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The gun lobby's flawed logic is riddled with bullet holes
New York Daily ^ | Monday, April 13th 2009, | Stanley Crouch

Posted on 04/13/2009 10:12:45 AM PDT by presidio9

If John Travolta, an avid user of his private jet and a reported Republican, were to be stopped by law from purchasing an armed fighter plane, would the film actor suddenly be surrounded by the same people who sanctimoniously claim that the Constitution protects the private citizen's right to buy and own an assault rifle?

That seems an absurd question, but we often find ourselves in absurd circumstances when we get to the gun issue. A hard fact leers before us: on the subject of guns, constitutional meaning and misinterpretation have been mixed together for so long that far too many people think our Constitution advocates things that it does not.

Confusion over history and the law are not new, but our trouble with gun ownership truly stands apart from the rules of how things are usually done.

In our democratic history a process leading to important policy changes has appeared over and over. It reveals a sense of ongoing injustice and the proof of blood sacrifice made by those who experience pain, mental suffering and death resulting from abusive policy.

The sequence of events is fairly simple: Something terribly wrong is discovered, it is then studied, conclusions are reached and a case is made for better laws being drafted.

Once the issue is raised into plain sight, the proverbial ball starts rolling.

Our attempts to create a mature and rational gun policy have not gone well. The lobby representing the NRA has had so much sway over Congress that the politicians run for cover rather than get on the lobby's enemies list. If they do, reelection becomes much harder.

The trouble has nothing to do with the right to hunt or the right to own a weapon for self-protection. The trouble is that any change is interpreted with the logic of a survivalist. Any limitations on what can and cannot be bought, can or cannot be stockpiled, are indisputable proof that "they" are taking our rights away and making us so docile or so vulnerable that "we" will be pushovers when the marching boots arrive and strip us of our liberty.

What is most startling about it all is how invulnerable that species of thought is to true domestic terrorism and lunatic slayings. The logic of freelance survivalists in government or the gun lobby is made ridiculous by the blood sacrifice all around us.

There is no civilized or reasonable reaction to all of the murders committed by urban street gangs or the highly publicized nuts so isolated from reality that killing becomes a terrifying way of getting attention or proving your alienation from others.

Add the fact that purported supporters of law and order manage to ignore the legions in law enforcement who oppose the sale of assault weapons to the citizenry. Why would they not? They know all of the details about the urban terrorism of street gangs and the tragedies unleashed by armed loons. We can add in the documented fact that weapons bought at unmonitored gun fairs are arming Mexican drug dealers who will end up fighting American troops very soon. Makes no difference. There is always a cost to following the Constitution. Enough said.

But not quite. Perhaps money is the real answer. I think that Russell Simmons, Arianna Huffington, George Soros and other limousine liberals should gather their forces and raise enough money from the wealthy who are actually interested in our civilization. With enough money, they just might be able to put a hole in the bucket of the gun lobby.

Worse things have been tried.

crouch.stanley@gmail.com


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; 2ndammendment; banglist; barackobama; crouch; democrats; donttreadonme; flawedlogic; gunban; huffington; johntravolta; liberalbias; nra; obama; pelosi; secondamendment; shallnotbeinfringed; simmons; soros; stanleycrouch
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Flawed logic? Where to begin...
1 posted on 04/13/2009 10:12:45 AM PDT by presidio9
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To: presidio9

Must disarm the people because they may revolt when they find out where the “stimulus monies”, Social Security, Treasury funds, ad nauseum went. Does the government rule us or are they to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the republic?


2 posted on 04/13/2009 10:17:39 AM PDT by BipolarBob (I shoot only after kindness fails.)
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To: presidio9
If John Travolta ... were to be stopped by law from purchasing an armed fighter plane

Irrelevant non-sequitor hypothetical.

John Travolta, and any other US citizen with enough money, is NOT stopped by law from purchasing an armed fighter plane. The paperwork might be a bit annoying, and finding a seller could be difficult, but it's entirely legal.

3 posted on 04/13/2009 10:17:52 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (John Galt was exiled.)
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To: presidio9

“There is no civilized or reasonable reaction to all of the murders committed by urban street gangs..”

Restricting gun ownership for law abiding people is a reasonable response?


4 posted on 04/13/2009 10:18:14 AM PDT by y6162
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To: presidio9
Perhaps we should have laws against killing folks - I'm sure these criminals will follow THOSE laws just as well as the would follow any gun laws you care to mention.

Oh, wait....

