make it go away. Human Evolution’s teachings prove the Bible wrong and it is undeniable, and it’s religious context is unavoidable.<<

We know we disagree about whether evolution is the most likely explanation (since theories are never “proved” in science, unlike math).

The question I was addressing was whether we let the scientific community and the consensus therein determine how science is taught. I think science should determine science education.

Now when it comes to how to use science, I see an important role for ethics, and morals, which for me come from religion. But when we teach kids what the modern scientific theory on something is, we ought to tell them the truth.

And the truth is, whether one agrees or not, the scientific community is firmly convinced that men developed from simpler creatures.


49 posted on 04/12/2009 8:07:40 PM PDT by gondramB
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To: freedumb2003

Actually you have advanced several things. You ask questions, then supply your own answers about the person. Or you think you are clever by putting a question mark at the end of your assertion, or posing it as several questions.


50 posted on 04/12/2009 8:11:08 PM PDT by valkyry1
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