5 posted on 04/13/2009 10:18:24 AM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: presidio9
There is always a cost to following the Constitution

Freedom is NOT free, Stanley.

6 posted on 04/13/2009 10:18:36 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: presidio9

They are ramping up the propaganda for the smelly ones visit to mexico

Propaganda push
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123956205887011615.html
Liars we can’t buy those guns
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2009/tle512-20090329-05.html
Piglosi makes it clear
http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d8-Pelosi-made-it-official-to-ABC-We-want-registration
Persuade the public
http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d9-Press-partisanship-gets-ugly-in-revived-gun-rights-debate
Goons


7 posted on 04/13/2009 10:18:43 AM PDT by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: presidio9

“With enough money, they just might be able to put a hole in the bucket of the gun lobby. “

That might lead to Soros and followers getting more holes than they expected in places not thought of .


8 posted on 04/13/2009 10:19:12 AM PDT by Renegade (You go tell my buddies)
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To: presidio9
If John Travolta, an avid user of his private jet and a reported Republican, were to be stopped by law from purchasing an armed fighter plane, would the film actor suddenly be surrounded by the same people who sanctimoniously claim that the Constitution protects the private citizen's right to buy and own an assault rifle?

The Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, not the delivery system for those arms. And that's what a fighter plane is. Now, if you want to remove the 20mm cannon and the Sidewinders to use independently, you'd have an argument to pursue.

9 posted on 04/13/2009 10:19:47 AM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: presidio9

Who wants to be a fire engine???

10 posted on 04/13/2009 10:22:30 AM PDT by bolobaby
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To: Izzy Dunne

“There is no civilized or reasonable reaction to all of the murders committed by urban street gang”

Urban street gangs, like Somali pirates, have a successful business model.


11 posted on 04/13/2009 10:23:00 AM PDT by y6162
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To: presidio9

I can say the same thing for sodomy. How mnny have died and are suffering from STD because bars and hotels encouraged their meetings for pickup and orgies???? Would the liberals punish the bars and hotels, and put limits on gay activities????


12 posted on 04/13/2009 10:24:25 AM PDT by Fee (Peace, prosperity, jobs and common sense)
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To: bolobaby

I don’t know, but I suddenly have an urge to visit a Jaguar dealership.


13 posted on 04/13/2009 10:24:29 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: presidio9
There is no civilized or reasonable reaction to all of the murders committed by urban street gangs or the highly publicized nuts so isolated from reality that killing becomes a terrifying way of getting attention or proving your alienation from others.

Add the fact that purported supporters of law and order manage to ignore the legions in law enforcement who oppose the sale of assault weapons to the citizenry. Why would they not? They know all of the details about the urban terrorism of street gangs and the tragedies unleashed by armed loons. We can add in the documented fact that weapons bought at unmonitored gun fairs are arming Mexican drug dealers who will end up fighting American troops very soon. Makes no difference. There is always a cost to following the Constitution. Enough said.

So many lies, so little time.

First, no problems with urban street gangs in my well armed neighborhood. Perhaps if they quit 'highly publicizing' the nuts, they would go away.

I know 'legions' of law enforcement who support so-called assualt weapons, own them and encourage civilians to own them.

It's been pretty well proven that whatever 'unmonitored gun fair' the Mexican cartels are buying their weapons at, is not in Texas, New Mexico or Arizona.

14 posted on 04/13/2009 10:26:06 AM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: presidio9

Indeed. The 2A isn’t about grandpa’s shotgun. Its about fighting to retake the government.


15 posted on 04/13/2009 10:26:09 AM PDT by SampleMan (Socialism and Liberty are mutually exclusive.)
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To: presidio9

“If John Travolta, an avid user of his private jet and a reported Republican, were to be stopped by law from purchasing an armed fighter plane, would the film actor suddenly be surrounded by the same people who sanctimoniously claim that the Constitution protects the private citizen’s right to buy and own an assault rifle?”

Yes, even if he were a reported democrat. And how do we know what arms he has on his plane now?


16 posted on 04/13/2009 10:28:15 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: SJSAMPLE

I was thinking more along the lines of Saab... just to see if they’ve got some Mirage fighters sitting around gathering dust.


17 posted on 04/13/2009 10:29:38 AM PDT by Renderofveils (My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music. - Nabokov)
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To: presidio9

Well, here’s some equally stupid logic... what if someone used a Toyota Prius to run through a crowd of people, they could probably kill a few dozen folks before they were stopped. Then we would have to ban hybrid vehicles, however the Green Lobby wouldn’t stand for that!!! What a pickle. Gimme a break.

-”Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty, teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon and citizens’ firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that’s good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour.” - George Washington


18 posted on 04/13/2009 10:29:46 AM PDT by John.Galt2012
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To: presidio9

“Russell Simmons, Arianna Huffington, George Soros and other limousine liberals should gather their forces and raise enough money from the wealthy who are actually interested in our civilization.”

Imagine its 1938 and someone proposes a commission composed of Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and Tojo to save civilization.


19 posted on 04/13/2009 10:30:39 AM PDT by Hacklehead (Liberalism is the art of taking what works, breaking it, and then blaming conservatives.)
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To: ctdonath2

Three words: Confederate Air Force (though they were being overcome by political correctness and were going to drop the evil word “Confederate”-—don’t know if they did or not).


20 posted on 04/13/2009 10:31:04 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog ( The Hog of Steel)
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To: y6162
Restricting gun ownership for law abiding people is a reasonable response?

Ya gotta roll that proverbial ball. The topic of this article is as dead a cliche as the article itself.

21 posted on 04/13/2009 10:31:20 AM PDT by Skid Marx
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To: presidio9
We can add in the documented fact that weapons bought at unmonitored gun fairs are arming Mexican drug dealers who will end up fighting American troops very soon.

I think this fellow needs to stop smoking crack.

22 posted on 04/13/2009 10:32:09 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: Renderofveils

Then, you really need to see the movie “Crazy People”, where Dudley Moore and asylum inmates come up with some very funny ad campaigns.

Particularly, and advertisement for Jaguar that really resounds with men.


23 posted on 04/13/2009 10:33:32 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: buccaneer81; presidio9
The Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, not the delivery system for those arms.

You beat me to it - I was about to say something similar, such as:

The Second Amendment guarantees our individual right to keep and bear (carry) arms. It does not address at all the issue of arms which are designed to bear (carry) us... /g

24 posted on 04/13/2009 10:35:19 AM PDT by tarheelswamprat
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To: presidio9
I think that Russell Simmons, Arianna Huffington, George Soros and other limousine liberals should gather their forces and raise enough money from the wealthy who are actually interested in destroying our civilization.

(He forgot a word.)

25 posted on 04/13/2009 10:35:37 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: presidio9

This author’s lament is a direct result of the sneaky and underhanded anti-gun agenda. Maybe gun owners would acquiesce to a few “reasonable” restrictions....if they didn’t know for a fact that the endgame of those pushing this agenda is an outright ban. Would a cow take a few “reasonable” steps toward the slaughterhouse?


26 posted on 04/13/2009 10:36:20 AM PDT by domenad (In all things, in all ways, at all times, let honor guide me.)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
Today's bleat from the


27 posted on 04/13/2009 10:36:23 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: presidio9

Where to begin? I would almost have to address every sentence. Most are fundamentally flawed in logic.

Here is a snippet, “logic of freelance survivalists in government or the gun lobby is made ridiculous by the blood sacrifice all around us.” When responding to the anti-human rights arguments, we often must respond to statements that are so obviously wrong, nearly opposite from reality and sense, that we are concerned that any response we make will not be understood in fear that the person making the statement does not understand even basic concepts or logic. The blood sacrifice is being made by victims of criminals and insane people. Such sacrifices are made more likely by the defenseless nature of the victims. It is so obvious that even low forms of life have defense mechanisms and must use them to the best of their abilities, that it is stunning to read someone claim that individuals who choose to defend themselves in an effective manner, are a threat. It makes no sense.

In the article, the writer makes an analogy between fighter jets and assault weapons and implies that no regular person should have either AND claims this is not about self-defense. That is a rather bizarre argument given the writer mentions the insanity killings in which handguns (the basic tool of self-defense) were used. Those killings didn’t have anything to do with “assault weapons”.

Crouch also claims the Constitution does not state what a lot of people think it states. Gun owners know what the Constitution states—gun owners know the Constitution—they know it doesn’t imply what S. Crouch is trying to imply.

The writer ends by hoping that some mega-rich bad guys step up to crush the self-defense freedom regular folks. S. Crouch is solidly in the pen with evil.

By the way, how are those tens of thousands of gun laws working? You really don’t care, do you S. Crouch? This is all about creating a myth so the population will clamor to have their rights removed, isn’t it S. Crouch? Are you honest enough to admit it?


28 posted on 04/13/2009 10:44:49 AM PDT by iacovatx (If you must lie to recruit to your cause, you are fighting for the wrong side.)
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To: SampleMan
"Indeed. The 2A isn’t about grandpa’s shotgun. Its about fighting to retake the government."

This is why I've always felt that you could have more of an argument banning a shotgun than banning M-16s. The M-16 is the true second amendment arm. These, AK-47's, SKS's are true arms for the purpose of the second amendment. To protect against government tyranny.
29 posted on 04/13/2009 10:49:07 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: presidio9

You have to register to reply there, so I’ll have to reply here instead. I hope Mr. Crouch lurks here.

You are apparently assuming that taking my guns away will make you or someone else safer. Well, it will make the criminals who choose to target me safer, and Obama’s civilian security force safer. But how will it make you safer?

What will it do to disarm criminal individuals or gangs? Nothing. They never have obeyed the law.

Should I be forced out of the law-abiding-citizen category by declining to give up my second amendment rights, will you or other law abiding citizens be in any danger? Or do you intend to be one of the ones at risk, Obama’s new version of the SA?

The second amendment is specifically targeted at out of control government, that is why statists such as yourself are uncomfortable with it.

If a citizen wants and can afford a fully armed military aircraft, it is none of my business; I will not be the one trampling his rights to the point where he feels the necessity to use it.


30 posted on 04/13/2009 10:50:38 AM PDT by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., how many girls did you drown today?" TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: ctdonath2

I think Travolta DOES have a fighter plane..actually.


31 posted on 04/13/2009 10:53:47 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (I think you're so full of inconsolable rage, you don't care who you hurt.)
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To: ctdonath2
Here ya go .... Third world ground attack plane ....

Photobucket

Then of course there was the Cessna T37 "Tweety Bird" Photobucket

32 posted on 04/13/2009 10:54:18 AM PDT by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: presidio9

With enough money, they just might be able to put a hole in the bucket of the gun lobby.


Don't bring a c note to a gun fight...

33 posted on 04/13/2009 11:03:05 AM PDT by EdReform (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed *NRA*JPFO*SAF*GOA*SAS*CCRKBA)
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To: ctdonath2
seller could be difficult, but it's entirely legal.

Actually not. There are planes that are not allowed for domestic consumption. Even if you have the money ($240,000,000) you are not allowed to buy a sukhoi su 25, 27, 34, etc. and the Russians won't sell you one. Even some of the outdated US stuff such as the OV-10D is forbidden to us citizens. You can buy an unarmed YAK from russia, but I understand that they've stopped producing those due to lack of demand.

34 posted on 04/13/2009 11:04:20 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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To: presidio9

I am done with arguing the point. Come and try to take them.


35 posted on 04/13/2009 11:04:56 AM PDT by HattonFarmer (Fear the government that fears your gun.)
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To: Armedanddangerous

[click click]
John Travolta owns a MiG-29.

Buying a GE MiniGun and mounting it thereon would not be a problem, given a couple forms and a $200 tax.


36 posted on 04/13/2009 11:06:58 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (John Galt was exiled.)
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To: presidio9

What high school newspaper did this editorial appear in?


37 posted on 04/13/2009 11:06:58 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: presidio9

Well, if anyone is familiar with flawed logic, it’s this guy.


38 posted on 04/13/2009 11:08:36 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: HattonFarmer

Notice the author’s reference to “reasonable” restrictions being met with slippery slope arguments and people getting their backs up out of a paranoia that all gun rights will be removed if we give them an inch.

I wonder where this person stands on partial birth abortion, born alive infant protection, parental notification, etc...

I’m betting they oppose all of those as if they each were a foot in the door to ban abortion.


39 posted on 04/13/2009 11:10:30 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: from occupied ga

The point was whether US law would/could prohibit such a purchase, given a manufacturer (such items ARE made domestically) and enough money. As I just noted above, Travolta _does_ own a MiG, and buying & mounting suitable armament is mostly just a matter, again, of money & seller availability.

The challenge was purchase of items in a general category, not specific models thereof which suffer contractual, not legal, restrictions.


40 posted on 04/13/2009 11:13:54 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (John Galt was exiled.)
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To: presidio9
If ever the SHTF, this writer is one of the first people that must be taken out. Cowards like this will trade your freedom for their safety and never think twice about it.
41 posted on 04/13/2009 11:16:19 AM PDT by Niteranger68 (As 0bama punishes us, we are punishing his supporters ten fold.)
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To: tarheelswamprat; buccaneer81; presidio9

If I recall correctly from my readings several years ago, at the time the Second Amendment was written the word “arms” referred to weapons typically employed by individual soldiers (i.e. rifles, pistols, knives). At that time, large crew served weapons was referred to as “ordnance”. The founding fathers were very intelligent men and used words with precision, a concept some of our fellow contemporary Americans could could learn from.


42 posted on 04/13/2009 11:17:18 AM PDT by Red Dog #1
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To: SkyDancer

Wasn’t there an armed version of the T-37 called the Dragonfly? Just wondering. Thanks, in advance, for your assistance.


43 posted on 04/13/2009 11:17:31 AM PDT by 12Gauge687 (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice)
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To: presidio9

This reads like an essay for English class from a junior high school student who is trying to impress the teacher by using big, important-sounding words.


44 posted on 04/13/2009 11:17:41 AM PDT by savedbygrace (You are only leading if someone follows. Otherwise, you just wandered off... [Smokin' Joe])
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To: presidio9

I wouldn’t even begin with passes for flawed logic. I would begin with his writing style. Does that newspaper even have an editor? Or did they publish him without editing to make him look utterly foolish?

“If John Travolta, an avid user of his private jet and a reported Republican...” Eek!

An avid user of his private car and a reported actor?

“A hard fact leers before us...”

Is it, well, turgid? Excited? A sexually aroused voyeuristic fact?

“...but our trouble with gun ownership truly stands apart from the rules of how things are usually done.”

How far is your trouble from your rules, say, in inches?

“In our democratic history a process leading to important policy changes has appeared over and over. It reveals a sense of ongoing injustice and the proof of blood sacrifice made by those who experience pain, mental suffering and death resulting from abusive policy.”

WTF? I mean, seriously, WTF is he talking about?

“...proverbial ball starts rolling.”

And which proverb would that be?

“The logic of freelance survivalists...”

As opposed to survivalist contract employees?

“There is no civilized or reasonable reaction to all of the murders committed by urban street gangs or the highly publicized nuts so isolated from reality that killing becomes a terrifying way of getting attention or proving your alienation from others.”

Well, uh, actually there is. If you can, you arrest them. If you can’t, then you stop them with other means. Citizens and police do this all the time. It is perfectly civilized and reasonable.

“We can add in the documented fact that weapons bought at unmonitored gun fairs are arming Mexican drug dealers...”

Here, I’m actually surprised that he didn’t cite the bogus “90%” figure. He probably assumes that everyone else already knows that false “fact”.

“I think that Russell Simmons, Arianna Huffington, George Soros and other limousine liberals should gather their forces and raise enough money from the wealthy who are actually interested in our civilization.”

Well, George Soros for one consistently bets *against* our civilization, but other than him, there is quite likely a goodly number of wealthy people who are “pro-civilization”. Like, what good is a billion dollars if you wear animal furs and live in a cave?

“With enough money, they just might be able to put a hole in the bucket of the gun lobby.”

Because as everybody knows, there is nothing like money for putting holes in buckets. Probably some acid in the ink or something. And believe you me, if my bucket had holes in it, you can bet your bottom dollar I wouldn’t be lobbying for gun rights. Huh?


45 posted on 04/13/2009 11:18:31 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: 12Gauge687

Yes, just like the other plane - some countries in S.America used them for close air support .... I think (will have to ask my dad) they were also used in Vietnam by the Vietnamese for ground support ....


46 posted on 04/13/2009 11:22:54 AM PDT by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: presidio9
Our attempts to create a mature and rational gun policy have not gone well.

It works perfectly via a God given right via the Constitution.

It's the attempts to create an alternate policy that f%$ks everything up.

47 posted on 04/13/2009 11:25:56 AM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, Question everyone else)
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To: presidio9
Worse things have been tried.

Yeah, this is just like 1993 all over again. And 2010 is gonna be a lot like 1994, in that the Democrats will probably be kicked out of both houses of Congress, just because of stupid limo liberals trying, again and again, to deny us this fundamental right.

This time, however, we have the Heller decision on our side.

48 posted on 04/13/2009 11:27:22 AM PDT by Kenton (Packing my hollowpoints with pig fat since 2001)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Confederate Air Force

CAF

In it's true form. : )

Sorry....

49 posted on 04/13/2009 11:28:29 AM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, Question everyone else)
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To: presidio9
I think that Russell Simmons, Arianna Huffington, George Soros and other limousine liberals should gather their forces and raise enough money from the wealthy who are actually interested in our civilization. With enough money, they just might be able to put a hole in the bucket of the gun lobby.

Ahm, the second amendment stands in their way so far..

50 posted on 04/13/2009 11:33:07 AM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, Question everyone else)
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